Addition of Han Chinese to 0AD

[Yekaterina]

Many thanks to @Stan` for creating this mod. It would be great if we can integrate Han as a formal civ into the next release A25 as they had been a major player in the world's history around 0AD. Hopefully the addition of this civ will attract more potential players. Currently the structure tree of the Chinese civ has already been determined and all of its features have been implemented in this mod: https://github.com/0ADMods/han_china

I hereby call upon the balancing advisors @borg- @ValihrAnt @LetswaveaBook @maroder @badosu @Feldfeld @Player of 0AD (sorry if I didn't mention you) to give suggestions on tweaking the unit stats so that they are ready for implementation in the next alpha. There are some quite unique units from this civ and therefore we need to adapt them so that they are a fun civ to play with while being appropriately strong in comparison to the others. 

I have made improvements to the Chinese language packs to make this more a realistic and authentic experience, while hopefully the game will become more accessible to Chinese speakers out there.  

EDIT: Stan: Here is a package version of the mod compatible with A24han_china.pyromod

[Yekaterina]

It must be said that this version is dramatically different to the Terra Magna mod for A23; the stats for basic infantry and cavalry units utilise the standard values across A24 civs. The uniqueness lies in the crossbow champion units, unique ranged siege and government ministers. 

Please download the mod from github, extract it and put the extracted folder into the mod folder. Once enabled you can see the structure tree. 

The focus is at the champion crossbow units and the new siege weapons. Currently the champions and heroes are trained from the fortress. Should they be moved to the stable instead? One can also take a look at the xml files and edit them.

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Many thanks to @Stan` for creating this mod. It would be great if we can integrate Han as a formal civ into the next release A25 as they had been a major player in the world's history around 0AD. Hopefully the addition of this civ will attract more potential players. Currently the structure tree of the Chinese civ has already been determined and all of its features have been implemented in this mod: https://github.com/0ADMods/han_china

I hereby call upon the balancing advisors @borg- @ValihrAnt @LetswaveaBook @maroder @badosu @Feldfeld @Player of 0AD (sorry if I didn't mention you) to give suggestions on tweaking the unit stats so that they are ready for implementation in the next alpha. There are some quite unique units from this civ and therefore we need to adapt them so that they are a fun civ to play with while being appropriately strong in comparison to the others. 

I have made improvements to the Chinese language packs to make this more a realistic and authentic experience, while hopefully the game will become more accessible to Chinese speakers out there.  

that is what we are trying to do.

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/22832-faction-nomads-xiongnu/?do=

[Yekaterina]

5 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

that is what we are trying to do.

Good to hear. Stan has made quite some progress. Meanwhile I try to get the Chinese language pack sorted.

[Yekaterina]

I have played the Terra magna mod for A23 but there are a few key differences between the Han in there and the Han in Stan's version

Some units are missing while some units are added in. It seems like a more rounded civ now as opposed to the weak in early phase and OP in late phase one in terra magna

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Good to hear. Stan has made quite some progress. Meanwhile I try to get the Chinese language pack sorted.

I'm not sure what he needs but we could help him because of time constraints, for that, but that's what the CoM exists for.

@Lopess can help.

I'm just ideas/artist 2D. (One founders of CoM) In fact with the help of Stanislas, NiekTB we resurrected the China mod (Rise of the East) around 2011...2013

[Yekaterina]

The problem with Terra Magna is that the balancing is poor... China was way too OP for their women had 75 heath and their catapults have no packing time. Meanwhile the Xiongnu were too weak, especially in late phase because they had almost no siege and no defensive structures...

Zapotecs were fine but lacked a bit in variation...

This is why I call the balancing advisors to discuss the stat tweaks so that we won't get OP or UP civs

[Yekaterina]

All other aspects of the civ are pretty much finished, just the balancing and unit stats. I can take care of the labels and Stan has done a good job on the rest

[Lion.Kanzen]

5 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

The problem with Terra Magna is that the balancing is poor... China was way too OP for their women had 75 heath and their catapults have no packing time. Meanwhile the Xiongnu were too weak, especially in late phase because they had almost no siege and no defensive structures...

Zapotecs were fine but lacked a bit in variation...

This is why I call the balancing advisors to discuss the stat tweaks so that we won't get OP or UP civs

It must be taken into account that China is the only one finished.

 

The rest are playable concepts.

 

So it was 0 A.D between Alpha 6 and alpha 20.

[Yekaterina]

2 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

It must be taken into account that China is the only one finished.

 

Let's implement China first then, but using Stan's version as his looks more compatible and balanced already.

[Freagarach]

Keep in mind the history department needs to give their "go" as well (@Nescio, @Genava55, @Thorfinn the Shallow Minded @rest).

[Genava55]

Personally, I am in favor to include them at some point. 

[Stan`]

They weren't included in A24 for various reasons but I think it's time for A25 even if they are not 100% perfect.

There will be more incentive to make them better if they are in the game than if they aren't

It might attract artists that are into asian civilizations.

It might also attract historian interested in such civs.

There is no way it will be ever be balanced properly as a mod.

It's cool civ, it's long due. I worked a lot on it too and so did a lot of people.

It also breaks the thirteen number of civs :p

[Carltonus]

10 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

It looks like some of the icons on the structure tree needs updating, more specifically the cavalry. The champion and citizen swordsman/archer icons are swapped and/or in the wrong class colors.

Don't recall a female as an icon of a male hero as well.

Have all the anachronisms (like the Qing flags and banners) been fixed?

[Stan`]

4 minutes ago, Carltonus said:

Have all the anachronisms (like the Qing flags and banners) been fixed?

No and honestly unless you find someone to fix them I don't think they will.

4 minutes ago, Carltonus said:

It looks like some of the icons on the structure tree needs updating, more specifically the cavalry. The champion and citizen swordsman/archer icons are swapped and/or in the wrong class colors.

@wowgetoffyourcellphone ?

 

[Yekaterina]

This is the Han flag. If @Stan` can make a model for this then I can implement it by editing the xml files?

56 minutes ago, Carltonus said:

It looks like some of the icons on the structure tree needs updating, more specifically the cavalry. The champion and citizen swordsman/archer icons are swapped and/or in the wrong class colors.

I am not sure what you mean but I think the models look decent enough for now. 

[Stan`]

Problem is this dragon

[Nescio]

While I would love to see the Han included in 0 A.D., I don't think they're ready for inclusion yet. Sure, they're more complete than other candidates, however, they're qualitatively inferior to the civilizations in game. Balance isn't the issue, art is. The mod as is contains things from much later dynasties, such as the Song (AD 960–1279), Ming (1368–1644), and Qing (1636–1912). Furthermore, some structures need to be redesigned (see this thread), a Bactrian camel needs to be added (dromedaries don't live in Central Asia), and unit textures deserve a critical look (currently it's very hard to see the player colour).

[Lopess]

5 minutes ago, Nescio said:

While I would love to see the Han included in 0 A.D., I don't think they're ready for inclusion yet. Sure, they're more complete than other candidates, however, they're qualitatively inferior to the civilizations in game. Balance isn't the issue, art is. The mod as is contains things from much later dynasties, such as the Song (AD 960–1279), Ming (1368–1644), and Qing (1636–1912). Furthermore, some structures need to be redesigned (see this thread), a Bactrian camel needs to be added (dromedaries don't live in Central Asia), and unit textures deserve a critical look (currently it's very hard to see the player colour).

My two cents. There is no greater motivation for these adjustments to be made than their inclusion in an alpha, in my view.Ask the main questions about the spotlight (you have already done a good job with references in the quoted topic). Ex: I believe that a corral does not change much in some centuries, but if there are things that should not be there, they can and should be removed, but without sacrificing the entire model.

[Stan`]

9 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Balance isn't the issue, art is.

I don't think any civ had perfect art before they made it in the game. According to some people the Mauryas are not really accurate, and we need to redo all the kushites roofs.

Some civs had placeholder buildings, so didn't even have a full roster.

 

10 minutes ago, Nescio said:

a Bactrian camel needs to be added (dromedaries don't live in Central Asia), and unit textures deserve a critical look (currently it's very hard to see the player colour).

Find me someone that can do that and sure. I see no one around able to make one.

 

[Nescio]

8 minutes ago, Stan` said:

I don't think any civ had perfect art before they made it in the game. According to some people the Mauryas are not really accurate, and we need to redo all the kushites roofs.

Some civs had placeholder buildings, so didn't even have a full roster.

Of course, not everything has to be perfect. However, blatant anachronisms or fantasy elements ought to be avoided. And it's very hard to get something changed once it's in game.

[Stan`]

2 minutes ago, Nescio said:

And it's very hard to get something changed once it's in game.

Really depends on what. Renaming 200 files and breaking all mods yeah Changing a 3D model or a texture to a better one not really.

[Nescio]

4 minutes ago, Stan` said:

Renaming 200 files and breaking all mods yeah

That's actually doable to get committed, A24 had several such changes.

5 minutes ago, Stan` said:

Changing a 3D model or a texture to a better one not really.

I meant art improvements, some examples I've requested more than once on these forums in the past. Britons and Gauls shouldn't have a donkey trader, Athenians and Spartans should. The SQPR ought to be removed from Roman wall textures. The Roman civic centre needs to be replaced. Macedonian dock. Wall towers.

I'm fully aware the art team is very small and can't do everything at once. However, when there are already so many things that still need to be improved, I don't think it's wise to include a lot more assets that really need to be replaced.

[Freagarach]

3 minutes ago, Nescio said:

That's actually doable to get committed, A24 had several such changes.

(And they were a pain. ^^ )

[Stan`]

Just now, Nescio said:

That's actually doable to get committed, A24 had several such changes.

Yeah, but admit it took a fair deal of investment from you and everyone in the team, @The Undying Nephalim @Exodarion can tell you Hyrule still hasn't recovered from it. We spent dozens of hours fixing stuff.

A24 also took two years.

3 minutes ago, Nescio said:

I meant art improvements, some examples I've requested more than once on these forums in the past. Britons and Gauls shouldn't have a donkey trader, Athenians and Spartans should.

If it's just using other assets you don't need artists for it, it's just XML.

Quote

The SQPR ought to be removed from Roman wall textures. The Roman civic centre needs to be replaced. Macedonian dock. Wall towers.

I've worked on new roman CC but never found anything good enough. Did we even agree on the layout? Wall towers is because they have windows right ?

Just now, Nescio said:

I'm fully aware the art team is very small and can't do everything at once. However, when there are already so many things that still need to be improved, I don't think it's wise to include a lot more assets that really need to be replaced.

Given it's the same team that maintain both, and that currently I'm the only artist left active, I don't see the difference...