Two-Gendered Citizens Mod (Please Test!)

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Okay guys, how's the mod working for you now?

[maroder]

Generally very good. But I get two icons for citizens when I play with the kushites. One for female citizens and one for citizens in general. (Did not test all of the civs)

Edited March 15, 2021 by maroder

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

46 minutes ago, maroder said:

Generally very good. But I get two icons for citizens when I play with the kushites. One for female citizens and one for citizens in general.

Might be a civ.json bug (female citizens spawn at the beginning probably). Will fix.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, maroder said:

Generally very good. But I get two icons for citizens when I play with the kushites. One for female citizens and one for citizens in general. (Did not test all of the civs)

I could not reproduce this. I even played the same map and chose Kushites. Anyone else? 

Do you have any other mods installed? 

[maroder]

I tested it in combination with the Defense test mod from Nescio. Let me try it without.

Yes sorry, my bad. No problems if its the only mod.

Edited March 15, 2021 by maroder

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Committed fixes for Male Citizen actors, improves variant ordering and adds missing attack variant (some male dudes would just stand there and not poke the target with their dagger).

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 11/03/2021 at 4:40 AM, Langbart said:

Hmm, your orange is more eye-catching. Why are the lower parts in an accent color in the "Athenian" males and not also in the females? Females look too white.

Sorry, didn't mean to ignore you. 

The female in the 2nd image is wearing a beige/brown gown, not player color. If you zoom in on the player color bits of the portrait, you'll see it is a nice orange. Anyway, I think you'd want your citizens to stand out in a selection full of a bunch of different units, so you could probably micro them out of the selection or task them elsewhere. 

@borg- Thoughts on this mod? 

Edited March 19, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[borg-]

10 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Sorry, didn't mean to ignore you. 

The female in the 2nd image is wearing a beige/brown gown, not player color. If you zoom in on the player color bits of the portrait, you'll see it is a nice orange. Anyway, I think you'd want your citizens to stand out in a selection full of a bunch of different units, so you could probably micro them out of the selection or task them elsewhere. 

@borg- Thoughts on this mod? 

I don't know, i like how 0 a.d works now. my problem is that there must be a great differentiation between the models of men, because it is very difficult to know if it is a collector or a soldier. Should the gatherin rate be the same for all units now?

[Lopess]

48 minutes ago, borg- said:

I don't know, i like how 0 a.d works now. my problem is that there must be a great differentiation between the models of men, because it is very difficult to know if it is a collector or a soldier. Should the gatherin rate be the same for all units now?

I have an idea about how this could be "resolved" or at least minimized. Give a mark on the ground when selected other than the current round for citizen units.

[borg-]

4 hours ago, Lopess said:

I have an idea about how this could be "resolved" or at least minimized. Give a mark on the ground when selected other than the current round for citizen units.

This is not just the problem. If I am going to attack you, how will I know if you have collectors or soldiers? This mark on the soldiers must be permanent then, without having to select/click the unit

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

6 hours ago, borg- said:

I don't know, i like how 0 a.d works now.

Being one of the top players I'm sure you do. Lol

 

6 hours ago, borg- said:

my problem is that there must be a great differentiation between the models of men, because it is very difficult to know if it is a collector or a soldier.

Right, the citizen soldier concept makes this difficult. 

 

6 hours ago, borg- said:

Should the gatherin rate be the same for all units now?

I don't think they should be identical, but perhaps the Citizens are just 20% better than soldiers at gathering each resource since they are unencumbered with armor and weapons.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 19/03/2021 at 1:33 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

perhaps the Citizens are just 20% better than soldiers at gathering each resource since they are unencumbered with armor and weapons.

I think I will do this to the mod and then bundle it for mod.io. Once again, lack of consensus will likely keep this out of the base game, but at least folks can play it in a mod.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

50 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think I will do this to the mod and then bundle it for mod.io. Once again, lack of consensus will likely keep this out of the base game, but at least folks can play it in a mod.

 

Mercenary bundle, please.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Release Candidate:

 

 

two-gendered_citizens_a24_1.pyromod

[AIEND]

I have an idea that civilians should be given bows and javelins specifically for hunting, in other words giving them a way to attack beasts so they can hunt as efficiently as soldiers.
And still use daggers (in fact, sticks are better) when attacking people, because labor tools and combat weapons are separate, otherwise civilians have more reason to fight with logging axes, hoes, sickles and pickaxes.

[ChronA]

Personally, I think it would make the most sense to have civilians fight enemies and animals by throwing stones.

In a panic, rocks will almost always be available immediately at hand. For hunting, one would have a chance to go and get a bow and arrows before you set out, but when ambushed by raiders you would have to use the tools on and near your person.
Getting in to hand to hand combat with an aggressor is also extremely scary (and dangerous), so a non-militarized populous will prefer to deal with threats at range... which against an enemy without ranged armament is the objectively correct way to handle the situation if you want to live.

Lastly, perverse as it seems, I think perception that a thrown stone is sub-lethal compared to dedicated ordinance like an arrow or javelin is actually a huge advantage in getting untrained people to overcome their cognitive aversion to killing. If it takes multiple stones to kill someone, you can always deny that you were responsible for delivering the killing blow. (Maybe this is why stoning is a historically popular form of execution.)

[AIEND]

28 minutes ago, ChronA said:

就个人而言，我认为让平民通过投掷石块来对抗敌人和动物是最有意义的。

在恐慌中，几乎总是可以立即获得岩石。打猎时，你有机会在出发前去拿弓箭，但当被袭击者伏击时，你必须在你的人身上和附近使用这些工具。
与侵略者进行肉搏战也非常可怕（也很危险），因此非军事化的民众更愿意应对远程威胁……这对没有远程武器的敌人是客观正确的处理方式如果你想活下去的情况。

最后，尽管看起来很反常，但我认为与箭或标枪等专用法令相比，投掷的石头是次致命的，这实际上是让未经训练的人克服对杀戮的认知厌恶的巨大优势。如果要杀死一个人需要多块石头，你总是可以否认你对造成致命一击负有责任。（也许这就是为什么石刑是一种历史上流行的处决方式。）

It is also common to pick up branches and use them as sticks, civilians generally do not use specialized weapons when fighting.

[AIEND]

Can come up with more abundant hunting tools, such as boomerangs.

[Stan`]

Requires multiple attacks.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

5 hours ago, AIEND said:

I have an idea that civilians should be given bows and javelins specifically for hunting, in other words giving them a way to attack beasts so they can hunt as efficiently as soldiers.

Keep in mind that the rate at which animals are killed is not the only factor to hunting efficiency. Cavalry have a much higher gather rate of meat than infantry or villagers (women but also man in this mod).

[AIEND]

4 小时前，BreakfastBurrito_007 说：

请记住，杀死动物的速度并不是影响狩猎效率的唯一因素。 骑兵比步兵或村民（女性也有男性）拥有更高的肉类采集率。

Of course I know this. The main issue that affects hunting efficiency is whether you can build a granary in a neutral area. The reason why the cavalry has such a high meat collection efficiency is because he runs fast and can quickly travel back and forth between the prey and the granary.

[Gurken Khan]

28 minutes ago, AIEND said:

The reason why the cavalry has such a high meat collection efficiency is because he runs fast and can quickly travel back and forth between the prey and the granary.

And maybe the collection rate of 5?

[AIEND]

2分钟前，古尔肯汗说：

也许5的收集率？

假如骑兵不能很快的从领土内的粮仓和领土外的猎物之间快速来回，那么根本就不会有人想到给它5倍于步兵的肉类收集速度。

如果你能在猎物旁边建造一座粮仓，让后就近回收肉类，你为什么还需要骑兵去打猎？

If the cavalry can't quickly go back and forth between the granary in the territory and the prey outside the territory, then no one would think of giving it 5 times the meat collection speed of the infantry.

Why do you need cavalry to hunt if you can build a granary next to the prey to recycle the meat nearby?

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

27 minutes ago, AIEND said:

假如骑兵不能很快的从领土内的粮仓和领土外的猎物之间快速来回，那么根本就不会有人想到给它5倍于步兵的肉类收集速度。

如果你能在猎物旁边建造一座粮仓，让后就近回收肉类，你为什么还需要骑兵去打猎？

If the cavalry can't quickly go back and forth between the granary in the territory and the prey outside the territory, then no one would think of giving it 5 times the meat collection speed of the infantry.

Why do you need cavalry to hunt if you can build a granary next to the prey to recycle the meat nearby?

Because even if there is no travel distance between granary and prey, cavalry gather it faster than women or infantry.

You can also improve hunting efficiency by attacking from farther away so that the prey flee toward the farmstead.

Edited April 22, 2022 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[AIEND]

2 分钟前，BreakfastBurrito_007 说：

因为即使粮仓和猎物之间没有旅行距离，骑兵也比妇女或步兵更快地收集它。

您还可以通过从更远的地方攻击来提高狩猎效率，以便猎物向农庄逃跑。

I could have given this higher efficiency to infantry and women as well.
The essence of the problem is that the cavalry is designed to be "fast and efficient meat collectors" because it takes too much time to drive the prey or go back and forth from the prey to the resource recovery point.
Why won't AoE3 have this design? Because AoE3's resource recycling point is the civilian itself, wherever it kills its prey, it can be recycled on the spot.