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Discussion: a24 Walls in Multiplayer


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Multiplayer a24 walls (palisades/normal) can be spammed.  Walls are great.  Wall spam isn't that palatable.

Suggestion:  Multiplayer option to set "Maximum Wall Length."  This would apply to the specific game being hosted.  It would limit the number of wall "units" that can be actively held by a player (including GAIA, once GAIA maxes out their wall then walls don't convert to GAIA.  This means games are capped at [number of players + 1]*x wall units). 

A wall "unit" can be identified as the "Turret" and actual "Wall."  Therefore, 20 "wall units" will be 20 Turrets and 20 Walls in game per player (1x for palisades, 1x for general walls, therefore total of 40 wall units).

Edited by Dizaka
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I figured they were going to abuse that.

 

In fact I thought that they were not going to include it in the a24 because that generates a lot of lag.

 

They should not include it in multiplayer.

The Gaia thing did not turn out well.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 08/03/2021 at 10:19 PM, Dizaka said:

Multiplayer a24 walls (palisades/normal) can be spammed.  Walls are great.  Wall spam isn't that palatable.

Suggestion:  Multiplayer option to set "Maximum Wall Length."  This would apply to the specific game being hosted.  It would limit the number of wall "units" that can be actively held by a player (including GAIA, once GAIA maxes out their wall then walls don't convert to GAIA.  This means games are capped at [number of players + 1]*x wall units). 

A wall "unit" can be identified as the "Turret" and actual "Wall."  Therefore, 20 "wall units" will be 20 Turrets and 20 Walls in game per player (1x for palisades, 1x for general walls, therefore total of 40 wall units).

I really like this. In TGs multiple layers of walls are spammed solely to add destruction time without any strategic relation to units' attack/defensive positions.

As stated above and elsewhere, walls/palisades cause serious problems with pathfinding and lag.

In general, walls/palisades are spammed way too much and are way too strong relative to their cost/build time.

Also the fact that they take forever to convert means that a player can be killed and lose all their buildings in their base but retain control of their walls/palisades that are now located in an opposing players base. This means that, at a very cheap cost, a player that has been eliminated can still seriously delay an enemy from advancing on their allies' territory (during which time the ally also builds walls/palisades). 

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Can you detail what the problem is exactly compared to A23? I don't recall much change wall-side, but I certainly forgot.

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Wall Turrets are absurdly OP and will be nerfed in A25 whatever happens, that's on my list.

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3 hours ago, wraitii said:

Can you detail what the problem is exactly compared to A23? I don't recall much change wall-side, but I certainly forgot.

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Wall Turrets are absurdly OP and will be nerfed in A25 whatever happens, that's on my list.

It was a problem in a23 too. People do it more now because defensive structures are now OP. 

Basically, palisades/walls are very cheap and very quick to build. They also cause lag and mess with pathfinding. Even when you have siege, it takes a while to destroy walls/palisades. Walls/palisades also convert very slowly and much slower than other buildings (e.g. houses, barracks, etc.), so you can't even delete them to clear your path after you control the territory that they sit in. As a result, some players will spam walls/palisades. When spammed, they are built without any strategic importance aside from "i can build quicker than they can destroy."

Take a look at the attached replay for an example. Blue was all but dead since min 10 (at least 50 pop lower basically the entire time. At one point around min 28 he was down to about 40 pop but me and my ~15 unit siege army simply couldn't advance quickly enough because palisades blocked me) but because he built spammed walls quicker than I could destroy them (even though I always had a ton of siege). It took me about an hour to actually kill Dizaka, which I was only really able to do after his flank was killed. 

Simply put, a defending player with like 30 pop should not be able to so effectively slow an attacker that has max pop, a ton of siege, and control of the defenders' terrority. 

commands.txt metadata.json

Edit: there is another thread on the forum that I can't find that displays a similar effect but with a stronger effect on pathfinding. The replay was from a23 and Stockfish built a ton of half built palisades that caused units to do a lot of running around in circles while trying to attack. With an almost empty bases Stockfish was able to defend for a couple of minutes against a full attacking army

Edited by chrstgtr
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What about taking a page from Aoe2 and giving rams and maybe catapults splash damage against buildings too? So against single buildings the damage is the same but against buildings built right on top of eachother, like pallisades, the siege weapons would be much more effective. I really don't like the idea of putting limits on walls and such buildings

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8 minutes ago, ValihrAnt said:

What about taking a page from Aoe2 and giving rams and maybe catapults splash damage against buildings too? So against single buildings the damage is the same but against buildings built right on top of eachother, like pallisades, the siege weapons would be much more effective. I really don't like the idea of putting limits on walls and such buildings

That could be a good middle point and is something that I should should happen anyways.

I still think palisades will need to be nerfed some (probably through build time/cost) but that can wait for another alpha to see if it is necessary. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
6 hours ago, wraitii said:

Wall turrets attack has been nerfed. I would like to lower their HP & cost, and then possibly increase the cost of walls overall.

I'm not sure if something needs be done for palisades.

I don't think walls will be a problem in a24, particularly I saw very little walls, what I see most are palisades, and I particularly like that, but it would decrease your hack armor, so that it could be destroyed by melee soldiers more easily.
The current "turtling" is more focused on defensive structures such as CCs, towers and forts than walls.

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On 18/03/2021 at 11:32 AM, ValihrAnt said:

What about taking a page from Aoe2 and giving rams and maybe catapults splash damage against buildings too? So against single buildings the damage is the same but against buildings built right on top of eachother, like pallisades, the siege weapons would be much more effective. I really don't like the idea of putting limits on walls and such buildings

I like the idea of rams having some splash damage.

Anyway, i think catapults should be dmg buffed a bit for a25.

Edited by borg-
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