Sparta Rework

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded 677]

Since other civilisations have been getting their fair share of recognition, it seems fair to represent Sparta as well.  Here are a few ideas I have for further differentiation:

Remove the Theatron as it is not representative of Sparta.

Make palisade walls only accessible once the Town Phase has been reached to further emphasise their lack of reliance on walls.

Make the Syssition available in the Town Phase to allow them to produce Spartans earlier.

Have them start with a Skiritae unit instead of a horseman to demonstrate their abysmal cavalry capabilities.  Also they should perhaps not be able to train cavalry in the Village Phase.

Have them begin with a Spartan hoplite since Sparta had Spartans.

Make their helot units cheaper yet weaker.

[Lion.Kanzen 4.960]

What about slaves (helot) as ubique support unit (for now)?

Delenda Est have good approach to this mechanics.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded 677]

14 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

What about slaves (helot) as ubique support unit (for now)?

Ah yes.  That is a thing that has been mentioned a fair amount.  It's definitely valid.  Personally I could see the helot unit being available instead of the skirmisher variant from the Civic Centre.  Constructing a barracks would allow for the research of a technology that would allow the player to emancipate a helot unit into a νεοδαμώδεις instead, a skirmisher if we go with that route that would no longer gather but would fight reasonably well.  

[borg- 697]

Thanks for sharing your ideas.

1 hour ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Make their helot units cheaper yet weaker.

I like this.

 

1 hour ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Have them start with a Skiritae unit instead of a horseman to demonstrate their abysmal cavalry capabilities.

This is totally unviable. Without horses, cant hunt, very slow compared to other civilizations.

Edited Thursday at 01:22 by borg-

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded 677]

39 minutes ago, borg- said:

This is totally unviable. Without horses, cant hunt, very slow compared to other civilizations.

That was my concern as well, but perhaps there is a way around this.  First of all, should horsemen gather food at warp speed when it comes to hunting?  Personally I find the current rate a bit much.  Second, Sparta could compensate by having women gather hunt resources more efficiently.

Edited Thursday at 01:59 by Thorfinn the Shallow Minded

[wowgetoffyourcellphone 6.863]

What I think:

Put a lot of focus on the Syssiton and Hoplites. Move Syssiton to village phase. It trains Spartiates and Heroes 1 phase early, and though they are slightly weaker in Town phase, they get a boost in City phase (probably an auto-researched tech). "Othismos" tech gives them an aura that boosts the armor and attack of fellow nearby Hoplites and Spartiates. (Delenda Est has this by default for all Hoplite class units, but if you want to differentiate the Spartans from the Athenians making it exclusive to Sparta could work). 

 

Unique gathering unit: Heilot. Economy revolves around this unit. Essentially a slave gatherer that can be upgraded to a javelineer if necessary. "Helot Emancipation" tech unlocks this ability (perhaps can choose between skirmisher or hoplite). "Messenian War" unlocks training Helots at Storehouse and Farmstead. "Krypteia Secret Police" unlocks an aura for Hoplites and Spartiates that improves Helot performance. This unit is capturable, as they aren't very loyal, for good reason.

Edited Thursday at 05:34 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[LetswaveaBook 30]

8 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Make their helot units cheaper yet weaker.

Helot should be mainly workers and having cheaper workers can have serious balance effects in a citizen soldier concept. I would like the idea, but we need a good clue how to keep balance in mind.

When reading on wikipedia about Sparta, I also found the something about the Spartan Hamosts and their garision. Maybe we can give the Spartans something unique in city phase to reflect the Spartan Dominance and rule after the Peloponnesian war.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded 677]

5 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

Helot should be mainly workers and having cheaper workers can have serious balance effects in a citizen soldier concept. I would like the idea, but we need a good clue how to keep balance in mind.

My proposal was a simple and conservative one: not ideal to my views, but a mere suggestion that some might like.  The inclusion of Helots at all is problematic for the citizen soldier concept since they were not citizens and were only occasionally soldiers.  The same of course goes for Perioikoi, leaving the ironic choice of the Spartan hoplite, both a citizen and a soldier not being a citizen-soldier.  

[badosu 473]

I think it would be nice to see sparta developed to an extreme, even if balance might be challenging. Making it mostly eco-driven run by helots could provide both a great differentiation value and be historically accurate.

[Stan` 7.162]

Can someone make a patch? / mod

[Palaxin 206]

10 hours ago, badosu said:

I think it would be nice to see sparta developed to an extreme, even if balance might be challenging. Making it mostly eco-driven run by helots could provide both a great differentiation value and be historically accurate.

for more extreme gameplay see also

for more historicality see

 

Edited yesterday at 12:27 by Palaxin

[borg- 697]

2 hours ago, Stan` said:

Can someone make a patch? / mod

I will do.