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26 minutes ago, Palaxin said:

AFAIK many years ago there was an official decision to only use soft counters in 0 A.D. (no fixed attack bonuses). That already has changed. However, it's not always that intuitive. Intuitive, for me, would mean about (+ soft counter ++ hard counter):

  • ranged infantry
    • archer: + heavy infantry ++ light infantry - spear cavalry -- sword cavalry
    • slinger: + light infantry ++ heavy infantry - spear cavalry -- sword cavalry
    • javelin: ++ ranged - spear cavalry -- sword cavalry
  • melee infantry
    • spear: + cavalry - ranged
    • pike: ++ cavalry - ranged - infantry
    • sword: + spear infantry ++ pike infantry + siege -- ranged
  • ranged cavalry
    • archer: + heavy infantry ++ light infantry - spear infantry -- pike infantry -- spear cavalry
    • javelin: ++ ranged - spear infantry -- pike infantry -- spear cavalry
  • melee cavalry
    • spear: ++ cavalry + ranged - spear infantry -- pike infantry
    • sword: ++ ranged + siege - spear infantry -- pike infantry -- spear cavalry

Very interesting, could you link to where that decision was made?

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28 minutes ago, Palaxin said:

AFAIK many years ago there was an official decision to only use soft counters in 0 A.D. (no fixed attack bonuses). That already has changed. However, it's not always that intuitive. Intuitive, for me, would mean about (+ soft counter ++ hard counter):

  • ranged infantry
    • archer: + heavy infantry ++ light infantry - spear cavalry -- sword cavalry
    • slinger: + light infantry ++ heavy infantry - spear cavalry -- sword cavalry
    • javelin: ++ ranged - spear cavalry -- sword cavalry
  • melee infantry
    • spear: + cavalry - ranged
    • pike: ++ cavalry - ranged - infantry
    • sword: + spear infantry ++ pike infantry + siege -- ranged
  • ranged cavalry
    • archer: + heavy infantry ++ light infantry - spear infantry -- pike infantry -- spear cavalry
    • javelin: ++ ranged - spear infantry -- pike infantry -- spear cavalry
  • melee cavalry
    • spear: ++ cavalry + ranged - spear infantry -- pike infantry
    • sword: ++ ranged + siege - spear infantry -- pike infantry -- spear cavalry

The problem is that you are able to maintain historical realism.
Javelins for example were effective against heavy infantry and not long-range units, but either way it can be adjusted and I like how you think.

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BRING BACK A23 BCUZ I CANT PLAY OTHER CIV THAN OP GAULS

13 minutes ago, borg- said:

The problem is that you are able to maintain historical realism.
Javelins for example were effective against heavy infantry and not long-range units, but either way it can be adjusted and I like how you think.

bold of you to assume that 0ad players care about history

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23 minutes ago, thankforpieOfficial said:

BRING BACK A23 BCUZ I CANT PLAY OTHER CIV THAN OP GAULS

bold of you to assume that 0ad players care about history

Most of our changes had a historical context. I have always made it clear here on the forum that it is very important to have a historical foundation.

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25 minutes ago, thankforpieOfficial said:

bold of you to assume that 0ad players care about history

They must, since there are plenty of other free games out there they could play if they didn't care about history. 

Even if I didn't give 2 cares about WW2 history I would still think it silly for a bazooka to take out the Battleship Bismark. 

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
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well if they don't like the historical aspect of the game, they just need to find another game to play. 

there are different types of games and different things players enjoy, it just may not be the correct one

 

0 A.D. (pronounced “zero-ey-dee”) is a free, open-source, historical Real Time Strategy (RTS) game currently under development by Wildfire Games, a global group of volunteer game developers. As the leader of an ancient civilization, you must gather the resources you need to raise a military force and dominate your enemies.

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1 hour ago, nani said:

Very interesting, could you link to where that decision was made?

probably this one:

On 02/12/2014 at 12:51 PM, niektb said:

In fact hard counters were removed in Alpha 17 after it was deciced (with a good discussion) that a soft counter system is easier to balance (dunno which topic)

The idea was to implement counters purely by gameplay mechanics such as charging for cavalry, directional attacks, formations, camouflage etc. Many of these things would consume "stamina", that would regenerate slowly...

Basically to implement counters by making combat more realistic...

Many of these features are still in the official list of planned features, but honestly I do not see progress in that direction (may be also due to some programmers not active anymore that were willing to implement these features)...

 

1 hour ago, borg- said:

The problem is that you are able to maintain historical realism.
Javelins for example were effective against heavy infantry and not long-range units, but either way it can be adjusted and I like how you think.

Yeah you are right... I prefer historic realism as well, my point was more to establish are clear counter scheme (that is clear/stable enough to not change overall strategies because of minor balance changes)

1 hour ago, ChronA said:

borg ninja-ed me. For most people, what is intuitive is based on how Age of Empires 2 did things. But that is often a far cry from historical reality.

true... I have to remind myself more often of that!

1 hour ago, thankforpieOfficial said:

BRING BACK A23 BCUZ I CANT PLAY OTHER CIV THAN OP GAULS

bold of you to assume that 0ad players care about history

I do not think there are "0ad players" in general... some care more about competition and gameplay, some more about history, some about city-building, ...

The game will always attract different players but I think it should stick with its roots

Edited by Palaxin
link soft counter post
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2 minutes ago, Palaxin said:

I do not think there are "0ad players" in general... some care more about competition and gameplay, some more about history, some about city-building, ...

The game will always attract different players but I think it should stick with its roots

well it wouldnt make sense to suddenly stop basing future patches on history consdiering up until now it was all based on the past

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48 minutes ago, thankforpieOfficial said:

BRING BACK A23 BCUZ I CANT PLAY OTHER CIV THAN OP GAULS

bold of you to assume that 0ad players care about history

This isn't a democracy or or some result product, marketing to sell to the largest possible audience.

 

Then both ends must be taken and combine them in the best possible way.

 

 If we were not interested in the historically correct part, we would take pop culture as a reference and we would go to the Hollywood style , that is historically incorrect.

then we wouldn't waste time reading texts and looking for historically correct information.

1789887628_maxresdefault(3).thumb.jpg.a69cab05573b3d8a22eb696d1688eab0.jpg

Either we would be very cartoon or we would be historical fantasy like Spartacus.

f1706e1ba7ff38827a39b934c7636451.thumb.png.eea00dceb82d95cb7b28ca07406a74ac.png

And if we continued to listen to people we would even make it politically correct and inclusive.

 

An old world with inclusivity, vegan and all that propaganda. None of the symbols that can be considered nationalist would be allowed.

 

 

gladiator-heroes-clash-fighting-and-strategy-game-8.jpg

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15 hours ago, nani said:

Very interesting, could you link to where that decision was made?

That was posted many times. Those things were around 2014. At the time there was a design group, then one person in charge of the gameplay. That was the beginning of the lobby too.

 

A time of changes:

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/15644

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/15655

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/15713

 

Decision of moving to hard counters to gameplay features:

 

But then, there was an appraisal of those changes:

 

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10 minutes ago, nani said:

No permissions to view :(

Oh sorry!

It was in 2014, the decision was made to remove hard counters (like the rps designed in the early years) and replace them with stats (speed, accuracy, range...) and gameplay features (flanking, ...).

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  • 3 weeks later...

I think the dev team has things quite right. I think only small stat changes are in place. From what I´ve seen in AoE2, small changes can have a drastic impact on the preferred strategy in RTS games. I am more the type of boom player and I think booming is advantageous against turtling opponents.

However I can understand that the meta currently might not be the best it could be. I think it would be solved with a few small stat changes. If melee cavalry and infantry swordsmen(for infantry swordsmen maybe also +10% speed) would get +1 pierce armor and towers would take +50% longer to build and upgrade, I think the meta would be fine.

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  • 1 month later...

how many weeks since this post was opened and not a single tangible solution?

 

Mistakes were made? Yes.

 

The errors of 24 have been improved, that's where we are.

 

I honestly like the mechanics of A24 more than how horrible A23 was.

 

Is it going to be unbalanced? Obviously, it is a game in development.

 

People can stay on A23 if they want to, but many of the complainers don't propose anything, don't patch, don't test SVN, don't appear in The phabricator.

 

How is it possible that we take them into account if they do not make a minimum effort?

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52 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

how many weeks since this post was opened and not a single tangible solution?

 

Mistakes were made? Yes.

 

The errors of 24 have been improved, that's where we are.

 

I honestly like the mechanics of A24 more than how horrible A23 was.

 

Is it going to be unbalanced? Obviously, it is a game in development.

 

People can stay on A23 if they want to, but many of the complainers don't propose anything, don't patch, don't test SVN, don't appear in The phabricator.

 

How is it possible that we take them into account if they do not make a minimum effort?

Based

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