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Civ: Germans (Suebians and Goths)


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6 minutes ago, Obskiuras said:

So they represent them in Total War but i don´t know if it is historically correct

Generally with Total War, it is not the case, especially for barbarians. For example the penannular brooch is something widespread during the Migration Period and Viking Period. But they used it for a Pre-Roman Iron Age unit.

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Just now, Genava55 said:

Generally with Total War, it is not the case, especially for barbarians. For example the penannular brooch is something widespread during the Migration Period and Viking Period. But they used it for a Pre-Roman Iron Age unit.

Then don´t even talk about using it as a refernce, the problem is that we will have to be say imaginative, which i don´t like.

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The Roman Senator and historian Tacitus wrote in his work, Germania:

A specially powerful incitement to valor is that the squadrons and divisions are not made up at random by the mustering of chance-comers, but are each composed of men of one family or clan. Close by them, too, are their nearest and dearest, so that they can hear the shrieks of their women-folk and the wailing of their children. These are the witnesses whom each man reverences most highly, whose praise he most desires. It is to their mothers and wives that they go to have their wounds treated, and the women are not afraid to count and compare the gashes. They also carry supplies of food to the combatants and encourage them.

It stands on record that armies already wavering and on the point of collapse have been rallied by the women, pleading heroically with their men, thrusting forward their bared bosoms, and making them realize the imminent prospect of enslavement -- a fate which the Germans fear more desperately for their women than for themselves. Indeed, you can secure a surer hold on these nations if you compel them to include among a consignment of hostages some girls of noble family. More than this, they believe that there resides in women an element of holiness and a gift of prophecy; and so they do not scorn to ask their advice, or lightly disregard their replies.The women were more than just morale builders, though. They provided aid and comfort to their men after the battle was over, of course. And they would bring supplies and food to their male warriors in the middle of the fight.
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1 minute ago, Obskiuras said:

The Roman Senator and historian Tacitus wrote in his work, Germania:

A specially powerful incitement to valor is that the squadrons and divisions are not made up at random by the mustering of chance-comers, but are each composed of men of one family or clan. Close by them, too, are their nearest and dearest, so that they can hear the shrieks of their women-folk and the wailing of their children. These are the witnesses whom each man reverences most highly, whose praise he most desires. It is to their mothers and wives that they go to have their wounds treated, and the women are not afraid to count and compare the gashes. They also carry supplies of food to the combatants and encourage them.

It stands on record that armies already wavering and on the point of collapse have been rallied by the women, pleading heroically with their men, thrusting forward their bared bosoms, and making them realize the imminent prospect of enslavement -- a fate which the Germans fear more desperately for their women than for themselves. Indeed, you can secure a surer hold on these nations if you compel them to include among a consignment of hostages some girls of noble family. More than this, they believe that there resides in women an element of holiness and a gift of prophecy; and so they do not scorn to ask their advice, or lightly disregard their replies.The women were more than just morale builders, though. They provided aid and comfort to their men after the battle was over, of course. And they would bring supplies and food to their male warriors in the middle of the fight.

With this information i came up with an idea, give citizan women a special aura that makes soldiers fight better!

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19 hours ago, Obskiuras said:

Then don´t even talk about using it as a refernce, the problem is that we will have to be say imaginative, which i don´t like.

Which is exactly what they did for the most part. Look at their concept arts, this is mixing a few historical elements drowned in a huge pile of fantasy, cliché and LARP adornments:https://www.artstation.com/artwork/56agO   https://www.artstation.com/artwork/A04LV

Honestly, I don't think it will be worst to start again from the scarce information and to be imaginative.

Some advices to give an easy to follow guideline in this prospect of creative designs and imaginative challenges in building a new roster:

- First of all, acknowledge the fact that everybody is biased by his own mental representation and by the clichés that have been popularized about an ancient culture. For example "historical" illustrations have a long legacy of b*llshit, which is normal since our knowledge is increasing through time, but it took always longer for the illustrations to become accurate to a state of art in our knowledge than for the actual knowledge to progress. Illustrations, video games, movies etc., they are always missing the boat (lagging several steps behind). Just be aware of that is important. I still regularly see Celts designed with bronze age equipment and adornment because the artists are simply relying on older illustrations and basic blog articles.

- Try to develop a basic portrait of the society before to create the roster and the units. Do not create or design a spearman because you want a spearman and because it is cool. You should separate the two things: In one side what the game needs, in the other what the historical evidences offer. For example, the Germans have a regular scheme with a chieftain, followed by some retainers and bodyguards that act like officers (comites) and by a warband of lower class warriors. Tacitus explained that the framae is the common weapon for the Germanic warrior, only few have swords and fewer armors and helmets.

- Try to be aware of the message conveyed by the design of the unit. Clearly, a lot of soft material never survived the time past and archeological records are not very helping for the hairstyle, the textiles and other aspects of the outfit (although in this case they are a few bog bodies found that can be useful). If you decide to portray a warrior wearing a bearskin and you end with a Caveman Übermensch muscular like Conan the Barbarian and carrying two swords... needless to say it would be far from reality. This is an extreme example but in the case of the Total War concept arts, they decided to put soft elements that never have been found on their design simply because they wanted to make their units looking different. In this is why there are so often b*llshit in their designs, archeology cannot give you a proper picture, some details are lost forever and often people fill the lack of evidences with their clichés they are carrying about ancient cultures. Our modern mind, especially when we are accustomed to video games, is biased to look for extravagance and exotism. This connects with the first advice as a second warning during the process. There are plenty of room for imagination in the hairstyle, in the textile, in the adornment and in the decoration of the weapons. Staying credible and temperate our own imagination is the difficulty. A way to stay in the reality is to remember than all humans are closely related to their neighbors, by their geographical proximity they are following evolutions with more similarities than differences. Most people think about the Germans like barbarians with a kind of allergy to civilization. This cannot be more wrong, Germans were mostly different because they were poorer and less connected to the Roman economy. But actually, they liked the Roman culture, possessing Roman items seems to have been a great deal for them. During the Migration Period, they tried to look like and to act like Romans do.

Edited by Genava55
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3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

First of all, acknowledge the fact that everybody is biased by his own mental representation and by the clichés that have been popularized about an ancient culture. For example "historical" illustrations have a long legacy of b*llshit, which is normal since our knowledge is increasing through time, but it took always longer for the illustrations to become accurate to a state of art in our knowledge than for the actual knowledge to progress. Illustrations, video games, movies etc., they are always missing the boat (lagging several steps behind). Just be aware of that is important. I still regularly see Celts designed with bronze age equipment and adornment because the artists are simply relying on older illustrations and basic blog articles.

You're very passionate about these cultures. As much as I do with my Romans.

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In front of the CC can there be a footpath to the door and maybe some posts or statues or something to fill out a square footprint? CC can also have baskets and other items. 

Great Hall can have a stack of weapons and shields outside the doorway and along the sides.

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
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23 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

In front of the CC can there be a footpath to the door and maybe some posts or statues or something to fill out a square footprint? CC can also have baskets and other items. 

Great Hall can have a stack of weapons and shields outside the doorway and along the sides.

Well, i leave those details to you if it doesn´t bother you hahahahahaha!

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3 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Estoy seguro que estos conceptos terminarán en el juego principal. Por eso el esmero y Justus es un lider exigente y uno muy bueno. 

Si lo se, se hace notar. Me gusta la idea de que estos conceptos lleguen a estar en el juego principal, para mañana les hago una versión mas detallada y ajustado a las necesidades.

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1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

In front of the CC can there be a footpath to the door and maybe some posts or statues or something to fill out a square footprint? CC can also have baskets and other items. 

Great Hall can have a stack of weapons and shields outside the doorway and along the sides.

For tomorrow i make a more detailed version and adjusted to the needs @wowgetoffyourcellphone

Edited by Obskiuras
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15 minutes ago, Obskiuras said:

Si lo se, se hace notar. Me gusta la idea de que estos conceptos lleguen a estar en el juego principal, para mañana les hago una versión mas detallada y ajustado a las necesidades.

If you want make sketchs about the ideas for props. Geneva can  check if are accurate. 

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57 minutes ago, Stan` said:

So you guys opted for slate rooves instead of thatch ? Any reason ?

By the way, a question for @wowgetoffyourcellphone the plan is to create a common building set for the Suebians AND the Goths? Or to build two different sets?

Maybe thatched roofs for the Suebians and wooden slates for the Goths could be an option. Historically, thatched roofs should have been the most frequent options but we can tweak this exceptionally.

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1 hour ago, av93 said:

Thatched roofs for houses, and wooden slates for important buildings?

Why not but it is exactly what is done for the Celts. But anyway, even a full set of thatched roofs could be different from the Gauls. The color and the texture can vary

 

Illustrations, models and pictures from the Alamannen-Museum (4 and 5th century AD):

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Feddersen Wierde

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feddersen_Wierde

https://www.burg-bederkesa.de/archaeologie-im-museum/feddersen-wierde/

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Franks - Wohn-Stall-Haus aus Bielefeld, Archäologie-Museum Münster

http://www.ingelheimer-geschichte.de/index.php?id=148

 

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Reconstruction of a gothic long farm house near Masłomęcz am Hrubieszów (2nd / 3rd century)

http://www.wioska-gotow.pl/

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Vandalen settlement (4th C. AD)

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Thuringia

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Edited by Genava55
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46 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

By the way, a question for @wowgetoffyourcellphone the plan is to create a common building set for the Suebians AND the Goths? Or to build two different sets?

Maybe thatched roofs for the Suebians and wooden slates for the Goths could be an option. Historically, thatched roofs should have been the most frequent options but we can tweak this exceptionally.

The issue is that the Germanic tribes had a simple way of building buildings, designed to be easily assembled and disassembled, the houses were built with wooden posts nailed to the ground and the walls were made with wicker and then covered with mud, They had a rather precarious way of life. That changed as they made contact with the Roman Empire, they gave it infrastructure, organization, improved people's quality of life and low infant mortality, all this liked the Germans very much and tried to imitate the Romans, consequently his way of building and living became a bit more sophisticated, so the most important buildings use wooden slates. This is also noticeable in the structures of the Germanic buildings in the late time, the buildings were improving, the buildings of the Goths will be of stone.

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