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===[TASK]=== Crowd Sourced - Judeans (Hasmonean) [Faction]


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16 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

I'm confused about the Zealots, as on page 1 you had sources with clubs or as swordsmen, and now it's knives? Just wondering. (Does 'knife' implicate a length or a method of production?)

 

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Is the zealot depicted just a freelancer and not the same as the army unit?

 

 

In fact I mean the most common form of the zealots the sucarii.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicarii

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On 11/05/2021 at 1:31 AM, Yekaterina said:

How about we add Jesus as a hero to this civ?

What damage do you suggest for his whip-attack?

 

27 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

He is also known for murder of the innocents but I am not sure how to turn that into a positive aura effect. 

Insta-kill on females? Or just a regular attack bonus.

 

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10 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

What damage do you suggest for his whip-attack

Whip attack? What is that? Since Jesus was quite a pacifist we can let him be the ultimate healing hero, with an aura effect that doubles the hp of all units within 40 metres. (Resurrection) ;)

10 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

Insta-kill on females? Or just a regular attack bonus.

I am afraid he only killed male children, however, this is a good aura, especially if enemy women are destroying your rams.

 

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1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

Whip attack? What is that? Since Jesus was quite a pacifist we can let him be the ultimate healing hero, with an aura effect that doubles the hp of all units within 40 metres. (Resurrection) ;)

I think that the whip is in reference to Jesus using whip to drive out animals that were being sold in the temple.  

That aside, I would strongly argue that neither of these people would be appropriate for the Hasmonean Kingdom.  Jesus is depicted as having few patriotic sympathies, talking about the kingdom of heaven instead of literally creating a physical regime.  Herod the Great on the other hand was highly unpopular and possibly a sociopath.  Last, neither of these heroes fit into the timeframe.

Instead, I would recommend Simeon the Righteous, a high priest who was famous for rebuilding Jerusalem's walls and was famous for his piety.

Salome Alexandra, as the last queen, would be interesting as well as she extended the kingdom's borders to their largest extent.  I would advise a fortress discount due to her making extensive fortifications along the border.

John Hyrcanus could be another option as well, with a mercenary discount.

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1 hour ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

I think that the whip is in reference to Jesus using whip to drive out animals that were being sold in the temple. 

Well, he also drove out the traders with his whip and knocked over the tables of the money changers, spoiling their coins on the ground; a bit less a meek approach then he is stereotypically portrayed.

@Thorfinn the Shallow Minded I agree that your proposed heroes sound like better choices for inclusion.

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1 hour ago, Gurken Khan said:

Well, he also drove out the traders with his whip and knocked over the tables of the money changers, spoiling their coins on the ground; a bit less a meek approach then he is stereotypically portrayed.

That's because some traders asked unfair prices. An unfair scale is actually one of the things God hates. And a temple is no place for doing bussiness, fair or unfair. He also fulfilled a prophecy doing that. Texts for reference: Jer 7:11, Mt 21:13, Ps 69:9, Pr 11:1

 

Edited by Grapjas
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5 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Salome Alexandra, as the last queen, would be interesting as well as she extended the kingdom's borders to their largest extent.  I would advise a fortress discount due to her making extensive fortifications along the border.

it's a good option.

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5 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

That aside, I would strongly argue that neither of these people would be appropriate for the Hasmonean Kingdom

Limit ourselves to the Hasmoneans only I don't think it's such a good idea.

 

We would leave the Maccabees and Herodians out, if we take this path.

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Heroes was a person with psychotic tendencies.

In view of such executions, the emperor Augustus reportedly quipped, “It is better to be Herod’s pig than son” (Macrobius, Saturnalia, 2:4:11)—the joke being that, since Herod was a Jewish, he didn’t eat pork and his pig would be safe.

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56 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

We would leave the Maccabees and Herodians out, if we take this path.

The Maccabees are the Hasmoneans.  Leaving out the Herodians is perfectly fine by me; they represent a time in which the kingdom was nothing more than a client state.  

 

5 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

Well, he also drove out the traders with his whip and knocked over the tables of the money changers, spoiling their coins on the ground; a bit less a meek approach then he is stereotypically portrayed.

Small quibble to make: the text is fairly ambiguous as to whether he used the whip in particular to drive out the money changers; my reading would be against that interpretation, but scholars from throughout history have sided both ways.

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Wait we can make jesus!!! OP hero. Maybe he should have a feature where he dies and then your temples change into churches wow. Maybe he can train apostles (up to 12).

Maybe jesus could make a trickle of food as a hero bonus. From the miracle of spontaneously multiplying the food for all those people that one time.

 

 

Edited by BreakfastBurrito_007
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46 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Small quibble to make: the text is fairly ambiguous as to whether he used the whip in particular to drive out the money changers; my reading would be against that interpretation, but scholars from throughout history have sided both ways.

Quibbling back I'd argue that I wrote "drove out the traders with his whip and knocked over the tables of the money changers"; knocking over the changers' tables and driving out the traders seems to be pretty consistent in the versions I glanced over. (I don't even have a guess if he supposedly lashed out against the traders or just used the whip threateningly.) Since I'm neither going to learn Aramaic nor Ancient Greek in this life, I won't consider myself an authority on biblical matters anyway. ;)

To make this post not completely off-topic: Maybe the choice of the hero could depend on what you guys think this faction needs? Offensive, defensive, economic buff? Mercs?

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4 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

The Maccabees are the Hasmoneans.

Not all. There is a stage when they become Hellenists.

Https://www.academia.edu/6284903/Hasmonean_Hellenism

 

I'm going to call it Late Hasmoneans.

You have to understand the geopolitical context and the intentions of Rome and the Greeks.

 

Ideologically Later Hasmoneans  were very Hellenistic.

 

Even his way of representing  the Jewish symbols were in a Hellenistic way, just look at the coinage. 

 

The Hasmoneans were mostly represented by the sect Sadducees. Sudeceans believed only in Torah.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadducees

After the death of Alexander in 323 BCE, his generals divided the empire among themselves and for the next 30 years, they fought for control of the empire. Judea was first controlled by the Ptolemies of Egypt (r. 301–200 BCE) and later by the Seleucids of Syria (r. 200–167). King Antiochus Epiphanes of Syria, a Seleucid, disrupted whatever peace there had been in Judea when he desecrated the temple in Jerusalem and forced Jews to violate the Torah. Most prominent of the rebel groups were the Maccabees, led by Mattathias the Hasmonean and his son Judah the Maccabee. Though the Maccabees rebelled against the Seleucids in 164 BCE, Seleucid rule did not end for another 20 years. The Maccabean (a.k.a. Hasmonean) rule lasted until 63 BCE, when the Roman general Pompey conquered Jerusalem.

When it started, they went from being nationalists to Hellenized.

 

What began in glory ended in ignominy. The nine Hasmonean rulers to be recognized by the Roman senate engaged in the same political intrigues, self- aggrandizement, and bloodshed as the previous regime. When two brothers who were not eligible claimed the kingship, they called on a representative of Rome to arbitrate. Foolishly repeating the mistake of the Hellenized Jews, the contending brothers opened the door to the Roman conquest, which ended their rule (when Herod killed the last of them) after just 103 years and ended Jewish sovereignty.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 23/05/2021 at 12:22 PM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Instead, I would recommend Simeon the Righteous, a high priest who was famous for rebuilding Jerusalem's walls and was famous for his piety.

Salome Alexandra, as the last queen, would be interesting as well as she extended the kingdom's borders to their largest extent.  I would advise a fortress discount due to her making extensive fortifications along the border.

John Hyrcanus could be another option as well, with a mercenary discount.

Wall-related bonuses might lead to turtling. Well, the players who play this mod will probably be playing against a single bot so I guess that is not a huge deal. I can add these 3 and delete the existing: Judah and Harod. 

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17 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Macabbeus is already there. Please just tell me the stats you want.

Should these be infantry or cav? 

Judeans lack cav

Mindful of the superiority of Seleucid forces during the first two years of the revolt, Judah's strategy was to avoid any engagement with their regular army, and to resort to guerrilla warfare, in order to give them a feeling of insecurity. The strategy enabled Judah to win a string of victories. At the battle of Nahal el-Haramiah (wadi haramia), he defeated a small Seleucid force under the command of Apollonius, governor of Samaria, who was killed. Judah took possession of Apollonius's sword and used it until his death as a symbol of vengeance. After Nahal el-Haramiah, recruits flocked to the Jewish cause.

Infantry sword.

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Alexander Jannaeus' son, Hyrcanus II, had scarcely reigned three months when his younger brother, Aristobulus II, rose in rebellion, whereupon Hyrcanus advanced against him at the head of an army of mercenaries and his Pharisee followers: "Now Hyrcanus was heir to the kingdom, and to him did his mother commit it before she died; but Aristobulus was superior to him in power and magnanimity; and when there was a battle between them, to decide the dispute about the kingdom, near Jericho, the greatest part deserted Hyrcanus, and went over to Aristobulus.

 

Mercenaries ... I must find out what kind of mercenaries

 

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