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Just a few points I have that strongly vary from Edwarf:

 

On 12/03/2021 at 4:38 PM, Edwarf said:

Gauls:

A23: Top 3 civilizations, strong economic bonuses (population space on every building/building faster to build/rotary mill), strong heros and fanatic strong for raids.  Paired with Iberians is really powerful.

A24: Decent civilization, economic bonuses (building faster to build/extra food upgrade).Very strong power spike at phase 2 due to extra damage on sword cavalry en cheaper fanatic. New champions, Heroes easier to reach.  (Cheaper stable and barracks.)  A strong civilization overall.  Diversity of units in p2.  Can do a good p3 push.  The ability to produce rams, hero, and dmg reduction units at the same time is extremely valuable.

Strength:

  • Building faster to build
  • Extra food upgrade phase 2, helps for the sword cavalry spam.
  • Strong Heroes that do not require a fort
  • Strong melee cavalry (+15% damage)
  • Strong team bonus and dmg reduction battle units.

Weakness:

  • Only rams has siege weapon
  • Weaker buildings

-> Gauls weaker in A24 than in A23 but still decent. Harder to play, not a beginner civilization anymore.

 

Macedonians:

A23: One of the worst civilizations no swords, no spears, useless heroes, no economic bonuses. One of the few civilization that can do massive damage if played by the right player.  Only civilization that could attack with 15-16 rams within 16/17 mins generally making it difficult to defend versus, especially versus Gauls, Seleucids, or any other skrimisher civ (e.g., rome, macedonianss, iberians, etc) that massed skirmishers with no anti siege.  This civ paired with Iberians is extremely powerful as advancement to p3 is significantly faster.

A24: A bit better thanks to champion swordsmanChanges to pikemen do not necessitate a need for swordsmen. New champion crossbowman (a bit weak can’t be spammed due to massive overkill).  Uniqueness of this civilization completely lost in a24 as every civ now has the same siege ability.  Possibility?  Make siege workshop a p2 building that counts for p3 like ele stables for Maury.

Strength:

  • Phase 1 spear cavalry
  • Variety of siege weapons
  • Hellenistic Metropolis (Civic center +100% Health points)
  • Stronger buildings
  • Foot companions, like Ptolemic pikemen, kill rams.  No need for sword or wasting metal on the newly available units anymore because of how game was revamped it's not a problem anymore.

Weakness:

  • No economic bonuses
  • No spear infantry (except champions) Because of update there is a strong preference for pikemen in lieu of spear infantry.

-> Macedonians Slightly stronger weaker in A24 than in A23.  Not a viable civ currently and do not see other players play it in mutliplayer.  Seleucids have about everything mace has plus more. but remain as a bad civilization

 

Mauryas :

A23 : Decent civilization (Very strong in nomad games) that can be played strong by a players such as 90/letsplay0ad who knows how to use cav to hunt food - can mass 20-30 cav by minute 9 and dominate most civs (but only with right player, otherwise extremely weak). Heroes a bit weak RELATIVE to other civilization heroes, economic bonuses (Elephant worker), +10% population limit, only elephant as siege weapon (except expensive champions maceman and tricky rams)

A24 : Very strong civilization. Heroes still can be perceived as weak to most players.  However, economic discount + speed and temple discount + speed heroes are extremely powerful in a games dependent on metal.  Will to fight now only costs 1200 instead of the 1500 resources as for other civs.  R2 upgrades in temple can cost 250 food instead of 1000 with the right setup, thanks to heroes, and temples can cost only 75 stone.  Extremely powerful two heroes (priest/chariot) with other heroes and bonuses (elephant/trade hero) that, generally, are useless.  Economic Construction bonuses (Elephant worker), +10% population limit, Strong unique champion maceman (Note: rarely used in multiplayer now.  In the past good players could really turn games with these), Strong Archer chapions, Strong elephant archer, Indian siege elephant, access to rams.(cheaper barracks/stable)

Strength:

  • Elephant Workers bonus of +25% construction speed is ridiculously powerful (Not utilized by many players).
  • +10% population limit is amazing due to Elephant siege population cost.
  • Elephant faster to recruit
  • Indian Siege Elephant
  • Extra Sword upgrade
  • Archery tradition
  • Unique Champion Maceman
  • Strong archer champions (poison damage)
  • Strong archer elephants
  • Cheap Walls
  • 20% discount and 50% speed on all upgrades at wonder (population), fort (will to fight), and weaponsmith (damage/defense upgrades) as these buildings can be garrisoned by the priest hero.
  • Up to 75% discount on temple upgrades if using hero and an ally is a Maury (e.g., r2 upgrade at temple can cost 250 food instead of 1000 food.  That's huge.).
  • Only civ other than Romans that has access to WOODEN cost walls.  However, with strength of palisades this is a moot point.

Weakness:

  • Most players over-depend on archers.  No pikemen but has spearmen.  However, in a24 lack of pikemen is a serious disadvantage.  Pikemen make Kush/Ptolemies/Carthage really powerful.  None

-> Mauryas are stronger in A24 than in A23

 

Ptolemies:

A23: Top 3 civilization, economic bonus (free buildings), good team bonus, Strong heroes, strong army compositions, large variety of siege weapons. Very strong navy: Lighthouse, Juggernaut. Camel Archer Phase 1.  Paired with Iberians and extremely powerful civilization.

A24: Very strong civilization, economic bonus (cheaper buildings), good team bonus Strong Heroes, strong army compositions, large variety of siege weapons. Camel  Archer Phase 1. Standard Extremely strong navy. Civ has the siege ships.  This is extremely powerful and few civs have these ships.

Strength:

  • Cheaper buildings (-40% cost for house, corral, storehouse and farmstead)
  • Strong heroes (and in Civic Center)
  • Variety of siege weapons
  • Stronger Bolt Shooter (faster less overkill)
  • Library
  • Hellenistic Metropolis
  • Military Colony
  • Camel archer at phase 1
  • Pikemen in a24 are a critical composition component of any army.  These pikemen units can be buffed by a hero.  These pikemen units can be also buffed by another hero if loss of pikeman hero.

Weakness:

  • Swordsman only as mercenaries
  • All ranged infantry are based on minerals (stone/metal).
  • Spear unit only as mercenaries

-> Ptolemies are slightly weaker in A24 than in A23. A bit better balanced but still very strong.

 

Romans:

A23: Strong civilization, good heroes, good team bonus, strong siege, very strong military camps, spear cavalry phase 1. No palisade and no economic bonuses.  Uses 'average units' like skrimishers/spear and when paired with Iberians can be really powerful.

A24: Decent Weak civilization as it is a "siege civ" strongly dependent on aoe of siege. good heroes, good team bonus, strong siege, weaker military camps, spear cavalry phase 1. Now they have palisade Phase 1 and regular stone walls later on, in addition to wooden walls. No economic bonuses.

Strength:

  • Castra (Army camp)
  • Strong heroes
  • Strong siege
  • Good team bonus
  • Spear cavalry phase 1

Weakness:

  • Castra no longer permit construction of siege (ranged or melee).  A weakness of Romans, currently, is that castra is a weak structure that can be taken down with infantry.  Currently, having an enemy castra near a cc is not even seen as a problem and the building is ignored.  In the past, civs had to build outposts to secure their territory to make sure no castra was built and paid attention as it could turn games. 
  • No economic bonus

-> Romans are weaker in A24 than in A23. (It would have been great to have other kind of unit in castra than only melee)

 

Seleucids:

A23: Decent civilization, medium heroes, variety of siege units, good army compositions. No economic bonuses.

A24: Decent Strong civilization.  Elephant dmg bonus hero is pretty powerful, however this hero is useless in late game.  In general, the remaining heroes are medium heroes.  Strong variety of siege units. Good army compositions. No economic bonuses.(no change overall)

Strength:

  • Free champion infantry upgrade
  • Military Colony
  • Hellenistic Metropolis
  • Variety of siege units
  • Good army compositions
  • Archer cavalry is extremely powerful.

Weakness:

  • No economic bonus

-> Seleucids remain a decent civilization in A24. Better balance overall now.

 

Overall balance:

Lack of Metal:

  • This this this this this 100x.

 

Catapults:

  • Catapult are way weaker than they used to be in A23, they are useless against units (which is great horrible) they are easily destroyed by archers (this is great, but too easily destroyable which is horrible), they deal very few damage.
    • Catapults should be dealing AOE damage to units.  However, the requirement is that they need to be mircoed by the player.  An alternative can exist where siege can be made to "select units over structures" if dmg vs players is smaller than in a23.  Catapults always selected buildings over units and are useless in presence of buildings when not microed.
  • However they are a bit too expensive : they are more expensive than rams and elephants. I suggest to reduce their resources price and also the population cost, 3 is too much currently 2 might be better.  This could be an alternative to siege dmg vs units.  That is, the left over population could be used to build units to counter siege.

 

“Turtling”:

  • This is a huge problem.  After minute 18 if a game isn't decided it will be a 60+ minute game.  In a23 typical game was 40 minutes.
  • Palisades/Walls are a huge problem that enable turtling.  Either add a special unit that kills walls/palisades only and is hard to kill or the ability for the game host to limit palisades.
    • On the other hand, Palisades are necessary to surround each tower.  Why are tower so easy to capture?  It is crazy easy to capture towers now for some reason.  It is usually easier to capture than to take down a tower.
  • The consequence of many change made turtling (staying on your base waiting your opponent to suicide on your defence) too strong.
  • Building are way more deadlier than they used to be.
Edited by Dizaka
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Thank you for your detailed analysis, it's appreciated!

A few of the things you listed were actually not changed in A24, though. For instance, the Carthaginian and Persian trader bonuses were implemented nine years ago (11349) and the international bonuses five years ago (18108).

What has changed in A24 is that a lot of work has been done on correcting and improving the information displayed in game. As with everything, this job is not finished, 0 A.D. is a result of nearly two decades of work by dozens if not hundreds of people and there will also be things that could and should be improved.

On 12/03/2021 at 10:38 PM, Edwarf said:

Lack of Metal:

This is indeed problematic. Part of the problem is expensive technologies (which can be easily changed), part of it is generally poor map design.

On 12/03/2021 at 10:38 PM, Edwarf said:

Personal feeling about the future:

I have seen some proposition on the forum about gameplay “innovation” and I feel like it tend to copy similar RTS games such as Age of Empire 2. For exemple the food decay, the scout phase 1, cavalry not able to hunt anymore, stable, siege workshop...

I am a bit sad about that, this game is wonderful and unique. It can be improved with real gameplay innovation such as regenerative fishes, trees and berries. There is no need to copy other archaic games.

-> I hope it is just a feeling.

I fully agree. Age of Empires II is a very popular game, yet that doesn't mean it should be followed blindly. One can look at other games for inspiration, of course, but in the end what's done in 0 A.D. should be what makes sense for 0 A.D., regardless what other games do.

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Posted (edited)

@Dizaka

Thank you for your comments, i commented again :) (in blue inside the quote)

16 hours ago, Dizaka said:

Gauls:

A23: Top 3 civilizations, strong economic bonuses (population space on every building/building faster to build/rotary mill), strong heros and fanatic strong for raids.  Paired with Iberians is really powerful. True like all P1 skirm civilizations

A24: Decent civilization, economic bonuses (building faster to build/extra food upgrade).Very strong power spike at phase 2 due to extra damage on sword cavalry en cheaper fanatic. New champions, Heroes easier to reach.  (Cheaper stable and barracks.)  A strong civilization overall.  Diversity of units in p2.  Can do a good p3 push.  The ability to produce rams, hero, and dmg reduction units at the same time is extremely valuable. I don't really understand why they can do good p3 push they have nothing more than other civs on this phase. in A23 i'd agreed but in A24 i don't see why, tell me more, i feel like i'm missing something.

Strength:

  • Building faster to build
  • Extra food upgrade phase 2, helps for the sword cavalry spam.
  • Strong Heroes that do not require a fort True but now only 6 over 13 civilizations needs a fort to train Heroes it is not a specific gauls strength.
  • Strong melee cavalry (+15% damage)
  • Strong team bonus and dmg reduction battle units. True but expensive.

Weakness:

  • Only rams has siege weapon
  • Weaker buildings

-> Gauls weaker in A24 than in A23 but still decent. Harder to play, not a beginner civilization anymore.

 

Macedonians:

A23: One of the worst civilizations no swords, no spears, useless heroes, no economic bonuses. One of the few civilization that can do massive damage if played by the right player.  Only civilization that could attack with 15-16 rams within 16/17 mins generally making it difficult to defend versus, especially versus Gauls, Seleucids, or any other skrimisher civ (e.g., rome, macedonianss, iberians, etc) that massed skirmishers with no anti siege.  This civ paired with Iberians is extremely powerful as advancement to p3 is significantly faster. Romans had everithing better and i'm not convinced by this strategy but yes i see your point.

A24: A bit better thanks to champion swordsmanChanges to pikemen do not necessitate a need for swordsmen. I am a bit confused pikemen changed ? i still see 2 hack + 3 pierce / 2 seconds which is actually worst than women against rams. New champion crossbowman (a bit weak can’t be spammed due to massive overkill).  Uniqueness of this civilization completely lost in a24 as every civ now has the same siege ability.  Possibility?  Make siege workshop a p2 building that counts for p3 like ele stables for Maury. true good point.

Strength:

  • Phase 1 spear cavalry
  • Variety of siege weapons
  • Hellenistic Metropolis (Civic center +100% Health points)
  • Stronger buildings
  • Foot companions, like Ptolemic pikemen, kill rams.  No need for sword or wasting metal on the newly available units anymore because of how game was revamped it's not a problem anymore. Pikemens were and are still good meat shield but i don't see the change in order to counter rams.

Weakness:

  • No economic bonuses
  • No spear infantry (except champions) Because of update there is a strong preference for pikemen in lieu of spear infantry.

-> Macedonians Slightly stronger weaker in A24 than in A23.  Not a viable civ currently and do not see other players play it in mutliplayer.  Seleucids have about everything mace has plus more. true but remain as a bad civilization

 

Mauryas :

A23 : Decent civilization (Very strong in nomad games) that can be played strong by a players such as 90/letsplay0ad who knows how to use cav to hunt food - can mass 20-30 cav by minute 9 and dominate most civs (but only with right player, otherwise extremely weak). I agree. Heroes a bit weak RELATIVE to other civilization heroes I agree., economic bonuses (Elephant worker), +10% population limit, only elephant as siege weapon (except expensive champions maceman and tricky rams)

A24 : Very strong civilization. Heroes still can be perceived as weak to most players.  However, economic discount + speed and temple discount + speed heroes are extremely powerful in a games dependent on metal.  Will to fight now only costs 1200 instead of the 1500 resources as for other civs.  R2 upgrades in temple can cost 250 food instead of 1000 with the right setup, thanks to heroes, and temples can cost only 75 stone.  Extremely powerful two heroes (priest/chariot) with other heroes and bonuses (elephant/trade hero) that, generally, are useless.  Economic Construction bonuses (Elephant worker) It is a free moving ressources deposit it's good for economy (especialy at start), +10% population limit, Strong unique champion maceman (Note: rarely used in multiplayer now.  In the past good players could really turn games with these) I'm pretty sure they are still great now they are cheaper and easier to make we just need to be used to this new alpha to be confortable with them., Strong Archer chapions, Strong elephant archer, Indian siege elephant, access to rams.(cheaper barracks/stable)

Strength:

  • Elephant Workers bonus of +25% construction speed is ridiculously powerful (Not utilized by many players).
  • +10% population limit is amazing due to Elephant siege population cost.
  • Elephant faster to recruit
  • Indian Siege Elephant
  • Extra Sword upgrade
  • Archery tradition
  • Unique Champion Maceman
  • Strong archer champions (poison damage)
  • Strong archer elephants
  • Cheap Walls
  • 20% discount and 50% speed on all upgrades at wonder (population), fort (will to fight), and weaponsmith (damage/defense upgrades) as these buildings can be garrisoned by the priest hero. I agree this hero is OK
  • Up to 75% discount on temple upgrades if using hero and an ally is a Maury (e.g., r2 upgrade at temple can cost 250 food instead of 1000 food.  That's huge.). I agree its fun to have cheap temple/upgrade but most of the time you already have temple on phase 2 and upgrade are not mandatory most of the time. and that's it, once this is done it doesn't provide much. Also when you have a mauryan ally it provide only 25% discount on temple/upgrade.
  • Only civ other than Romans that has access to WOODEN cost walls.  However, with strength of palisades this is a moot point. That's what i meant by "cheap wall" :) 

Weakness:

  • Most players over-depend on archers.  No pikemen but has spearmen.  However, in a24 lack of pikemen is a serious disadvantage.  Pikemen make Kush/Ptolemies/Carthage really powerful. Carthage doesn't have pikemen you probably mean Seleucids/Macedonians ?  None

-> Mauryas are stronger in A24 than in A23

 

Ptolemies:

A23: Top 3 civilization, economic bonus (free buildings), good team bonus, Strong heroes, strong army compositions, large variety of siege weapons. Very strong navy: Lighthouse, Juggernaut. Camel Archer Phase 1.  Paired with Iberians and extremely powerful civilization. I agree

A24: Very strong civilization, economic bonus (cheaper buildings), good team bonus Strong Heroes, strong army compositions, large variety of siege weapons. Camel  Archer Phase 1. Standard Extremely strong navy. Civ has the siege ships.  This is extremely powerful and few civs have these ships. I need to play more naval battle but siege ships are now really bad against units and only un-experimented player place important building near shore line. In ship vs ship battle, 3 loaded medium warship (=3900 ressources) are better than a loaded siege ship (9 catapults) (=6900 ressources). Also ptolemies medium warship have less health point than celtic and mauryans medium warships.

Strength:

  • Cheaper buildings (-40% cost for house, corral, storehouse and farmstead)
  • Strong heroes (and in Civic Center)
  • Variety of siege weapons
  • Stronger Bolt Shooter (faster less overkill)
  • Library
  • Hellenistic Metropolis
  • Military Colony
  • Camel archer at phase 1
  • Pikemen in a24 are a critical composition component of any army.  These pikemen units can be buffed by a hero.  These pikemen units can be also buffed by another hero if loss of pikeman hero.(cleopatra speed bonus won't do much dealing nothing or dealing faster nothing is still nothing) but yes Pikemen are great meat shield.

Weakness:

  • Swordsman only as mercenaries
  • All ranged infantry are based on minerals (stone/metal).
  • Spear unit only as mercenaries

-> Ptolemies are slightly weaker in A24 than in A23. A bit better balanced but still very strong.

 

Romans:

A23: Strong civilization, good heroes, good team bonus, strong siege, very strong military camps, spear cavalry phase 1. No palisade and no economic bonuses.  Uses 'average units' like skrimishers/spear and when paired with Iberians can be really powerful. True like all P1 skirm civilizations

A24: Decent Weak civilization as it is a "siege civ" strongly dependent on aoe of siege. I actually agree. good heroes, good team bonus, strong siege, weaker military camps, spear cavalry phase 1. Now they have palisade Phase 1 and regular stone walls later on, in addition to wooden walls. True but they already had stone walls like all civilizations. No economic bonuses.

Strength:

  • Castra (Army camp)
  • Strong heroes
  • Strong siege
  • Good team bonus
  • Spear cavalry phase 1

Weakness:

  • Castra no longer permit construction of siege (ranged or melee).  A weakness of Romans, currently, is that castra is a weak structure that can be taken down with infantry.  Currently, having an enemy castra near a cc is not even seen as a problem and the building is ignored.  In the past, civs had to build outposts to secure their territory to make sure no castra was built and paid attention as it could turn games.  Castra is still the deadlier defensive building 25 pierce damage. it is cheaper than it used to be. i was not a big fan of sneak siege push in previous alpha, 1hp man could by himself build in the shade of a tree a military camp and a bunch of rams. it was a pain in the ass. If it could train cavalry/skirms i agree it can be nice.
  • No economic bonus

-> Romans are weaker in A24 than in A23. (It would have been great to have other kind of unit in castra than only melee)

 

Seleucids:

A23: Decent civilization, medium heroes, variety of siege units, good army compositions. No economic bonuses.

A24: Decent Strong civilization.  Elephant dmg bonus hero is pretty powerful, however this hero is useless in late game.  In general, the remaining heroes are medium heroes. Actually the sword cavalry hero "Antiochos IV" is better instead of giving 20% damage it reduce building health point by 20% which is exactly the same but at least it work for all units not only elephants, he is also faster making him better to snipe siege.   Strong variety of siege units. Good army compositions. No economic bonuses.(no change overall)

Strength:

  • Free champion infantry upgrade
  • Military Colony
  • Hellenistic Metropolis
  • Variety of siege units
  • Good army compositions
  • Archer cavalry is extremely powerful. Yes mostly due to the archer balance issue otherwize their archer cavalry is the same as persian and ptolemies.

Weakness:

  • No economic bonus

-> Seleucids remain a decent civilization in A24. Better balance overall now.

 

Overall balance:

Lack of Metal:

  • This this this this this 100x.

 

Catapults:

  • Catapult are way weaker than they used to be in A23, they are useless against units (which is great horrible ) they are easily destroyed by archers (this is great, but too easily destroyable which is horrible), they deal very few damage.
    • Catapults should be dealing AOE damage to units.In my opinion bolt shooters are made to fight against units not catapults  However, the requirement is that they need to be mircoed by the player.  An alternative can exist where siege can be made to "select units over structures" if dmg vs players is smaller than in a23.  Catapults always selected buildings over units and are useless in presence of buildings when not microed.
  • However they are a bit too expensive : they are more expensive than rams and elephants. I suggest to reduce their resources price and also the population cost, 3 is too much currently 2 might be better.  This could be an alternative to siege dmg vs units.  That is, the left over population could be used to build units to counter siege.

 

“Turtling”:

  • This is a huge problem.  After minute 18 if a game isn't decided it will be a 60+ minute game.  In a23 typical game was 40 minutes. True
  • Palisades/Walls are a huge problem that enable turtling.  Either add a special unit that kills walls/palisades only and is hard to kill or the ability for the game host to limit palisades.
    • On the other hand, Palisades are necessary to surround each tower.  Why are tower so easy to capture?  It is crazy easy to capture towers now for some reason.  It is usually easier to capture than to take down a tower.
  • The consequence of many change made turtling (staying on your base waiting your opponent to suicide on your defence) too strong.
  • Building are way more deadlier than they used to be.
Edited by Edwarf
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  • 2 weeks later...

 

On 12/03/2021 at 3:38 PM, Edwarf said:

-> Archer units are too strong.

Maybe give back the A23 statistics to the slingers and give 2 or 3 standard pierce resistance to the javelineers making them stronger against ranged units and still weak against melee.(like this all 3 ranged infantry are unique)

One change that I would eventually like to see is melee units being more viable for the main portion of your army as opposed to a small percentage.  In the A23 I think you wanted to have your ranged units outnumber your melee units at least 3 to 1.  Melee infantry are even worse off than before.  So rather than seeing slingers and javs buffed (making melee infantry even less effective) I would prefer for archers to nerfed.

I'm undecided on how I feel about the metal issue.  It is adequate for a 1v1 but not for a team game.  So maybe the new style of team play will have to prioritize trade and/or map control.  That seems like an interesting strategic addition to me and I'll take a wait and see approach.

By the way, the Spartan Hero Agis...why was he debuffed?  He now has normal hero HP but still no Aura or bonuses.

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