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Please make it a little less ... sexist


Crea
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3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Could there have been black Roman soldiers? Yes, but they would have been rare.

For any Principate or Dominate factions that could come in the future, it could be considered. Because it is grounded by historical evidences. However, if we want to portray each civ in a multi-ethnic fashion, it wouldn't be grounded by historical evidences. And this is similar to the gender neutral for the whole roster suggestion. No evidences and purely cosmetic.

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@m7600 come on just drop it. For most of us, it's not desirable to play a game with historical factions displaying clear politically correct revisionism. If you like the idea though, you can make a mod. It could even be MP compatible. So you get all the FUN you want.

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The fact that women have a farming bonus is an abstract projection of historical agriculture being female specialized. You can't frame that abstract concept as concrete and claim the game is portraying every single women as a farmer. The same goes for almost all of the points highlighted on the top of this thread.

You could lose that abstraction and actually design a game around with concrete identities, but as of now, the discussion is moot.

It's the same reason why realistic time cannot be used in RTS games, and time is also abstracted away, which is why I cringe when someone suggests adding day and night cycles. Do you know how weird and stupid it would make the game when you add concrete timeflow.

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I didn't know about the two gender mod... How does it work??? How does it look??? Does it have a figure of a warrior dress like a woman or a woman dress like a Swordsman, or something like that??? Just curious... I belong to a culture that is considered today as conservative, or primitive by modern generations in the USA, and English-speaking countries. Not offense intended to no one... Just asking out of curiosity. How the mod look?? What can anyone tell me about it??

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Actually, I was born in the US, I come from and old family of Cubans and Catalans, very hardcore catholic and traditional people. I move to Puerto Rico a few years ago an opened a business down here with my Puerto-Rican wife, well we are not marry, but been together for a long time. The Puertorrican people I have meet here come in all skin colors and shapes, and the ones that have become my friends, tend to be very smart, well-educated, most have their own businesses, and most tend to be very conservatives in their social behavior. So that is all I can tell you about Puertorricans because of my personal experience among them. To be honest, that calle 13 and all those names you have been mentioning, I hardly know who they are. I am not in to modern Puerto-Rican or modern American pop culture. I do listen to old Puertorrican Salsa, ( I love it) and Old English-speaking bands like ACDC, Pink Floyd, Gun and Roses or ZZ Top and the likes, My tastes and views about movies and shows is from another age different to the one today, too.  .... But I don't think is right to keep talking about myself, My intention on this discussion was not aimed at that... I was just asking about how good is the mod and what It looks like, out of curiosity, that's all. Any way, thanks for your time and attention. 

Edited by Belisarius17
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Crea is right. The language in the tutorial could be worded less sexist. I'm a 49 year old man & even I noticed that.

This isn't about historical context, it's about wording modern game text in a way that doesn't make women sound worthless to people playing it.

Quote

You have two main types of starting units: female citizens and citizen soldiers. Female citizens are purely economic units; they have low HP, no armor, and little to no attack. Citizen soldiers are workers by default but in times of need, can utilize a weapon to fight.

The description above singles out Females & then dismisses them as worthless in every area.
 

Since this is part of the Tutorial, it's one of the first things you read opening the game.

Personally I'd like to see both men & women in this untrained role, but at minimum the wording should be updated. 

Edited by Riquez
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5 hours ago, Riquez said:

Crea is right. The language in the tutorial could be worded less sexist. I'm a 49 year old man & even I noticed that.

This isn't about historical context, it's about wording modern game text in a way that doesn't make women sound worthless to people playing it.

The description above singles out Females & then dismisses them as worthless in every area.
 

Since this is part of the Tutorial, it's one of the first things you read opening the game.

Personally I'd like to see both men & women in this untrained role, but at minimum the wording should be updated. 

I agree with this. It should be made clear that while historically accurate, women couldn't fight not because they were unable to, but because they were not permitted to.

I tried to rephrase the sentence (pardon for grammar mistakes):

Quote

You have two main types of starting units: female citizens and citizen soldiers. Female citizens are purely economic units; they excel in gathering resources but they are not trained to fight. Citizen soldiers are workers by default but in times of need, can utilize a weapon to fight.

Also the word 'female' is meant for backend code, not for user facing description. Even the unit names are already Spartan women, Athenian women, not female citizen. Although I'm hesitate to replace female citizens with women. Also in ancient Greece I think women are not citizens, so perhaps civilian would be more appropriate.

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9 hours ago, Riquez said:

Female citizens are purely economic units

 

9 hours ago, Riquez said:

This isn't about historical context, it's about wording modern game text in a way that doesn't make women sound worthless to people playing it.

9 hours ago, Riquez said:

The description above singles out Females & then dismisses them as worthless in every area.

Why would an economical role be the equivalent of being worthless? Why is the warfare role more important than the economical one? You need both, without economics you can't deploy warfare. I'd say thats far from being useless or honourless.

I think men would be picked to fight over women 99.9% of the time with the current civs we have ingame. Don't quote me on it though.

But the mod wow made for having both male and female "gatherers" is a nice addition because that seems more realistic to me since not all men went to warfare.

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6 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

Why would an economical role be the equivalent of being worthless? Why is the warfare role more important than the economical one? You need both, without economics you can't deploy warfare. I'd say thats far from being useless or honourless.

Yes, you are absolutely right. But the issue is not true analysis of economics & warfare, it is simply the intro text to the game is worded in a sexist manner & that can easily be corrected.

"Female citizens are purely economic units" has a dismissive tone as to imply females are like currency & nothing more. 
I'm sure these words would roll easily from Caligula's tongue.
Remember, it's not about historical arguments if they were or were not, it's about how the text reads to a player today.

I think azayrahmad did an excellent job in just putting a positive point in there about those units. I would just drop "purely" & then the whole thing is less negative.

Quote

You have two main types of starting units: female citizens and citizen soldiers. Female citizens are economic units; they excel in gathering resources but they are not trained to fight. Citizen soldiers are workers by default but in times of need, can utilize a weapon to fight.

There is no 'woke' agenda here, I am not part of that movement at all. All I noticed was a intro that was a bit poorly worded & sounded negative & then I saw Crea's post & I replied because I agreed. It must be a bit off-putting for a girl reading that intro even before you start playing. Hopefully everyone can agree the above sounds more positive & clear for the game.

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14 minutes ago, Riquez said:

"Female citizens are purely economic units" has a dismissive tone as to imply females are like currency & nothing more. 

The Tutorial speaks strictly in the context of the game, no need to apply 0ad logic to real life. In the game, female citizens of most civs are purely economic units, that is very true. But just because 0ad is balanced that way it does not mean in real life women are worthless nor are the developers suggesting anything like that. There are many things in 0ad that are very unrealistic, but making everything perfectly real = nub balancing. There are many things which do not make sense in 0ad, for example elephants bashing their head against a fortress, cavalry units hacking a ram, etc, but, they make the game fun to play, which is what matters.  

 AoE Logic | Age of empires, Age of king, Empire

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About the 2 gender citizen mod, since we only need to replace the actors, we can use nani's trick to make it compatible for lobby games. Those who need it can use it but please do not implement that by default, as it is easier to distinguish citizen-workers from infantry if we keep all citizen-workers with a female phenotype and all infantry with male phenotype. 

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47 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

About the 2 gender citizen mod, since we only need to replace the actors, we can use nani's trick to make it compatible for lobby games. Those who need it can use it but please do not implement that by default, as it is easier to distinguish citizen-workers from infantry if we keep all citizen-workers with a female phenotype and all infantry with male phenotype. 

Were different textures and models not enough? Archers and spearmen are men, but they are not confused with each other.

 

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49 minutes ago, Lopess said:

Were different textures and models not enough?

I would think so.

50 minutes ago, Lopess said:

Archers and spearmen are men, but they are not confused with each other.

Jein (yes and no). I couldn't efficiently pick units by sight, so I either have'em in control groups or I do an area select and take it from there.

 

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On 16/07/2021 at 3:13 PM, Gurken Khan said:

Jein (yes and no). I couldn't efficiently pick units by sight, so I either have'em in control groups or I do an area select and take it from there.

and you can tell women apart from men instead?

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On 16/07/2021 at 8:20 AM, Lopess said:

Were different textures and models not enough? Archers and spearmen are men, but they are not confused with each other.

 

Yeah, it kills me how good ideas for this game constantly get put on the back burner because 1 person has some minor quibble. Were male villagers in Age of Empires ever confused with soldiers? No.

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
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  • 2 months later...

Hi everyone! This seems to be an old post but i got intrigued by the concept of two-gender gatherers. I haven't found the 2-gender citizen mod that people kept talking about so i went and built a little conceptual mod just to see how laborious it would be. 

I attached the results. I only did it for the Spartans though (since its conceptual).

As a whole, the game already has everything it need to implement this (no new art or animation required, well, maybe for the unit portrait icon).

As for the question of visibility (distinguishing soldiers from gatherers), it's already very hard to do it by sight alone, and much easier to just area select and work with the unit icons. Also, alt+area select already selects only soldiers (and i believe there is also one for only gatherers, but i can't remember right now).

Have fun everyone!

Male_gatherer_concept.zip

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