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Improving the capturing mechanic


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Why not work with equal numbers? For example, if you have 11 soldiers trying to capture a barracks with 10 soldiers garnished, then you capture that barracks slowly. If you have 10 soldiers trying to capture, then there is a tie. So if you have a center with 20 soldiers garnished, you can still be converted by an enemy with 30 soldiers trying to capture, it seems much easier to understand and promising

 

[Edit by wraitii: moved this from another thread, didn't expect it would end up on top :P]

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This thread to discuss capturing in 25

Scope: explicitly not a complete rework of the mechanic. My intent is to address some issues and make it more fun/more tactical to use in A25.

Gripes: Here are some issues I note:

  • Capturing a garrisoned building is essentially impossible: the garrison capture regen rate is too high and on top of that it increases the arrows of the building, so it's a real double whammy :P
  • It's very "instant win", particularly for CCs. This is because control is lost when the last Capture Point is lost.
  • Captured buildings can usually be insta-deleted, which is just weird.

Options (I'll try and keep this section updated):

  • One option I have started some work on is to introduce more capture stages.
    • A building could be disabled once control is < 75% (for example), meaning you would no longer be able to garrison inside / train units / whatever.
    • Control could be lost at say 25% & you would need 100% of CP to destroy it (so it would still take some time before you can do that).
  • Reduce the garrison regex rate
  • Preventing garrisoning from increasing capture regen, instead just making the units capture like when they attack (opens up an element of choice: do I garrison for arrow, or do I capture back?) 
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One problem is the balancing act between making something too easy to capture in Village/town phase (particularly: your starting CC), and making CCs too difficult to fight back in the "territory race".

IMO one good option would be to generalise the concept of the military colony. If all civs had a weaker building to claim territory, that could possibly Upgrade into a CC, we'd have more dynamic gameplay.

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One thing I had mentioned before that I generally liked as a possibility would be to make melee units provide more capture resistance at the cost of not being able to contribute arrows.  Some people didn't really care for that idea so there is that, but I think that it would make defence have a bit more strategic depth.  Honestly all of the above suggestions sound like improvements.

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On 03/03/2021 at 3:22 PM, wraitii said:

One problem is the balancing act between making something too easy to capture in Village/town phase (particularly: your starting CC), and making CCs too difficult to fight back in the "territory race".

IMO one good option would be to generalise the concept of the military colony. If all civs had a weaker building to claim territory, that could possibly Upgrade into a CC, we'd have more dynamic gameplay.

I mentioned that I have an idea to create a farmland. Whose center is a water reservoir, with the excuse of being an irrigation system for both mining and agriculture(but that's just an excuse for said building )which is really nothing more than less than a small colony.

With its own root territory.

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I'm strongly in favour of these changes:
 - Newly built CCs always start as village phase CCs and have to be upgraded individually. (This gives the enemy time to fight for that territory)
 - As soon as you have less than 66% capture points you can't delete a building. (This also the threshold in many democracies to vote on major changes (see wikipedia:Supermajority) and deleting a building is a major change ;))

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On 03/03/2021 at 6:47 PM, borg- said:

Why not work with equal numbers? For example, if you have 11 soldiers trying to capture a barracks with 10 soldiers garnished, then you capture that barracks slowly. If you have 10 soldiers trying to capture, then there is a tie. So if you have a center with 20 soldiers garnished, you can still be converted by an enemy with 30 soldiers trying to capture, it seems much easier to understand and promising

Keep in mind a fully garrisoned structure at e.g. 50% health is much easier to capture than the same structure at 100% health.

On 03/03/2021 at 10:19 PM, wraitii said:

Capturing a garrisoned building is essentially impossible: the garrison capture regen rate is too high and on top of that it increases the arrows of the building, so it's a real double whammy

A very large part of the problem are the high increases given by the phase advances: each garrisoning unit counters up to 1 champion in the village phase, whereas the same unit garrisoning the same structure counters up to 4 champions in the city phase. https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2845 addresses that.

For the arrow count of civic centres, see https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2854

And https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3601 lowers the city phase land grab.

44 minutes ago, Imarok said:

 - As soon as you have less than 66% capture points you can't delete a building. (This also the threshold in many democracies to vote on major changes (see wikipedia:Supermajority) and deleting a building is a major change ;))

Right now it's 50%. I don't really see how raising it to two-thirds would help capturing.

44 minutes ago, Imarok said:

- Newly built CCs always start as village phase CCs and have to be upgraded individually. (This gives the enemy time to fight for that territory)

This is something I really want to see too! I prefer how it was done in Rise of Nations, though:

  • cities have both territory (large) and a city radius (small);
  • most buildings could be built anywhere in your territory, but some (e.g. library, temple, university) only inside the city radius;
  • new cities start as a small city; once at least five unique buildings are inside its city radius, the city automatically becomes a large city; and once at least nine unique buildings are inside its city radius, the city automatically becomes a major city; and even if those buildings are destroyed, the city does not lose its size.

I believe doing it like that would work great in 0 A.D. as well.

The problem is a lot more art is needed (three versions of the civic centre for each faction).

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9 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Right now it's 50%. I don't really see how raising it to two-thirds would help capturing.

Oops, I thought it was 0% xD
Was it added in A24?

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22 minutes ago, Imarok said:

Oops, I thought it was 0% xD
Was it added in A24?

A24? No. A grep shows you need to look at the simulation/helpers/Command.js file and browsing its svn history shows it was actually done when capturing was implemented, with 16550, six years ago, i.e. it was already present in A19.

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1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Right now it's 50%. I don't really see how raising it to two-thirds would help capturing.

In fact, the problem is only in the "I capture a building, I can delete it" way, and since to capture the OG owner must have 0 CP, it's usually already > 50% for the new owner.

The only way to fix that is to transfer ownership at another value.

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9 minutes ago, wraitii said:

In fact, the problem is only in the "I capture a building, I can delete it" way, and since to capture the OG owner must have 0 CP, it's usually already > 50% for the new owner.

The only way to fix that is to transfer ownership at another value.

Or make deletion cost time.

If I recall correctly, when you deleted a building in Cossacks, it would start losing health, initially slowly (indicated with a tiny frame), though quickly accelerating (many flames visible); this gave players the opportunity to recapture and repair buildings before those collapsed.

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Rise of Nations had a characteristic called assimilation.

https://riseofnations.fandom.com/wiki/Assimilation

Assimilation is the process of restoring order in a captured city. It starts right after capturing a city by reducing its hit points to zero and moving infantry or cavalry units into proximity. By default, the assimilation process takes 2.2 minutes to complete, but there are some ways to speed it up or even eliminate the time.

 

A captured city and all of its civilian buildings and wonders immediately pass under the conqueror's nation's control. However, the city needs to be assimilated in order to be of any use to the conqueror. A city currently being assimilated...

 

may not create Citizens

may not be garrisoned

won't repair itself (see Strategies section below)

Does not benefit from some nation powers (such as the Mayan extra arrow); however, other nation powers (such as the Roman wealth bonus) do apply

In addition, the territory controlled by the city becomes neutral for as long as the assimilation takes place (it is not overridden with your own or other nation's territory). The Lakota cannot build in this neutral territory, except forts and cities, even though they can normally build in neutral territory. Economic buildings within the city's radius, such as Farms, can be worked on by citizens while it is being assimilated.

 

The assimilation process continues even if the attacker pulls all of his troops out of the city's vicinity. This is usually a bad idea, however, as the previous owner may simply recapture it by moving some military units into proximity. Recapturing a city currently being assimilated immediately restores full control of the city and the territory.

 

Note that all types of military structures will remain under the control of the attacked nation. This includes all production facilities (Barracks, Stable etc.), which may continue to produce troops, as well as defensive structures such as Towers and Forts, which will continue to attack the occupying forces. That is, unless a nation's last city is captured, in which case all remaining military structures pass under the control of the conqueror.

 

Buildings belonging to the city may be razed while it is being assimilated. The city itself may also be razed if there are no other buildings nearby.

 

 

 

Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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I would really like to see the ability to instantly capture empty Gaia structures (EDIT: and mechanical entities, see the War Story) by just garrisoning an entity within it. Then, instead of deleting, one can abandon a structure, i.e. give it to Gaia.

Edited by Freagarach
Mechanical entities.
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43 minutes ago, Freagarach said:

I would really like to see the ability to instantly capture empty Gaia structures (EDIT: and mechanical entities, see the War Story) by just garrisoning an entity within it. Then, instead of deleting, one can abandon a structure, i.e. give it to Gaia.

Well, if you think about it, outposts should do exactly that. And only give vision when the unit is garrisoned (or at least a considerable bonus).

But the same could be said about towers so, I guess gameplay-wise for those structures makes sense.

But in general it makes sense, I just am trying to imagine which sort of structure would be like that,

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