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1 hour ago, badosu said:

Any issues with 5-tier point system? I think it provides a decent solution

I see the issue that it makes team finding to complicated  and it needs extra rules for  3 player teams and so on. If not all the teams have the exact same strength i dont see a huge problem. Its basically that way in every sports league. As long as some level of competitiveness is given and there are some close matches its fine in my opinion.

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This is more discussion thread, sign up here please   As due to corona i had some time to think lately and also there are many players in lobby, i was wondering wether it could be a good ti

My Proposal for 4vs4 rankings: Category A (+/=/-): FeldFeld(+), ValihrAnt(=), borg-(-) Category B (++/+/=/-/--): Stockfish(++), Camelius(++), chrstgtr(+), fpre(-), PhyZic(=), faction02(=), B

I'm in! Applications open to join my team: "Embrace Nubness" I think tiers might be applicable y, my suggestion: Tier 1: Feld, Vali, Borg Tier 2: Stock, Phyzic, chrstgtr, Rauls, fpre, .. (o

@Marcus Aurelius not rly complicated. half the players half the points third the players third the points just have to make max for 4v4 something that divides by 3 and 2 like 12 . so in 4v4 12 is limit , in 3v3 8 in 2v2 6 ez.please dont give up on even teams idea itll be great and make things really interesting with every match being balanced.

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1 hour ago, vinme said:

ok im @#$% ed up rn ill be fine eventually i guess but not today rn im barely absorbing information so bear with me pweasu i missed some stuff forsure. i think its  a great idea to do team tournaments, option of choosing different tgs (2v2 3v3) if some player is absent(which will happen several times for sure) seems like it adds more wiggle room before the @#$% hits the fan but it does fuc over the players who wont get to play becuz of this worthy sacrifice tho atleat the tournament goes on.do different total point allowance per tg type so if 4v4 total 10 points allowed per team then 2v2 total 5 id say thats an ez solution. the core part of your idea with the rating system to make the teams evenly matched for more challenging interesting matches is really really good.if not 4v4 make team pick their players for that round AFTER civs are banned so doenst seem unfair to kick random players but more based on who plays avalible civs best with rome iber and tier 1 civs(from valis video) being chosen most often (altho wont be many options usually id assume with the points system ud just wanna fill it up).perhaps raise banned civs up to 3 to make things even more interesting altho maybe not.

 

lets not waste random players times and lets not allow them (possibly another) job that they dont get paid for.(communism is evil,it breeds corruption as it deservedly should(stupid commies get what they fucing deserve),absolute authority or anything that gives any advantage in power/status to people based on some rough sketch that the general population would find appealing without detailed reasoning on as many things as possible attracts parasites with inferiority complexes charity is fundamentally immoral insofar as you are ignoring the laws of human nature and ignoring reality is delusion delusion causes sickest awful things. just saying its an immoral way to think).its not necessary to have ppl rated by @PhyZik either ->_-> or is it @PhyZic. anyway dictatorship with phyzix is not good at all (altho arguably a dictatorial society is the theoretically only perfect one but solely dependent on who is the dictator so dont think im dissing dictatorships).im getting off point..ill make a thread with a system in place that feeds upon itself for electing judges and judging players to give them "their V(inme)rating aka true rating.i require no acceptance right now for it as when i do it you will see its design and all come on board .phyzir's extreme accuracy system is unnecessarily wierdly designed (im not even gonna mention the players balance in there -_-) see my plan on forum when i upload it ill call it "Vrating true player rating revealing system" or something with "Vrating" in it itll be classifying players based on actual rating(example 1300,1400 ect) not some wierd new language -_- then you can decide what to do with that it should be really useful for these things since rating can often but not usually be inaccurately depicting players skill level.

 

VERY IMPORTANT:

 

its good to be using an universal(or any specified) time that you already set but i still recommend really putting in effort into this part.most important thing you must do is make sure to minimize issues getting in the way of the matches being completed every round. by 19:00 what do you mean? specifically then everyone has to play or agree otherwise so an excuse to ban both teams if they cant agree as ull say "well u shouldve played at 19:00? thats not a good way to do it as thats a completely worthless thing to mention as its 1 specific time that id guess most(like 90% maybe even) teams wont even be compatible with and players will be signing up in hopes of setting their own time then players will have to be dealing with the same old issue of arranging the games thats already a supreme @#$% show with 1v1 tournaments as time  zones(sleep), work ect(even with corona many have stuff to do) most players have less than 6-8 hours of optional play time available a day and theres a great chance that those times dont overlap for plenty of players IN 1V1's let alone in tgs where if you were to go with your plan you'd create a logistics @#$% show imagine at least 4 players have to agree on a same time now not 2 so its 6 times as hard as hard for 2v2 as it is for a 1v1 let alone more.1 week WILL NOT be enough for this idk what will anyway bad idea period. im assuming most teams wont be able to do any 4v4s or 3v3s maybe some 2v2s might work but tournament would be ruined youd just be rewarding teams with players with more free time and better time zones as they can get more points(0ad tournament? more like tournament for most free time and thats why as i wrote on stockfishes rant "i blame stockfish" altho im assuming highly incoherently(sry) from what i recall and i might not remember well (my past self prob knew better so trust that source over this(correction..i re read my rant and i dont think i wrote even half of what i remember wanting to write in there and rest was very incoherent)).

TLDR: you have 2 options to manage this from what i recall 

option 1: set a time bracket 6 hours or less(yes many wont make it but make another one opposite from this one so others can play). preferably based on a timezone out of where most 0ad players are from and add several requirements for application for the tournament that i will list below.lets say you do 6 hour open time bracket tournament say 2pm-8pm window. now this is a great method because it also reduces the total amount of days you need per round.you wont need 1 whole week to complete the rounds. 

how id set the conditions as an example:

condition :THE TEAM must have free available time of at least 3 hours per day and at least 12 hours total sum of time in the 3 days within this time bracket. for example some team might have 2-5pm for 2 days and 2-8pm for 1 day total 12 at least 3 per day.

you will match up teams based on their time availability.very unlikely that there will be teams you cant match up if there is 2 players you cant match up then you can improvise by asking people on forums for flexibility with time(ofc more you raise the conditions less likely it is for some teams to not get matched up)but extremely unlikely with my conditions above.also i just realized since the teams are evened out by your great points idea you dont even have to match them up yourself! this is great you can just let teams find opponents to match up with this way no work for you they will find their opponents till everyone available goes away.yes it wont be perfect with ppl having preferences to fight their nemesis..es and many players with a lot of available time who shouldve matched with someone who only has time they can match up with(very unlikely this happens like 1% maybe) will choose some other team. but heres where the improvising comes in if this happens youll have to manually figure out a way to fit them in maybe change matchups if that helps ask for teams if they have some extra time available but since even amount of teams will have no opponent(prob 2)  consider disqualifying them if they cant arrange a game.(yes its unfair because its based on luck but its extraordinarily unlikely that they first get left out and then cant find a matchup even outside their stated hours for 6 total days as youll give them an option to find time to matchup even during round 2 as long as the winner can matchup with the second round available unmatched enemys hours on the last day enemy has privliges tho and his hours have to be used or the other team is disqualified ofc enemy can be polite and try to be more flexible. 1 day matchup/rest day after every round btw.

if the team later on refuses to play within the time bracket they have offered they lose the round automatically ofc if both teams wanna play on different times of both of their avalible time for some wierd reason you flip a coin for them.

you repeat this for every round. this option is good for quick tournaments but has mild flaws and risks that it makes up for with simplicity and fast paced system.

option 2:set a time bracket 12 hours or so and then 

make teams have like 2 hours free time within 14 hours each day(dont make them specify on the bracket like 6-8 or somehthing jsut tell them that the amount has to be within the bracket) with total of average 3 hours per day for 2 weeks or something like that so you know they have free timeand over 8 hours a day wont count lets say altho im assuming most matchups wont happen with times overlaping . then have a long @#$% matchup time maybe week and a half where everyone agrees on a matchup of round 1 and all other theoretical rounds so no one is left behind.in this option everyone must agree with every future opponent. easier with your evening out system as with 1v1 it wouldnt be fair to allow players to choose each other as many good players can choose weaker players to advance more easily ect with 1v1 i would allow players who couldnt agree even after trying hard to reenter the random shuffle given enough others are in it for randomness so they roll someone else.but with your system it works tho. so if team 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 are in a  tournament  with 1 2 matched up 3 4 matched up 5 6 matched up and 8 7 matched up for round 1 they all have to agree with 1 other matched up pair and set a time and same with every other future round as well so lets say 3 4 guys agree with 5 6 guys with 3 agreeing with 5 ,6 and so on so literally all rounds  4 for 16 teams  3 for 8 teams  ect will be filled in so there is literally no way in this method for things to go wrong after the tournament begins. things go wrong by ppl never agreeing fully as there is so much to plan and many will have not alot of time but eventually within week and a half hopefully it completely maps out solid and everything will be set.

option 2 gives advantage in making larger time bracket flexibility you can even remove mandatory time availability per day but i dont recommend,total time needed to gather players and then start is much harder here because of lax rules but with guaranteed map of everything it wont have any issues whatsoever when it starts.

much slower but much more secure and a lot more players can get in it as there arent as many conditions as in option 1.maybe good for huge tournaments with 64+ players as more room for error in those and you wont wanna resort to pausing the tournament for players to catch up ect.

also if you have lets say odd number of teams in finals like you dont wanna do a factor of 2 amount of games you can figure stuff out with odd final numbers you get like with 20,26 ect where you might get 3,5 players just make everyone play 2 other players(or teams).for example with 5 teams draw is extremely unlikely with everyone getting 1 point.if it happens just repeat again. more likely is only 1 getting 2 points or 2 getting 2 points.either it ends in 1 round or you make the 2 2 pointers play eachother.if this is confusing draw a circle and put 5 dots on it then put arrows connecting adjacent dots so you see who plays who. then put 1 2 or 0 on one dot and see what possibilities you can fill in for the rest. very very unlikely for this to draw but if it does no biggie just re.

 

teammates shouldn't be allowed to spec for obvious security reasons.preferably nobody should spec but if both teams agree to let someone spec then let them spec whats the problem? ofc even if 1 player wants spec(s) out for whatever reason be it lag,annoying messages or mere existence of someone watching then specs should be kicked.

 

so who decides which it is? im really hoping your not planning on making each matchup 5 games. maybe let each team pick 1 if your gonna have more than 1 game.both can pick same map then it goes twice.or just have 1 game per matchup id recommend to make things simpler.or even 1 different map per round.

 

 

 

 

 

if anyone wants to give me a payment for writing this it would give me an incentive to do more stuff like this.

bitcoin: bc1qr5kl85x0d6cu30ax7l4h09nlp7zv9dzcceggcu

monero: 8AhJ5i8kq9RBoJqvtDbgbibWypw652Adg9bghGgxm4D48JVZaU4zCsvjQ3N7DFn28X84Y3icPCrXCLxBbqPpGGqYEfTMPPY

every dollars worth gives me 1 more can of coconut milk .i'm drinking too much of that stuff each one has 250 calories.i drink 2 cans a day average

every 4 dollars worth gives me 4 dollars.

every 10 dollars gives me 1 600 gram steak cooked either rare or medium rare with some garlic butter maybe def with mashed potatoes or spinach or some side like that and eggs if i'm still hungry after that

don"t send more than that because i don't know what to do with it and you'll only stress me out with the extra responsibility.more stress>less new stuff so don't do it if you want me to do more of these.

 

 

Thanks for putting in all the thought. Every player who is willing to get involved in setting tiers is welcome to join Phyzic in doing so. It is good though to have a authority on this to prevent endless arguments.

For the issue of finding time i had the following concern doing something like you proposed: If you give a large timeframe and every team has to select like 2 hours within it is rather unlikely at some point that the time frames matches the opponents, same as when you define time zones ( as each team has to play against each team) and it will be alot of work to organize it that way. I chose 19.00 CET Sunday bc it was the time when Sunday Pro Games took place, and also Sunday is when most people are free. Also it kinda sucks to wait like 3 hours for the opponent team to show up. It also serves the purpose of not punishing the teams that actually have time, but their opponent cant find any time frame. I see endless arguments incoming without a basic rule. I admit that making the individual agreement work involves good will by all teams and a competitive mindset of players to find a solution that provides the biggest game. Maybe we could encourage using tools like doodle for finding out what is the best time for both teams. I thought about punishing both teams for playing a 2v2 to encourage finding a compromise  but it seems a bit unfair for the larger team members who freed up time to be able to play when other team players just dont show up. Also it encourages 4 player teams.

Edited by MarcusAureliu#s
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17 minutes ago, vinme said:

@Marcus Aurelius not rly complicated. half the players half the points third the players third the points just have to make max for 4v4 something that divides by 3 and 2 like 12 . so in 4v4 12 is limit , in 3v3 8 in 2v2 6 ez.please dont give up on even teams idea itll be great and make things really interesting with every match being balanced.

Right now we have 3 tiers and the system is kinda the same, wheter with points or player limits. I think with 4 tiers it will get even more difficult to classifie players as there will be many, maybe also relatively new players. Also i dont really see the point in  limiting tier 4 players as most players who can play on somewhat competitive level and are intrested to join the tournament will be like tier 4 anyway i guess

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@Marcus Aurelius check out my post in the Vrating . as for making the proper balanced tier list we can use the same method i used in my Vrating. a vote 

anyone can give their idea on the new thread you should make (since you had the original idea) just make ppl write their opinions based on the 18(was 12)total points for 4v4 system 

make them do it based on ranks like 1300-1500 example.

id write my example too.it wont be too complicated to make everything balanced its pretty clear to most people how player levels relate to each other

i raised to 18 to make it easier to do. as we def dont want 2 of the gold tier guys to be in the same team.but also if in 2v2 where point levels are 9 total in this case it means if lets say feld and 3 others were in a team and then 2 left and feld and 1 other person had to play then they might not fit because of the imbalance with the points issue(lets say feld is 8 but def should be 9) id say its fair tho to let feld play alone vs lets say 2 1400s or something or whatever makes up 9 points.with 0 point payer feld could have an ally even.

worst case some will go under it but this will be an even more fun thing to add as now team leaders have to find proper level players for every scenario to max their chances so instead of 8/9 they use 9/9

there should be 0 point rateds too tho  below 1200 or something if you allow that level.

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16 minutes ago, MarcusAureliu#s said:

Thanks for putting in all the thought. Every player who is willing to get involved in setting tiers is welcome to join Phyzic in doing so. It is good though to have a authority on this to prevent endless arguments.

For the issue of finding time i had the following concern doing something like you proposed: If you give a large timeframe and every team has to select like 2 hours within it is rather unlikely at some point that the time frames matches the opponents and it will be alot of work to organize it that way. I chose 19.00 CET Sunday bc it was the time when Sunday Pro Games took place, and also Sunday is when most people are free. Also it kinda sucks to wait like 3 hours for the opponent team to show up. It also serves the purpose of not punishing the teams that actually have time, but their opponent cant find any time frame. I see endless arguments incoming without a basic rule. I admit that making the individual agreement work involves good will by all teams and a competitive mindset of players to find a solution that provides the biggest game. I thought about punishing both teams for playing a 2v2 to encourage finding a compromise  but it seems a bit unfair for the larger team members who freed up time to be able to play when other team players just dont show up. Also it encourages 4 player teams

trust me on this you dont wanna rely on players good will. a large amount of games will get messed up and youll have alot of stuff to deal with. really really bad idea. its been done b4. 

ive explained alternatives.making someone from japan play someone from USA is a really bad idea. it causes all sorts of issues . you NEED time brackets 

now choosing option 1 i wrote about or option 2 is the question tbh. i recommend option 1 its faster

Edited by vinme
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i mean any just taped together design will work but if you want max outreach dont try to take everything at once. pick a time bracket from most popular 0ad playing stats (idk if thoes exist if not ask around when are most ppl around) and do option 1 on it. solves all the problems. im assuming you didnt read my thing because you thought it was too long but i mention there that even 1v1s have significant issues with matchups and such especially in no restrictions/conditions tournaments let alone teamgames even 2v2 increases that problem 4 FUCVVING times because first 1 player has to agree to another then third has to agree to these 2 and then fourth has to agree to these 3. like if 1v1 working without any restrictions average chance was lets say 60-70% then 60/4= 15% it wont work. please consider adding restrictions.

Edited by vinme
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4 minutes ago, badosu said:

Vinme, stop flooding. Let the guy organize the tournament :laugh:

i'm genuinely trying to help.badosu pls read my post XD i was so sleep deprived took me hour and a half to put together itll take 5 min to read.looks long cuz quotes and skipped lines

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6 minutes ago, vinme said:

i'm genuinely trying to help.badosu pls read my post XD i was so sleep deprived took me hour and a half to put together itll take 5 min to read.looks long cuz quotes and skipped lines

i appreciate your thoughts, but consider if you make time brackets you have only half the matches and if you have weaker bracket you have advantage. I think we should first let teams register and then see how the timing can be done bc now we can only speculate

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thats true   @MarcusAureliu#s

smaller the time bracket less people will play! that is what you said and you are 100% correct

but consider THIS.for the EXACT same reason that less ppl will play in bracket matches..for the exact same reason you will have shitton of issues with your matchups.

you cant eat the cake and have it too. if you make 2 tournaments or more you can get all of the market as ive mentioned in my long comment. do polar opposites and then arrange a 1v1(but lets not even consider that as then both tournaments need equal players and that wont be likely) with the champs if you want.

brackets have more reasons other than only letting players who are free then play.in option 1 they also only let players  who have enough time so to agree to a matchup play.very important as well.

edit:polar opposite example 12 am-6pm 12pm-6am

 

Edited by vinme
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In-Game Team Right:

How about a rule that when players go missing (disconnected, leaving), then a total of 5 minutes pausing per match is available (doesnt matter how often they disconnects/connects, join, leave, the time counts until the player is completely joined in game and ready to continue playing again), then the other team can enforce no more pausing possible if they want. Just giving them a right to take. The team can of course doesn't have to choose that right and just keep waiting.

So we keep a good time frame as valid for playing if the other team wants.

@MarcusAurelius @AllOthers

Edited by ffffffff
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2 hours ago, ffffffff said:

In-Game Team Right:

How about a rule that when players go missing (disconnected, leaving), then a total of 5 minutes pausing per match is available (doesnt matter how often they disconnects/connects, join, leave, the time counts until the player is completely joined in game and ready to continue playing again), then the other team can enforce no more pausing possible if they want. Just giving them a right to take. The team can of course doesn't have to choose that right and just keep waiting.

So we keep a good time frame as valid for playing if the other team wants.

@MarcusAurelius @AllOthers

I will add that, thx 

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I think balaland (fixed) might be good to include in map pool.

I also made adjustments to wrench and cross (both large for 4v4). If wrench included i recommend fixed positions or staggered (12121212) as it can get a bit turtly on 11112222.

If we have a large enough map pool we can also include mechanic to ban 1 map for each team.

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/27654-balanced-maps-mod/&do=findComment&comment=396390

Edited by badosu
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