Sparta Rework

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Since other civilisations have been getting their fair share of recognition, it seems fair to represent Sparta as well.  Here are a few ideas I have for further differentiation:

Remove the Theatron as it is not representative of Sparta.

Make palisade walls only accessible once the Town Phase has been reached to further emphasise their lack of reliance on walls.

Make the Syssition available in the Town Phase to allow them to produce Spartans earlier.

Have them start with a Skiritae unit instead of a horseman to demonstrate their abysmal cavalry capabilities.  Also they should perhaps not be able to train cavalry in the Village Phase.

Have them begin with a Spartan hoplite since Sparta had Spartans.

Make their helot units cheaper yet weaker.

[Lion.Kanzen]

What about slaves (helot) as ubique support unit (for now)?

Delenda Est have good approach to this mechanics.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

14 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

What about slaves (helot) as ubique support unit (for now)?

Ah yes.  That is a thing that has been mentioned a fair amount.  It's definitely valid.  Personally I could see the helot unit being available instead of the skirmisher variant from the Civic Centre.  Constructing a barracks would allow for the research of a technology that would allow the player to emancipate a helot unit into a νεοδαμώδεις instead, a skirmisher if we go with that route that would no longer gather but would fight reasonably well.  

[borg-]

Thanks for sharing your ideas.

1 hour ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Make their helot units cheaper yet weaker.

I like this.

 

1 hour ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Have them start with a Skiritae unit instead of a horseman to demonstrate their abysmal cavalry capabilities.

This is totally unviable. Without horses, cant hunt, very slow compared to other civilizations.

Edited April 8 by borg-

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

39 minutes ago, borg- said:

This is totally unviable. Without horses, cant hunt, very slow compared to other civilizations.

That was my concern as well, but perhaps there is a way around this.  First of all, should horsemen gather food at warp speed when it comes to hunting?  Personally I find the current rate a bit much.  Second, Sparta could compensate by having women gather hunt resources more efficiently.

Edited April 8 by Thorfinn the Shallow Minded

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

What I think:

Put a lot of focus on the Syssiton and Hoplites. Move Syssiton to village phase. It trains Spartiates and Heroes 1 phase early, and though they are slightly weaker in Town phase, they get a boost in City phase (probably an auto-researched tech). "Othismos" tech gives them an aura that boosts the armor and attack of fellow nearby Hoplites and Spartiates. (Delenda Est has this by default for all Hoplite class units, but if you want to differentiate the Spartans from the Athenians making it exclusive to Sparta could work). 

 

Unique gathering unit: Heilot. Economy revolves around this unit. Essentially a slave gatherer that can be upgraded to a javelineer if necessary. "Helot Emancipation" tech unlocks this ability (perhaps can choose between skirmisher or hoplite). "Messenian War" unlocks training Helots at Storehouse and Farmstead. "Krypteia Secret Police" unlocks an aura for Hoplites and Spartiates that improves Helot performance. This unit is capturable, as they aren't very loyal, for good reason.

Edited April 8 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[LetswaveaBook]

8 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Make their helot units cheaper yet weaker.

Helot should be mainly workers and having cheaper workers can have serious balance effects in a citizen soldier concept. I would like the idea, but we need a good clue how to keep balance in mind.

When reading on wikipedia about Sparta, I also found the something about the Spartan Hamosts and their garision. Maybe we can give the Spartans something unique in city phase to reflect the Spartan Dominance and rule after the Peloponnesian war.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

5 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

Helot should be mainly workers and having cheaper workers can have serious balance effects in a citizen soldier concept. I would like the idea, but we need a good clue how to keep balance in mind.

My proposal was a simple and conservative one: not ideal to my views, but a mere suggestion that some might like.  The inclusion of Helots at all is problematic for the citizen soldier concept since they were not citizens and were only occasionally soldiers.  The same of course goes for Perioikoi, leaving the ironic choice of the Spartan hoplite, both a citizen and a soldier not being a citizen-soldier.  

[badosu]

I think it would be nice to see sparta developed to an extreme, even if balance might be challenging. Making it mostly eco-driven run by helots could provide both a great differentiation value and be historically accurate.

[Stan`]

Can someone make a patch? / mod

[Palaxin]

10 hours ago, badosu said:

I think it would be nice to see sparta developed to an extreme, even if balance might be challenging. Making it mostly eco-driven run by helots could provide both a great differentiation value and be historically accurate.

for more extreme gameplay see also

for more historicality see

 

Edited April 11 by Palaxin

[borg-]

2 hours ago, Stan` said:

Can someone make a patch? / mod

I will do.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

A couple other thoughts:

Spartan women should maybe have a few more hitpoints.  A meagre increase of ten is a bit lackluster; I would say them starting with fifty would be more interesting.  Along with that it could be neat to see them have an aura like women did before that would increase the efficiency of helots (possibly other citizen soldiers too).  These could both come at an increased cost and training time.

All of this would better represent the legal rights Spartan women enjoyed alongside their mandatory training regimen.  

[LetswaveaBook]

3 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

A meagre increase of ten is a bit lackluster

after loom it is 20. Also they get 70 HP and 3 hack after that while costing like only half of a citizen soldier. So they aren´t really bad considering that 2 of them can take down a spearman.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

10 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

after loom it is 20. Also they get 70 HP and 3 hack after that while costing like only half of a citizen soldier. So they aren´t really bad considering that 2 of them can take down a spearman.

I was thinking along the lines of them ending with 80 after loom, but 70 is a good number to be fair.  An important point with that and the other change I would stress is that I'd like to see them costing a bit more, probably around 60-80 food or so to emphasise a quality over quantity.  

[Angen]

if you would want quality over quantity for women citizen, gather rates would need to go up as well, else you end up making women more costly and less efficient. 

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

2 hours ago, Angen said:

if you would want quality over quantity for women citizen, gather rates would need to go up as well, else you end up making women more costly and less efficient. 

That was why they could have an aura to help the collection rates of helots (or all citizen soldiers).  I would not see women making up the bulk of the Spartan economy, but their inclusion in strategic areas could provide a reasonable economic boost.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

14 hours ago, Angen said:

quality over quantity for women

I do like quality over quantity when it comes to women, indeed. 

[Angen]

would not reintroducing aura bring back discussion that the aura is sexist? 

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

19 minutes ago, Angen said:

would not reintroducing aura bring back discussion that the aura is sexist? 

The aura itself in most cases doesn't make a lot of sense, but in the case of Sparta, where women had a fair amount of authority, it would be more fair for them being nearby to command the serfs having a tangible benefit.  Honestly the aura itself (at least in my opinion) is not a sexist thing; it's just in most cases an unintuitive mechanic.  

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 07/04/2021 at 7:30 PM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Remove the Theatron as it is not representative of Sparta.

 

Sparta had a theater (theatron) from 5th century BC to the 4th century AD.

Sparta also had a number of Stoas in its Agora.  

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Sparta had a theater (theatron) from 5th century BC to the 4th century AD.

Could you give a source for that?  A brief search for any only showed that only one I could find was probably built at the earliest around AD 30.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

5 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

showed that only one I could find was probably built at the earliest around AD 30.

That's the Roman theater ruins. Apparently the Greek theater evidence is epigraphical and might be at the same site as the Roman theater.