Jump to content

Special Unit : Scouts


Recommended Posts

Quote

I also find it interesting to start the game with scout instead of a spear / jave cav. Scout could hunt and have a bigger view than other cavs. Oher cavs could no longer hunt, so you can hunt with scout (limit of 1 per game) and you would need soldiers to hunt the other animals. For that, it would be necessary to increase the speed of hunting for citizen soldiers.

Quote

Since soldiers can only be trained in barracks now, I was thinking of adding a scout unit, like Dalenda.

You start with scout, can hunt, more vision range (vision ranged of units reduced 90* > 60*) and can build outpost. 

I think this makes it an important unit since units have a smaller line of sight now, it also makes outpost something more usable.

Scout must have a training limit of 1, and must be training in cc.

It needs a new animation for building??

What do you think?

 

Quotes by borg ^

Conditions:

1 per match (starting unit)

I personnaly dislike the fact that only it can gather.

Potential issues:

- It's a lot like AoM

- It furthers make the civilization identical.

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

if cav could not hunt anymore, that would drop cav rush even more, no? 

If regular soldiers would need to be used for hunting, their walk speed would need to go up else hunting would be nerfed even more, so making maps smaller by feeling?

also 1 scout per match seems to be low, I would suggest make it trash in combat but easy to train and it should be ok to have unlimited number, so one would use it to hunt animals which don't fight back, for others would need more expensive units? 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cavalry should have its cost reduced a little. Scouts can have damage, however very low. The limit of 1 is precisely to encourage the use of other hunts and not horses.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scout does not necessarily have to be related to hunting, that was just an idea. Another idea is that if neutralcamps, treasures or something like that are implemented, scout could be the unit responsible for discovering these alliances, or collecting these treasures. Anyway, I defend the implementation of scout.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the idea of scouts (but not that they should be limited in number). Think they should be able to fight, but be so trash that nobody would use them as combat units. I think all dedicated combat units should be removed from the CC, which should only be able to train women and scouts. To make it slightly more interesting, we could have a cav-scout and a slightly cheaper (running) foot-scout unit, both of them good at hunting and scouting (with large vision range), but bad at fighting. I'd vote for all military units to go to barracks, stables (and ranges).  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the idea of having Ccs training only women and scout. You would need more map view to get a sense of whether your enemy made a quick stable or barracks, which may surprise you with a rush.

Edited by borg-
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, it's annoying to have to scout with cav, which should be really used for raiding after intel gathered by the scout, a unit that is not so easy to lose to perform its function with higher los.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suppose first step is to put together a list of actors for 13 (Maybe 14 civs) this way I can create the actors as a mod, and then you can experiment with values.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I encourage you all to play around with Delenda Est's scouts and see if you like or dislike how they are implemented. It at least serves as an example you can work from.

You can differentiate a little by making some civs have camel scouts and others have horse scouts (DE does this, camels have a "stench" aura that makes them a little different, plus those Camel snarling sounds are just too fun).

Currently, Scouts in DE work as such:

Free 1 at the start. Can train up to 4 more from the Cavalry Stable. They are good for hunting, scouting, grabbing treasures, and dying. Their train limit is removed in Town phase. All other cavalry are purely military and can't hunt. I only made this cavalry-hunting change recently. I am on the fence about it, but I will keep it for my A24 release. 

The current git repo for the mod is fully compatible with A24 release, so can be tested by anyone who doesn't use SVN version (there are already A25 changes that break the mod; I am ignoring these for now).

https://github.com/JustusAvramenko/delenda_est

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I encourage you all to play around with Delenda Est's scouts and see if you like or dislike how they are implemented. It at least serves as an example you can work from.

You can differentiate a little by making some civs have camel scouts and others have horse scouts (DE does this, camels have a "stench" aura that makes them a little different, plus those Camel snarling sounds are just too fun).

Currently, Scouts in DE work as such:

Free 1 at the start. Can train up to 4 more from the Cavalry Stable. They are good for hunting, scouting, grabbing treasures, and dying. Their train limit is removed in Town phase. All other cavalry are purely military and can't hunt. I only made this cavalry-hunting change recently. I am on the fence about it, but I will keep it for my A24 release. 

The current git repo for the mod is fully compatible with A24 release, so can be tested by anyone who doesn't use SVN version (there are already A25 changes that break the mod; I am ignoring these for now).

https://github.com/JustusAvramenko/delenda_est

The idea that you have in dalenda is exactly the same as the idea that I have for scouts, incredible.

With a limit of scouts, maps with a lot of hunting or bad balance in favor of a player does not become very op, like collecting 5,000 food in minutes. This way the cavalry can be a little cheaper, since it can no longer hunt, facilitating harassment at the beginning of the game.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, borg- said:

Having the models is a big step.

@wackyserious, maybe you're interested in this?

I think it would make a lot of sense to have scouts double as hunters. Who else knows the lay of the land as well as hunters (making them excellent scouts!)? A very cool visual indicator, well attested in history, would be to pair the unit with a hunting dog that follows it around everywhere. Not those big military attack dogs, but the smaller hunting dog types. The dog would also justify the higher vision range (dogs notice things sooner, more sensitive hearing/smell, that alerts the owner). Dogs can/should be paired with both the foot scouts and cav scouts for easy recognition. 

Some inspiration for Roman, Greek and Kushite hunters (I'm sure @Nescio, could provide much better examples. And maybe @Genava55 could add Celtic examples?):

Spoiler

Roman:

yl2-3016428.jpg

92394677-closeup-view-of-a-hunter-scene-in-the-floor-of-the-old-roman-villa-del-casale-of-the-4th-century-a-c.jpghunter-roman-mosaic-floor-of-the-room-of-the-small-hunt-no-25-roman-mosaics-at-the-villa-romana-del-casale-circa-the-first-quarter-of-the-4th-ce-RXTGH1.jpg

 

Greek, but these are probably rooted in mythology, so use with caution. Just to give a possible idea:

12054561e021e24dde073dbf4c45f3da.jpg6dacf3f61f0465017a52f264fef48982.jpg

img-8-2.jpg

RG4BoarHunters5GreekKrater.jpg

 

Meroitic hunter:

Kingdom of Kush Kushite Meroitic pottery man with javelins and dog.jpg

 

Middle Kingdom era Nubian hunter from Aswan:

restricted.jpeg

 

Kushite hunting dog:

Kushite hunt dog hunter hunting 40056729_520746621684147_4074550953053782016_o.jpg

 

 

10 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

and dying.

Hahaha! I like your way. The only thing I don't like is the limit. Since they'd be all but useless in combat, why would anyone spam them? Just takes up pop, for a unit with limited use. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Stan` said:

I suppose first step is to put together a list of actors for 13 (Maybe 14 civs) this way I can create the actors as a mod, and then you can experiment with values.

 

2 hours ago, borg- said:

Having the models is a big step. From there it is just a matter of ideas of how we will work with scout.

Just grab the actors from Delenda Est's repo, Stan. No need for you to have to recreate the wheel (hoof). :) 

 

4 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

One thing I would like to see is the Athenians having a runner on foot as a scout.  Spartans should maybe start with a weaker Skiritae unit.  

I had this idea as well, just haven't implemented it. :) Just went with a generic cav scout for all Greek civs for balance. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

 

Here are DE's scout actors:

ivwpxpW.jpg

I gave them simple daggers. They aren't based on any specific references, just made them look like basic units of their own culture, so if y'all want to improve that aspect go ahead. :) 

Daggers and simple clothes make sense for a weak unit in combat. However I have a question, if we take hunting power from cavalry, how can scout kill elephants for example? It would be necessary to have a micro of range units, but I prefer to give a bonus against hunting for scout, which seems to me to make more sense and less micro work.

Edited by borg-
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, it also doesn't have much to do with cavalry being able to hunt, since cavalry was generally the most noble part of soldiers (I think).
Giving the virtue of hunting only to scounts was to differentiate this unit a little from the other cavalry, encouraging use.
Anyway, I see no problem with keeping hunting for all cavalry.
To differentiate scouts, not just higher vision, how about being able to build outpost, It's possible?  @Stan`

If due to animation problems or others, the scout can be an infantry.

Edited by borg-
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, borg- said:

To differentiate scouts, not just higher vision, how about being able to build outpost, It's possible?  @Stan`

If it is not possible, due to animation problems, the scout can be an infantry.

Isn't the animation available because of the nomads in Delenda Est?

Personally, I am in favor of this. I prefer scouting being a different approach, like building outpost, but maybe more in the future (trap, capturing enemy unit and converting it for spying, etc.). And keeping hunting for the other units.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Isn't the animation available because of the nomads in Delenda Est?

Personally, I am in favor of this. I prefer scouting being a different approach, like building outpost, but maybe more in the future (trap, capturing enemy unit and converting it for spying, etc.). And keeping hunting for the other units.

This.

 

It could have various functions as well depending on other mechanics than just later in the game.

 

For example it could have bonuses against certain units.

They could also serve as  fodders For tactical distraction measures in the middle of the battlefield.

What does occur to me is that certain defenses might have bonuses against this unit. For example CCs could kill them with one or two shots.

 

I like how they work in Delenda Es, But I don't know if you think it should work like this or suggest any changes.

 

With this we could take out the skirmisher cavalry from the CC.

 

There are people who find it boring not to initiate rapid attacks (rush strategy) We must also take these points of view and agree which units should belong to the stables and barracks, and which units belong to the civic center.

Obviously cavalry civilizations should be able to make big rushes early in the game.

 

It also requires us to rethink phase 1 of the game a bit for each civilization. (Whether some civilizations are stronger in cavalry and others in infantry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...