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Special Unit : Scouts


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33 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Also, a capture of the tower (which is currently quite easy) could be a disaster and nearly impossible to defend in some cases.

Oh yeah, I forgot about EA's insane reliance on capturing. IMHO, defensive and/or military structures should not be capturable. But w/e.

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
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  • 4 weeks later...

Big gameplay change are involved in this topic, and some suggestion are impacted by A25 gameplay patches

  • CC not able to train military unit :

I'm not sure it is a good idea, this will make you really dependent of the map. If you are lucky and you got extra food(hunt/berries) you will be able to spend your wood into a barracks and then you can be aggresive. In the other hand if you are unlucky and you don't have any extra food you will have to invest your wood into field, your barracks will be delayed by 2 min, which makes you extremly weak. Can be even worse with D2854.

And as @chrstgtr explain it will slow down rushes reactivity.

  • Baracks training higher rank unit:

I don't really like this idea, it will make the game slower. Barracks units are mainly used to boom during the first 10 min of the game and higher rank unit have lower gathering rates. Also higher rank unit is planned for mercenaries to differenciate them (D3699).

  • Citizen Cavalry not able to hunt anymore :

I don't like this idea, in my opinion it is a great innovation from this game giving dynamism to it. Being able to rush then gather some food on your way back and stealing opponent hunts are interresting gameplay. Hunting cavalry is part of this game identity.

Compared to citizen soldier they can't do much, they are not able to build or gather other ressources than meat.

There is already a cavalry not able to hunt the champions.

Well, i like multidisciplinary units being able to have a job during peacetime.

  • Using citizen infantry to hunt:

Infantry can already hunt, they hunt as fast as woman collect berries without the upgrade. In some rare situation it can be worth to use your infantry to hunt.

  • New unit the "Scout":

I like the idea to have a wider range of unit possibilities. having a unit dedicated to hunt and explore can be interresting. If you see this as a kind of mounted "woman", i like it, but if it is a unit meant to replace current phase 1 cavalry, I am not very enthusiastic.

Being able to build outpost is an interresting idea, I like it, but current A24 outpost need to be reworked otherwise it is not usefull.

  • Limitation of unit trainable:

I don't like this idea of limiting the quantity of unit trainable. Let some freedom to the players.

Limiting to 5 scouts: is it really worth it to make more if they can only hunt, explore and die ?

Limiting to 15 citizen soldier in the CC: i don't really see the point. In early game it is not much used to train citizen soldier being the only building where you can train women. and in the late game you don't need women anymore. As it is currently, the CC is useful all along the game.

 

6 hours ago, Stan` said:

@Edwarf is there anyway where it wouldn't be too much like AOE?

In AoE the scout can only explore and harass the oponent. Here if the scout can collect ressources, build outpost and being bad at fighting, it  doesn't seems to be too much like AoE. Especially if the current cavalry is kept as it is currently.

 

I think more opinions are needed about this unit, it is a big change.

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17 minutes ago, Edwarf said:

I don't really like this idea, it will make the game slower. Barracks units are mainly used to boom during the first 10 min of the game and higher rank unit have lower gathering rates. Also higher rank unit is planned for mercenaries to differenciate them (D3699).

That is precisely why it is being proposed.  A military structure used for economic purposes is an oxymoron. 

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12 minutes ago, Edwarf said:
  • New unit the "Scout":

I like the idea to have a wider range of unit possibilities. having a unit dedicated to hunt and explore can be interresting. If you see this as a kind of mounted "woman", i like it, but if it is a unit meant to replace current phase 1 cavalry, I am not very enthusiastic.

Being able to build outpost is an interresting idea, I like it, but current A24 outpost need to be reworked otherwise it is not usefull.

https://github.com/JustusAvramenko/scout-mod

 

The Scout only replaces the single starting cav. You can still train the cavalry javelineer or cavalry spearman (dependent on civ) from the CC to go hunt. Currently, to make more Scouts, you build a Stable. No units are disabled in Village Phase in this mod. Though, there is some idea to move the Scout training to the CC and the Cav Jav to the Stable. 

Outposts must definitely be improved, I agree. Probably to be more like A23, but also a few more improvements with towers in general (Delenda Est does a good job making towers more interesting). Perhaps I will include these improvements in the Better Scouting mod, or make a separate mod for Towers in general ("Better Towers" mod?). Probably include the Outpost improvements in Better Scouting and Defense Tower improvements in Better Towers. 

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1 minute ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

That is precisely why it is being proposed.  A military structure used for economic purposes is an oxymoron. 

Indeed. You don't build training facilities and train armies in order to boom your city's economy. In fact, building an army should be a rather large resource drain until they can bring loot back home from their conquests.

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
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46 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

An idea for scouts: knife cavalry that builds outposts, hunts chickens and has poor fighting skills. Perhaps limited to 1 per civ. 

you could create a patch at least to add it as a unit to the map editor; atlas?

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8 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

you could create a patch at least to add it as a unit to the map editor; atlas?

An untrainable unit available only in the map editor? Cool! But it is feature freeze already right?

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@wowgetoffyourcellphone made a mod already.

Anyway, I don't get why didn't anyone speak against this. On one hand, it strongly discourages casual cavalry rushes, which are particularly fun IMO, and also which everyone was missing in this last alpha apparently. On the other hand, if you have seen the (very interesting) video by @Genava55, you know that unharmed scouts were not really a thing, neither were specialized scouts (at least in republican Rome), so you can see this mod is not supported by history, quite the contrary instead.

Finally, I think this mod goes against citizen-soldier concept, by changing a versatile unit with one that is oddly specific for the easiest job in the game (any unit can scout, kushite players even use the priest for that). Also, I hope you are not considering making CS cavalry unable to hunt, because that would make them impossible to distinguish from champions, and probably quite confusing for everyone, and noobs particularly.

And what would be the reason for making this change anyway?

 

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2 hours ago, alre said:

you know that unharmed scouts were not really a thing

So were chicken farmer cavalry and yet...

2 hours ago, alre said:

On one hand, it strongly discourages casual cavalry rushes, which are particularly fun IMO

The idea of a village fielding large numbers of cavalry sounds problematic too.

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38 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

The idea of a village fielding large numbers of cavalry sounds problematic too.

Xiongnu be like: half of our population is cav :D

But this is a problem for every other civ though. 

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1 hour ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

So were chicken farmer cavalry and yet...

The idea of a village fielding large numbers of cavalry sounds problematic too.

introducing scouts does nothing to make chicken farming more realistic, nor it does disallow building "large numbers" of cav in village phase.

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2 hours ago, alre said:

introducing scouts does nothing to make chicken farming more realistic, nor it does disallow building "large numbers" of cav in village phase.

Neither of those were precisely my points.  You merely pointed to cavalry rushes being a generally good thing and used the logic of scouts not being a historically accurate notion.

I pointed to the idea of a horseman tending to chickens being another patently absurd mechanic from a history perspective; it may seem to be off topic, but that is a major source for propelling a sustainable cavalry engine.  You yourself said that it strongly discourages cavalry rushes, which themselves are weird for villages; I don't see that as a negative.  The point is this game cherry-picks historical accuracy in a way that a scouting unit is not necessarily a major problem to its vision.  

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4 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Neither of those were precisely my points.  You merely pointed to cavalry rushes being a generally good thing and used the logic of scouts not being a historically accurate notion.

I pointed to the idea of a horseman tending to chickens being another patently absurd mechanic from a history perspective; it may seem to be off topic, but that is a major source for propelling a sustainable cavalry engine.  You yourself said that it strongly discourages cavalry rushes, which themselves are weird for villages; I don't see that as a negative.  The point is this game cherry-picks historical accuracy in a way that a scouting unit is not necessarily a major problem to its vision.  

Give one scout cavalry that cannot farm chickens, instead, increase the meat gathering rate of women. 

Allow cavalry to hunt other animals, so that rushes are not too costly on the boom and cavalry still has an economic effect.

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16 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

I pointed to the idea of a horseman tending to chickens being another patently absurd mechanic from a history perspective; it may seem to be off topic, but that is a major source for propelling a sustainable cavalry engine.

It is not. Chicken can be tended by 1/2 horses, more is not efficient. You need to go hunting if you want to sustain more horses.

By the way, I still don't get what have your arguments to to with this scout unit. Is the scout really relevant to your idea of changing how cav works?

16 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

You yourself said that it strongly discourages cavalry rushes

Actually I said that it strongly discourages casual cavalry rushes. I meant those isolated kills that you may do while scouting (if you want to create a stronger cav force I guess you would be able to do it anyway). Also I said that those were fun, but I guess they are also pretty historically accurate if you look at the video above, were it's stated that scouts frequently did saboutage actions.

I guess that vid doesn't cover horsemanship in small iron age villages, but since we're having people on horse in phase 1, it's both more fun and more realistic to have them armed.

If you open another thread about village phase and cav, I'll be happy to share my opinion about that too.

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On 17/06/2021 at 11:28 PM, Yekaterina said:

An idea for scouts: knife cavalry

OK, I go on a mission to scout the opposing camp and I equip myself with : 1 a horse, 2 a knife.

seems good.

What also seems decent to me is to take an axe with you instead of the knife.

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3 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

What also seems decent to me is to take an axe with you instead of the knife.

Of course, the axe and knife make no difference, it's just about specifying attack types in the xml files. However, please suggest some stats:

1. Melee AttackRange? For reference spearmen have 3m, Pikes have 6, Swords and women have 2. 

2. Type of attack (doesn't matter too much for now unless axe or knife are given a specific bonus)

3. Speed

4. Armour and Health

5. The actual attack values: hack, pierce and crush

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