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Can we give macedonians some love?


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They really need some anti-ram unit, ram is not a proper ram counter.

It seems there were sword cav units (Paeonian and Thracian Cavalry), were there enough numbers to justify including them?

It seems that swords were also used as secondary weapons by some infantry, but making this work would open a can of worms (many other units had secondary weapons or dual-mode usage)

Any of our in-house historians know of any unit that could fulfill the role?

Edited by badosu
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Champions could be okayish if they get balanced (although there is still the problem if you are attacked before you get to them, especially with the introduction of siege workshops)

Edited by Feldfeld
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2 hours ago, badosu said:

It seems there were sword cav units (Paeonian and Thracian Cavalry), were there enough numbers to justify including them?

Their numbers are fine, but calling them sword cavalry is a bit of a stretch. All cavalry had swords (or a sagaris (axe) in the case of Scythian and Iranian horse archers) as side-arms to be used in emergencies, but Paeonians and Odrysians (Thracians) were light cavalry, fighting with javelins and avoiding melee. Functionally the two were the same, but they hailed from different regions (Paeonians from what is now North Macedonia, Odrysians lived in Southern Bulgaria and European Turkey), were often placed on different flanks (cf. Thessalians and Companions), and the Paeonians are known to have shields (the Thracians did not).

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The real problem is not really the Macedonians, but the weakness of spearmen:

                              ( hack + pierce + crush ) / time = damage per second
basic cavalry spearman      : (   6   +   5   +   0   ) / 2    =   5.5
basic cavalry swordsman     : (   6.5 +   0   +   0   ) / 0.75 =   8.667
basic cavalry axeman        : (   6.9 +   0   +   2.3 ) / 1    =   9.2
champion cavalry spearman   : (  12   +  10   +   0   ) / 2    =  11
champion cavalry swordsman  : (  13   +   0   +   0   ) / 0.75 =  17.333
champion cavalry axeman     : (  13.8 +   0   +   4.6 ) / 1    =  18.4
hero cavalry spearman       : (  24   +  20   +   0   ) / 2    =  22
hero cavalry swordsman      : (  26   +   0   +   0   ) / 0.75 =  34.667
hero cavalry axeman         : (  27.6 +   0   +   9.2 ) / 1    =  36.8
champion elephant           : (  20   +   0   + 150   ) / 1.5  = 113.333

The approach taken in @wowgetoffyourcellphone's mod Delenda Est is giving all melee units only hack damage (which necessitates bonus attacks to differentiate unit types), the approach taken in my 0abc mod is introducing a fourth damage type (thrust) for spearmen (which allows soft counters via differences in armour levels); both approaches make them effective vs rams (and other units).

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43 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Is the Thracian Black Cloak not good enough of a counter?

They are for Seleucids on Military Colonies, no such unit for Macedonians

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43 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Is the Thracian Black Cloak not good enough of a counter? I don't know, I rarely play EA these days. In DE spearmen are hack units (not half hack, half pierce as in EA), so do okay against rams.

Currently those are Athenian stoa champions (which is problematic). Historically they served as an elite vanguard under Philip V or Perseus, the last Macedonian kings. All other Macedonian soldiers are based on Alexander's army, though.

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19 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Currently those are Athenian stoa champions (which is problematic)

Yeah, I wish EA would implement some kind of consistent Mercenary system to allow for these outlier units. This would allow EA to give more unit types to all the civs and balance them out some, while retaining a uniqueness to each citizen roster. Whether EA adopts DE's mercenary system or some other system, I think it should be done, perhaps for Alpha 25.

 

Keep the Stoa as some kind of special building, but with a civic or cultural bonus (see DE, or some other bonus)

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
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2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Is the Thracian Black Cloak not good enough of a counter?

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Currently those are Athenian stoa champions (which is problematic). Historically they served as an elite vanguard under Philip V or Perseus, the last Macedonian kings. All other Macedonian soldiers are based on Alexander's army, though.

We've been over this before a few times already.

Black Cloaks are indeed a little problematic for the Athenians.

They were used by the Macedonians, on record. So they should at least be part of the Macedonian roster. 

It's a matter of increased historical accuracy, in addition to a better gameplay experience (finally a sword unit to counter rams).

It really seems like a straightforward fix to me. Add Thracian Black Cloaks to the Macedonian roster. It's a win-win. 

How did they even end up in the Athenian roster anyway? Not complaining or anything, but it almost seems like a simple mistake someone made x amount of years ago and it just stuck. Or is it a legacy from when all the Greek factions were still a single faction? 

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2 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Not complaining or anything, but it almost seems like a simple mistake someone made x amount of years ago and it just stuck.

That's true for many (most?) things in the public folder. The limiting factor is getting team members to commit things. There are currently about 60 gameplay patches open (and the backlog is growing).

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3 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

but it almost seems like a simple mistake someone made x amount of years ago and it just stuck

AFAIK it's just this here. No real discussion was made when the Royal Stoa, the Persian special building, etc. were added. They were just added to add some other cool stuff to the game. :) 

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On 7/3/2020 at 9:42 PM, Sundiata said:

We've been over this before a few times already.

Black Cloaks are indeed a little problematic for the Athenians.

They were used by the Macedonians, on record. So they should at least be part of the Macedonian roster. 

It's a matter of increased historical accuracy, in addition to a better gameplay experience (finally a sword unit to counter rams).

It really seems like a straightforward fix to me. Add Thracian Black Cloaks to the Macedonian roster. It's a win-win. 

How did they even end up in the Athenian roster anyway? Not complaining or anything, but it almost seems like a simple mistake someone made x amount of years ago and it just stuck. Or is it a legacy from when all the Greek factions were still a single faction? 

On 7/4/2020 at 11:53 AM, Stan` said:

Is there a patch for black cloaks? There seem to be q consensus here.

17 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Can you will help us with this patch? Please.

  Now there is: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2863

Edited by Nescio
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