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Balance Mod to test changes.


ValihrAnt
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This is a balance mod meant for testing changes before creating patches for them on trac. The changes are purposefully small and not drastic, and I don't plan to fix all of the balance issues as I don't have too much time available and additionally it makes it harder to get into the game. Additionally I'm also limited by other factors, such as map generation. Currently mines are spawned entirely randomly, which means that in team games one team will occasionally enjoy a huge metal advantage, while the other team has no extra metal mines or has to share 1 mine between all of them. This means that if champions are balanced in such a way that they are cost efficient vs citizen soldiers then we will much more frequently have the winning side decided on map generation.

CURRENT CHANGES
Team bonuses:
    Iber: 20% to 10%
    Rome: 20% to 10%
    Kush: 20% to 10%
Technologies:
    Loom: 50% to 100% and cost from 150F to 200F
    Armor plating: 500W, 250M to 300W, 150M
    Advanced Siege: 1000W, 500M to 700W, 300M
Citizen soldiers:
    Slingers: 9.5P, 1C and 3.0 accuracy to 9.2P, 0.9C and 3.5 accuracy(right between skirms and archers).
    Archers: 6P to 6.7P.
Citizen cavalry:
    Cavalry archers: Move speed from 17.5(same as javelin cavalry) to 16.0 and run speed from 29.2 to 26.6
Elephants:
    War Elephant: 250F, 250M to 300F, 200M
    Elephant Archer: 200F, 80W, 20M to 150F, 75W
Champions:
    Archer Cav: Move speed from 20.3 to 18.4 and run speed from 33.8 to 30.7
Catapults: Splash damage radius: 10m to 7m
Buildings:
    Carthaginian temple: 400S to 300S
    Kushite small pyramid: 300F, 300S to 300S

 

VERSION 6.0 CHANGES

Actually changed archer damage to 6.7P from 6.8P
Fixed elephant archer speed, as I originally didn't realise they had cav archers as parent template.
Carthaginian temple cost from 400S to 300S
Kushite small pyramid cost reduced from 300F 300S to 300S

Spoiler

Changes in this mod.


Team bonuses:
    Iber: 20% to 10%
    Rome: 20% to 10%
    Kush: 20% to 10%
Technologies:
    Loom: 50% to 100% and cost from 150F to 200F
    Armor plating: 500W, 250M to 300W, 150M
    Advanced Siege: 1000W, 500M to 700W, 300M
Citizen soldiers:
    Slingers: 9.5P, 1C and 3.0 accuracy to 9.2P, 0.9C and 3.5 accuracy(right between skirms and archers).
    Archers: 6P to 6.7P.
Citizen cavalry:
    Cavalry archers: Move speed from 17.5(same as javelin cavalry) to 16.0 and run speed from 29.2 to 26.6
Elephants:
    War Elephant: 250F, 250M to 300F, 200M
    Elephant Archer: 200F, 80W, 20M to 150F, 75W
Champions:
    Archer Cav: Move speed from 20.3 to 18.4 and run speed from 33.8 to 30.7
Catapults: Splash damage radius: 10m to 7m
    
INITIAL CHANGES

Team bonuses:
    Iber: 20% to 10%
    Rome: 20% to 10%
    Kush: 20% to 10%
Technologies:
    Loom: 50% to 100%
    Unlock champion units: 1000M and 90s to 300M and 120s.
    Armor plating: 500W, 250M to 300W, 150M
    Advanced Siege: 1000W, 500M to 600W, 300M
Citizen soldiers:
    Slingers: 9.5P, 1C and 3.0 accuracy to 9.2P, 0.9C and 3.5 accuracy(right between skirms and archers).
    Archers: 6P to 6.8P.
Elephants:
    War Elephant: 250M, 250F to 225M, 225F
    Elephant Archer: 200F, 80W, 20M to 150F, 75W
Champions:
    Infantry: 125F, 75W, 100M, 20s to 90F, 75W, 30M, 15s
    Cavalry: 250F, 100W, 100M, 30s to 150F, 90W, 45M 20s
        Sword Cav: 250F, 100W, 100M to 150F, 80W, 55M
Merc Champs: Black Cloaks and Fanas the same. So they're still strong P2, but mostly uncompetitive P3.
    Skirmishers: 100W, 150M to 75W, 90M
    Heavy Swords and Cardaces Hoplite: 75W, 150M to 75W, 90M

VERSION 3.0 CHANGES

Technologies:
    Loom: 50% to 100% and cost from 150F to 200F
    Advanced Siege: 1000W, 500M to 700W, 300M
Citizen cavalry:
    Cavalry archers: Move speed from 17.5(same as javelin cavalry) to 15.4 and run speed from 29.2 to 25.7
Champions:
    Archer Cav: Move speed from 20.3 to 17.8 and run speed from 33.8 to 29.7
    Crush based champion metal cost increased by 30M:
        Mauryan Yoddhas from 90F, 75W, 30M to 90F, 75W, 60M
        Iberian Fire Cav from 150F, 90W, 45M to 150F, 90W, 75M

VERSION 4.0 CHANGES

Champion cost increased:
    Champ cav from 150F 90W 45M to 175F 90W 50M
        Champ sword cav 150F 80W 55M to 175F 80W 60M
    Champ infantry swords 90F 75W 30M to 90F 75W 40M
        Mauryan Yoddhas 90F 75W 60M to 90F 75W 70M
    Champ infantry spear and pike 90F 75W 30M to 90F 85W 30M
    Champ infantry archers 90F 75W 30M to 90F 90W 30M
        
    Cavalry archer speed change: move from 15.4 to 16.0 and run from 25.7 to 26.6
    Champion cav archers speed change: from 17.8 to 18.4 and run from 29.7 to 30.7

    Merc Champs:
        Skirmishers 75W 150M to 100W 90M
        Heavy swords 75W 150M to 75W 105M
        Cardaces Hoplite 75W 150M to 85W 90M

VERSION 5.0 CHANGES

Reverted all champion changes, due to extra metal mine spawns being entirely random. This means that very often 1 team will have a considerable advantage, due to having access to extra metal. I've even played multiple matches just in this balancing mod where one team had only 1 or no extra metal mines at all, while the other team had safe access to all other metal spawns. Also removed the champion tech unlock change.

Citizen archers: 6.8P to 6.7P
War elephants: 225F and 225M to 300F and 200M
Catapults: Splash damage radius: 10m to 7m

VERSION 6.0 CHANGES

Actually changed archer damage to 6.7P from 6.8P
Fixed elephant archer speed, as I originally didn't realise they had cav archers as parent template.
Carthaginian temple cost from 400S to 300S
Kushite small pyramid cost reduced from 300F 300S to 300S

 

 

BalanceTestModV6.zip

Edited by ValihrAnt
Update the mod to V6
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1 hour ago, av93 said:


Is not more a problem of acceptance between the team, rather than Borg being willing to implement it?
 

As far as I know, the team would be willing to implement it. But I've been working for many months on this mod, and I would need many more months to convert it to a24 and make the patches separate and up. It's a time I don't have now, unfortunately.

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Quote

@borg-, @ValihrAnt Couldn't you guys work together as a team ? 

Thanks for the initative btw :)

I'm not doing this all alone. I have mostly been cooperating with Feld as borg- is generally harder for me to reach, but both of them have given me their opinions on things, helped test and offered suggestions on how to improve the changes.

Edited by ValihrAnt
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ValihrAnt's patch looks useful to improve the gameplay fast and relatively easily, but now i'm more worried about borg's changes. If there is an intention to eventually let them into the game, it can become harder the longer it's postponed. I believe rebasing those changes onto the new alpha wouldn't be comparably hard to making and testing them, especially for someone used to working with patches.

How strict is the requirement of separating the changes into several patches? This is something that could be really hard to do. There has been a lot of testing of the mod as a whole. Trying to split it into several patches could be as hard as making several balanced mods out of the borg's original one. I think an exception should be considered in this case. If we agree to allow submitting borg's mod in a single patch, I'd consider volunteering in rebasing those changes onto the current game version.

Is it possible to get a any of guarantee that making the rebase won't come to a waste?

Edited by Boudica
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These sound like some pretty straight forward ideas.  Thanks for taking the time to look at this!  I can't wait to try it.

For Black cloaks and P2 mercenary champions:  Why not have a cheap technology that makes them a bit stronger in P3 instead of reducing their cost?  It would have a similar effect if you want them to continued to get used in P3.

I hope this goes well!

 

@borg-  Sorry to hear you don't have the time.  I really like your mod as it is and I feel it adds more than just balance to the game.  I know there were a couple people trolling you on it a while back, I hope you didn't take their opinions to heart to much.  I'm not sure they even tried playing your mod.  Some people are maybe just afraid of change.

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@ValihrAnt, @borg-, @Boudica, Am I seeing a game balance department in the making? 

If you're able to reach consensus on things amongst yourselves, then convincing the community probably won't be that hard.

We need some experienced people to take initiative on this, because there currently isn't a balance department in the dev team.

If you work as a team on this, you'd effectively become that department, and I think the devs might/should be amenable to this.

Even if they're not, we'll just start a small riot on the forum (and by riot I mean a public poll or something :P

Just make sure the documentation is on point, so that everyone can easily see all the changes (even if there are hundreds of changes, we just need a list).

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34 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Even if they're not, we'll just start a small riot on the forum (and by riot I mean a public poll or something :P

"since when do we care about forum polls?" - a recent quote where the context was very similar to this one.

The correct course of action is to just:

https://code.wildfiregames.com/differential/diff/create/ and hope someone looks at the thing and goes "hey, that might be cool. I need to add that".

 

Also, if you need inspiration or something, https://code.wildfiregames.com/D1400. It was conjured up by two top players. Seems like neither of them are really around anymore.

Edited by smiley
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1 hour ago, Boudica said:

ValihrAnt's patch looks useful to improve the gameplay fast and relatively easily, but now i'm more worried about borg's changes. If there is an intention to eventually let them into the game, it can become harder the longer it's postponed. I believe rebasing those changes onto the new alpha wouldn't be comparably hard to making and testing them, especially for someone used to working with patches.

How strict is the requirement of separating the changes into several patches? This is something that could be really hard to do. There has been a lot of testing of the mod as a whole. Trying to split it into several patches could be as hard as making several balanced mods out of the borg's original one. I think an exception should be considered in this case. If we agree to allow submitting borg's mod in a single patch, I'd consider volunteering in rebasing those changes onto the current game version.

Is it possible to get a any of guarantee that making the rebase won't come to a waste?

Which really takes time is to make the patches separate. If we could upload a complete patch, I would certainly could work on it.

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I'll take a look at the source and work on the weekend to figure out how to make changes in separate commits.

Does the development team accept patches in.. well patch format? Since I use git I would be more comfortable just using my workflow and sending each patch separately.

Some should be pretty straightforward to be included in separate patches/commits, e.g.: loom 100% health, archer buff, slinger nerf, ele buff, etc...

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4 hours ago, badosu said:

I'll take a look at the source and work on the weekend to figure out how to make changes in separate commits.

Does the development team accept patches in.. well patch format? Since I use git I would be more comfortable just using my workflow and sending each patch separately.

Some should be pretty straightforward to be included in separate patches/commits, e.g.: loom 100% health, archer buff, slinger nerf, ele buff, etc...

This is not straightforward because the reason the mod has to be broken in several patches is to organize them functionally in order to indepedently discuss them/ test their behaviour, meaning that a functionnality like the counter system will be spread over several files, but also that a template file can be affected by multiple functionnalities (patches), eg borg's counter system and base stats harmonization.

Edit : ah thought you were speaking about borg's mod, in Valihrant's case it's different since most of the changes in files are indeed independant from each other making the process much easier

Edited by Feldfeld
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The mod has now been updated. I initially stopped working on the mod after the revitalization on completing borg's balance mod, but as all activity on it has died down I'm back to finish up this mod.

VERSION 3.0 CHANGES

Technologies:
    Loom:  cost from 150F to 200F
    Advanced Siege: 600W, 300M to 700W, 300M
Citizen cavalry:
    Cavalry archers: Move speed from 17.5(same as javelin cavalry) to 15.4 and run speed from 29.2 to 25.7
Champions:
    Archer Cav: Move speed from 20.3 to 17.8 and run speed from 33.8 to 29.7
    Crush based champion metal cost increased by 30M:
        Mauryan Yoddhas from 90F, 75W, 30M to 90F, 75W, 60M
        Iberian Fire Cav from 150F, 90W, 45M to 150F, 90W, 75M

 

Mod can be downloaded from the initial thread.

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On 11/4/2019 at 7:01 PM, ValihrAnt said:

As borg- isn't going to be implementing his balance mod to base game and no one else is planning to do anything about current game balance, I decided to take things into my own hands and prepare some changes. I am most interested in the champion changes and how they play out in team games. Their stats are fine in the current base game, the reason they aren't used is their high cost. I also reduced their metal cost quite severely since metal mine spawns aren't consistent and in team games there rarely are enough mines for all players. During testing they are able to fight cost efficiently against citizen soldiers, but don't dominate. When playing 1v1s against Feldfeld it felt like champions are much more useful, but not a necessity.

Of course there are other changes. Slingers are nerfed, archers buffed, cavalry archers(camels) have had their speed reduced.

Changes in this mod.

Team bonuses:
    Iber: 20% to 10%
    Rome: 20% to 10%
    Kush: 20% to 10%
Technologies:
    Loom: 50% to 100% and cost from 150F to 200F
    Unlock champion units: 1000M and 90s to 300M and 120s.
    Armor plating: 500W, 250M to 300W, 150M
    Advanced Siege: 1000W, 500M to 700W, 300M
Citizen soldiers:
    Slingers: 9.5P, 1C and 3.0 accuracy to 9.2P, 0.9C and 3.5 accuracy(right between skirms and archers).
    Archers: 6P to 6.8P.
Citizen cavalry:
    Cavalry archers: Move speed from 17.5(same as javelin cavalry) to 15.4 and run speed from 29.2 to 25.7
Elephants:
    War Elephant: 250M, 250F to 225M, 225F
    Elephant Archer: 200F, 80W, 20M to 150F, 75W
Champions:
    Infantry: 125F, 75W, 100M, 20s to 90F, 75W, 30M, 15s
    Cavalry: 250F, 100W, 100M, 30s to 150F, 90W, 45M 20s
        Sword Cav: 250F, 100W, 100M to 150F, 80W, 55M
        Archer Cav: Move speed from 20.3 to 17.8 and run speed from 33.8 to 29.7
    Crush based champion cost increased by 30M:
        Mauryan Yoddhas from 90F, 75W, 30M to 90F, 75W, 60M
        Iberian Fire Cav from 150F, 90W, 45M to 150F, 90W, 75M
Merc Champs: Black Cloaks and Fanas the same. So they're still strong P2, but will be unable to compete P3. Idk how to have P3 automatically reduce their cost, but it would be good to have their cost drop right after P3 is reached.
    Skirmishers: 100W, 150M to 75W, 90M
    Heavy Swords and Cardaces Hoplite: 75W, 150M to 75W, 90M

Spoiler
 
 
this mod download ??
 
2
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INITIAL CHANGES

Team bonuses:
    Iber: 20% to 10%
    Rome: 20% to 10%
    Kush: 20% to 10%
Technologies:
    Loom: 50% to 100%
    Unlock champion units: 1000M and 90s to 300M and 120s.
    Armor plating: 500W, 250M to 300W, 150M
    Advanced Siege: 1000W, 500M to 600W, 300M
Citizen soldiers:
    Slingers: 9.5P, 1C and 3.0 accuracy to 9.2P, 0.9C and 3.5 accuracy(right between skirms and archers).
    Archers: 6P to 6.8P.
Elephants:
    War Elephant: 250M, 250F to 225M, 225F
    Elephant Archer: 200F, 80W, 20M to 150F, 75W
Champions:
    Infantry: 125F, 75W, 100M, 20s to 90F, 75W, 30M, 15s
    Cavalry: 250F, 100W, 100M, 30s to 150F, 90W, 45M 20s
        Sword Cav: 250F, 100W, 100M to 150F, 80W, 55M
Merc Champs: Black Cloaks and Fanas the same. So they're still strong P2, but will be unable to compete P3. Idk how to have P3 automatically reduce their cost, but it would be good to have their cost drop right after P3 is reached.
    Skirmishers: 100W, 150M to 75W, 90M
    Heavy Swords and Cardaces Hoplite: 75W, 150M to 75W, 90M

VERSION 3.0 CHANGES

Technologies:
    Loom: 50% to 100% and cost from 150F to 200F
    Advanced Siege: 1000W, 500M to 700W, 300M
Citizen cavalry:
    Cavalry archers: Move speed from 17.5(same as javelin cavalry) to 15.4 and run speed from 29.2 to 25.7
Champions:
    Archer Cav: Move speed from 20.3 to 17.8 and run speed from 33.8 to 29.7
    Crush based champion metal cost increased by 30M:
        Mauryan Yoddhas from 90F, 75W, 30M to 90F, 75W, 60M
        Iberian Fire Cav from 150F, 90W, 45M to 150F, 90W, 75M

 

 

BalanceTestMod.zip 34.19 kB · 1 download

 

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Through these days I've played and spectated a lot of matches with the mod. And so far I'm satisfied with the citizen soldier and technology changes and I haven't received complaints about them either. What I have received complaints about, though, are the champion changes where the feedback was very split. Some people were happy about them and some not so much.

In my experience champion infantry melee units are in a good spot. It isn't a rush to get to them and then losing is impossible, they can be dealt with by players utilizing fully citizen soldier armies, but that's not so much the case for ranged infantry or cavalry, which currently seem a bit too strong. Ranged infantry are generally a fair distance away from the frontline and that way suffer much fewer casualties meaning they are more cost efficient, due to which I think it would be warranted for them to have a higher cost. Cavalry champ cost in general is too low now I think, so that's something I'll change for the next version.

I would also really like to know the opinions of the players on this since I generally only know the stance and not the reasoning behind it.

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On 11/4/2019 at 7:01 PM, ValihrAnt said:

Champions:
    Infantry: 125F, 75W, 100M, 20s to 90F, 75W, 30M, 15s
    Cavalry: 250F, 100W, 100M, 30s to 150F, 90W, 45M 20s
        Sword Cav: 250F, 100W, 100M to 150F, 80W, 55M

These are the most significant changes: infantry from 300 to 205 resources, cavalry from 450 to 285. Champions used to be rather expensive (towers cost only 200), so I'm not against making them cheaper. However, perhaps reduce their armour a bit to compensate. (Four armour levels is equivalent to +52% health and champions already have twice as much health as citizens, so effectively they're three times as hard to kill. Plus they have double the attack damage, so they're “worth” six times as much?)

Maybe it would be a good idea to take the opportunity to differentiate unit types by their cost; e.g.:

Spoiler
  • citizen infantry: 100 resources, 10 seconds
    • javelinist: 50 food + 50 wood
    • spearman: 50 food + 40 wood + 10 metal
    • swordsman: 50 food + 30 wood + 20 metal
  • citizen cavalry: 150 resources, 15 seconds
    • javelinist: 100 food + 50 wood
    • spearman: 100 food + 40 wood + 10 metal
    • swordsman: 100 food + 30 wood + 20 metal
  • champion infantry: 200 resources, 20 seconds
    • javelinist: 100 food + 75 wood + 25 metal
    • spearman: 100 food + 65 wood + 35 metal
    • swordsman: 100 food + 55 wood + 45 metal
    • maceman (yoddha): 100 food + 40 wood + 60 metal
  • champion cavalry: 300 resources, 25 seconds
    • javelinist: 150 food + 100 wood + 50 metal
    • spearman: 150 food + 90 wood + 60 metal
    • swordsman: 150 food + 80 wood + 70 metal
  • champion elephants: 600 resources, 30 seconds
    • melee: 300 food + 150 wood + 150 metal

(Just throwing up some numbers, didn't test.)

Of course, it's up to you, it's your mod.

On 11/4/2019 at 7:01 PM, ValihrAnt said:

    Loom: 50% to 100% and cost from 150F to 200F

Maybe change it to +2 armour for 100 wood (no food) instead?

The other changes in your mod are rather minor and probably not very controversial.

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New mod version uploaded and is available from the first post.

Quote

make those champs cost 2 pop

Currently champs aren't strong enough for that to be required. Would make them obsolete in the current balance, but maybe in some future rebalancing.

Quote

Maybe it would be a good idea to take the opportunity to differentiate unit types by their cost

I suppose it wouldn't be bad to do so and it is already done for some units (swordsmen in vanilla, swords and all champion infantry types in my mod). Additionally why change something that works perfectly fine considering that the changes will require much more testing and one of my goals is to keep the changes as uncomplicated as possible.

Quote

These are the most significant changes: infantry from 300 to 205 resources, cavalry from 450 to 285. Champions used to be rather expensive (towers cost only 200), so I'm not against making them cheaper. However, perhaps reduce their armour a bit to compensate. (Four armour levels is equivalent to +52% health and champions already have twice as much health as citizens, so effectively they're three times as hard to kill. Plus they have double the attack damage, so they're “worth” six times as much?)

I have increased cost of champs slightly in the newest version. 4 armor levels is 34% armor, I'm not exactly sure how that would work out to 52% extra hp but maybe I'm missing something. Additionally armor levels don't scale linearly. 4 armor is 34%, level 5 is 41%, level 6 is 47%, 7 is 52% and so on. Normal spear cav have 4 base pierce armor and champ spear cav have 8 pierce armor, that is 34% vs 57% pierce armor. With armor upgrades those percentage differences become smaller. For the champions having two times more health, it is half true. Champions have 2x more health of phase 1 units, but phase 2 gives a 20% hp bonus to just citizen soldiers and phase 3 gives a 10% hp bonus on top of the phase 2 hp value. So the difference becomes quite a bit smaller. There are a few more things disadvantages, those are that champions give more loot and experience, and that they can't work or build. So champs don't work out to be 6x better in the end. 0ADs citizen soldier utility makes things on the balancing department a lot more difficult.

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