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This is not a political message and should not be construed as such. This is just a matter of fact that everyone deserves a chance to live.

Enjoy your day and stay safe, wherever you are.

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This is not a political message and should not be construed as such. This is just a matter of fact that everyone deserves a chance to live. Enjoy your day and stay safe, wherever you are.

Ok people: cool it. I think we can all agree that the #BlackLivesMatter campaign is important, particularly after the events of the past couple of weeks. And yes, it is a pity that the actions of

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In 0ad same units are equally strong, independent of the civ, race, colour etc:

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Just got a bit worried about both their lives now...

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5 hours ago, SDM said:

This is not a political message and should not be construed as such. This is just a matter of fact that everyone deserves a chance to live.

Enjoy your day and stay safe, wherever you are.

Big proponent of #blm here. Last poll said 70+% of Americans think the police unfairly target minorities, that includes even a significant portion of Republicans (right wing conservatives). More positive change has come about in 2 weeks of protests than in 2 decades of voting.

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1 minute ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Big proponent of #blm here.

Same here. Not a resident of the US, although I did live in Seattle for a few years. 

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4 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Big proponent of #blm here. Last poll said 70+% of Americans think the police unfairly target minorities, that includes even a significant portion of Republicans (right wing conservatives). More positive change has come about in 2 weeks of protests than in 2 decades of voting.

I hope there will be deeper changes in the mentalities and in social protection instead of symbolic (and unsmart) destruction of Columbus, Churchill and other historical figures statues.

I can understand the issue about Confederate monuments (because they were build specifically to insult black people for a big part) but for the other historical figures it is really excessive.

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Old Frank Zappa lyric from the first Mothers of Invention album the song "Trouble Everyday" "I ain't black but sometimes I wish I wasn't white"

Enjoy the Choice :)

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17 minutes ago, Loki1950 said:

Old Frank Zappa lyric from the first Mothers of Invention album the song "Trouble Everyday" "I ain't black but sometimes I wish I wasn't white"

As the Western civilization is the only one to really have an interest in the defense of the minorities and in the human rights, I don't see why there is an issue in being white.

I don't see the point in cutting off the branch we're sitting on. I know white people have done bad things but it is not the full picture.

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2 hours ago, Genava55 said:

I hope there will be deeper changes in the mentalities and in social protection instead of symbolic (and unsmart) destruction of Columbus, Churchill and other historical figures statues.

Churchill I can give a pass on since he did some admittedly great things despite being a racist imperialist, but Columbus was so @#$% that he was roundly condemned even in his own time. There are plenty of other famous Italians that can be revered if the Italian American community still thinks they're being marginalized. Columbus had very very few redeeming qualities. 

 

2 hours ago, Genava55 said:

I can understand the issue about Confederate monuments (because they were build specifically to insult black people for a big part) but for the other historical figures it is really excessive.

Indeed, most being erected in the time of Jim Crow and the resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan. As you indicate, specifically as an insult and intimidation tactic. 

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36 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Churchill I can give a pass on since he did some admittedly great things despite being a racist imperialist, but Columbus was so @#$% that he was roundly condemned even in his own time.

Moralizing the actions of someone that died 5 centuries ago is really a bad idea.

Christopher Columbus is a major figure of history and most of all, of historiography.

And furthermore, nobody has currently discriminatory practices because of Columbus. It is pointless.

I am really against reshaping history because of ideological motives (moral is ideological).

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2 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Moralizing the actions of someone that died 5 centuries ago is really a bad idea.

No, it isn't. By your logic, 5 centuries from now on, it will be a bad idea to moralize about Hitler's actions. If an action is unethical, it will be unethical no matter when it was performed, be it in the past, present or future. You can question that if you're a relativist, but I agree with Immanuel Kant on this point: Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never merely as a means to an end, but always at the same time as an end.

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23 minutes ago, m7600 said:

By your logic, 5 centuries from now on, it will be a bad idea to moralize about Hitler's actions.

Hitler's action were viewed as bad in his current period. So you can moralize his action according to its context yes. But you cannot moralize his action from 5 centuries in the future. Maybe that most people 5 centuries in the future would not really give a s..t of his actions, the same way we do not care about the bad things made by most of our historical figures. Maybe yourself would be viewed as a bad person from the perspective of people 5 centuries in the future.

For example we could have 5 centuries in the future, the same view on Hitler than we currently have on Genghis Khan or on King Edward I.

There are plenty of historical figures that were bad persons from our current perspective. There are also several historical figures that were considered as bad persons by the standard of their epoch.

Even a peace figure like Charlie Chaplin was in fact a misogynist, see his relation with Lita Grey.

 

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@Genava55 That's relativism, not a cold hard fact.

Here's some food for thought: 2 + 2 = 4 no matter the place or time. It's valid for Ancient Rome, for our current time, and for the distant future. In the same way, an unethical action is always an unethical action, no matter the place or time. Ethics is universal because it is predicated upon an imperative which is not hypothetical, but instead categorical. You can claim that 2 + 2 = 5, that does not mean that you are right. An entire group of people, even the entire population of the world, can claim that 2 + 2 = 5. That does not mean that they are right either. Future generations can minimize or even glorify Hitler's actions, that does not mean that they are right.

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1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

Moralizing the actions of someone that died 5 centuries ago is really a bad idea

He was condemned in his own time for his actions...

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

Christopher Columbus is a major figure of history and most of all, of historiography.

And that's fine. We can learn about him at museums and in history books without revering him in statue. 

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

And furthermore, nobody has currently discriminatory practices because of Columbus. It is pointless.

First Nations tribes are still reeling from 500 years of degradation, ethnic cleansing, and forced poverty.

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

am really against reshaping history because of ideological motives (moral is ideological).

/Building/ the statues had an ideological motive. They weren't built by academics intending to represent history fairly and impartially. You've indicated already you understand that. Keeping them up is yet another ideological motive by many who oppose their removal.

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1 hour ago, Trinketos said:

And how are the protests in the USA?

The first week was pretty rough. Peaceful marches (with some sporadic vandalism and violence from some agitators) was met by massive overreach escalation from police forces. The proverbial mask is being ripped off. People protesting police brutality being brutalized by police. 

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2 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The first week was pretty rough. Peaceful marches (with some sporadic vandalism and violence from some agitators) was met by massive overreach escalation from police forces. The proverbial mask is being ripped off. People protesting police brutality being brutalized by police. 

But they keep protesting, right?

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1 minute ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The first week was pretty rough. Peaceful marches (with some sporadic vandalism and violence from some agitators) was met by massive overreach escalation from police forces. The proverbial mask is being ripped off. People protesting police brutality being brutalized by police. 

It's also worth mentioning that members of the police force disguised themselves as protesters and committed acts of vandalism themselves, just so that they can say afterwards: "See!? See how the protesters are vandals?!!!oneoneone".

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Ok people: cool it.

I think we can all agree that the #BlackLivesMatter campaign is important, particularly after the events of the past couple of weeks. And yes, it is a pity that the actions of a select few spoil it for everyone.

I think we can also all agree that all lives matter: regardless of race, creed, ethnicity, religion, disability, place in history, or any other factor.

However, this message is getting lost as this thread continues. Whilst we welcome constructive and reasoned discussion, the three posts immediately before this one did not meet this criteria, hence why they have been hidden and the users concerned given warnings. Please note that continuing to insult each other and/or act contrary to this forum's community guidelines/code of conduct/rules - particularly over such a sensitive topic - might lead to temporary bans of those that cannot keep a civil tone.

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