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Civ: Germans (Suebians and Goths)


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langhaus-roem-kaiserzeit01a.jpg.66f67d28f9b918edeeecef44f682e661.jpg3213494_web.jpg.66645a74e32ded87bf0883c32964d98e.jpgcsm_langhaus_kl_544587c1a4.jpg.9cf6f796f9757cf0255f545fba3ab779.jpgunnamed.jpg.53f4df42afca28cb627f1bd455e10865.jpg

The farm houses in lower saxony are still very similar until today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German_house

17 hours ago, Stan` said:

What would be the advantage of a coop vs a corral ?

Long story short, historically corrals didn't exist, they lived together with their animals.

I didn't find this kind of living in any other culture, except maybe the vikings (who are also considered to be germans in the broadly sense). I think the Gauls didn't have these? Maybe someone has a better insight in other cultures? It could somehow distinguish the gauls from the germanic tribes, otherwise they'd be too similar

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Hey folks, so I was a bit erratic in my presence here because I'm juggling jobs and gigs. For the time being I'm not able to continue the suebians building set. However I hope that the blend file was clear enough for anyone to pick it up. If you have question, I can always answer.

I doubt that it's the first time that something like that happens, but hope to be able to come back.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/28/2021 at 9:11 AM, MrLux said:

Hey folks, so I was a bit erratic in my presence here because I'm juggling jobs and gigs. For the time being I'm not able to continue the suebians building set. However I hope that the blend file was clear enough for anyone to pick it up. If you have question, I can always answer.

I doubt that it's the first time that something like that happens, but hope to be able to come back.

Its structures are well developed and designed, I'm tempted to try to see them on 0ad, the cool thing about making the files available and that we can always count on the help of someone in the community.:D:hi:

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1. Comments on the actual models:

They look mostly great, congratulations to the artists (@Obskiuras and @MrLux). I would only like to say that the stone circle from the temple is using too much ground space (maybe it would be better to decorate it with those religious totems).  As for the civic center, I think it still looks small (specially when compared with the barracks). The entrance corridor also looks very long, almost like in the first model of the temple, maybe increasing the useful space of the CC might it make look slightly shorter). The covered entrance from the first model of the CC was nice too.

2. References for textures and (possible) wonder:

Here I share the references that I found.

'Alamannen museum' (museum of the 'Alamanni'; from a quick look on wikipedia, they also were included in the Suebian peoples, tho, it would be interesting if Merovingians are also going to be included in the Carolingians (or more like the Frankish Empire) as for recreating the iconic battle of Tolbiac).

I think this can be useful at least for developing realistic textures (and differentiating their architecture from the Gaulish one):

http://www.alamannen-museum.de/das-freigelaende.html

Particularly, if this could be possibly used as for the coloration / textures:

Panorama-Wohnstallhaus.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Panorama-Wohnstallhaus.jpg

more references on the 'Langhaus' (Long house(s)) and others related with the 'Steinzeit'  (Stone time (age)):

https://www.museum-quintana.de/content/?attachment_id=284

http://www.archaeopro.de/archaeopro/Strukturen/Langhaus1/Langhaus1-Rek.htm

https://www.ndr.de/ratgeber/reise/binnenland_elbe/Willkommen-in-der-Steinzeit,steinzeitpark125.html

https://www.steinzeitdorf-randau.de/

I was also thinking of using one of those Long houses from the artistic depictions shared by @nifa as their wonder, along with giving them those small storehouses (with a number limit and only after having built a big storehouse, I had this same idea for other 'barbarian' factions too; Iberians, Gauls, Britons and Lusitanians). And introducing another special building for the Suebians (I'm going to share information about it later).

3. General comments:

It also makes me wonder up to which point it is viable to include some factions for which it's almost impossible to even find reliable and detailed information about their leaders (like Batavians and Galatians). That not even considering having to differentiate each of them and providing them with different buildings / technologies / boats / wonders. Or if it's more realistic for their units and even some of their (few) leaders to be trained both in the Suebian and Gaulish fortresses (or special barracks), respectively.

On the other hand, Visigoths and Ostrogoths could be more easily splitted into two different factions (it's much easier to find more information about them, along with their architecture and unique characteristics). This also should be encouraged considering the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains, probably one of the most important battles in European history.

The other day and on another post I remember having read a comment about how the game 'already has 5 Athenian factions'. I think at least each of these 'Athenians' had much more cultural relevance, they left some relevant buildings behind (whose remains can still be found today) and they became famous because of something else that just one single battle that was noted by one historian.

It really makes me think which of those possible factions are really worth of the title 'Empire'. As in 'Empires Ascendant' :D.

Edited by Dasaavawar
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  • 1 month later...
On 14/08/2021 at 12:34 AM, Dasaavawar said:

1. Comments on the actual models:

They look mostly great, congratulations to the artists (@Obskiuras and @MrLux). I would only like to say that the stone circle from the temple is using too much ground space (maybe it would be better to decorate it with those religious totems).  As for the civic center, I think it still looks small (specially when compared with the barracks). The entrance corridor also looks very long, almost like in the first model of the temple, maybe increasing the useful space of the CC might it make look slightly shorter). The covered entrance from the first model of the CC was nice too.

2. References for textures and (possible) wonder:

Here I share the references that I found.

'Alamannen museum' (museum of the 'Alamanni'; from a quick look on wikipedia, they also were included in the Suebian peoples, tho, it would be interesting if Merovingians are also going to be included in the Carolingians (or more like the Frankish Empire) as for recreating the iconic battle of Tolbiac).

I think this can be useful at least for developing realistic textures (and differentiating their architecture from the Gaulish one):

http://www.alamannen-museum.de/das-freigelaende.html

Particularly, if this could be possibly used as for the coloration / textures:

Panorama-Wohnstallhaus.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Panorama-Wohnstallhaus.jpg

more references on the 'Langhaus' (Long house(s)) and others related with the 'Steinzeit'  (Stone time (age)):

https://www.museum-quintana.de/content/?attachment_id=284

http://www.archaeopro.de/archaeopro/Strukturen/Langhaus1/Langhaus1-Rek.htm

https://www.ndr.de/ratgeber/reise/binnenland_elbe/Willkommen-in-der-Steinzeit,steinzeitpark125.html

https://www.steinzeitdorf-randau.de/

I was also thinking of using one of those Long houses from the artistic depictions shared by @nifa as their wonder, along with giving them those small storehouses (with a number limit and only after having built a big storehouse, I had this same idea for other 'barbarian' factions too; Iberians, Gauls, Britons and Lusitanians). And introducing another special building for the Suebians (I'm going to share information about it later).

One issue i see with using the longhouse as wonder is that it might overlap with the CC and Great Hall buiilding.

I think the wonder could be a burial mound, although would be a bit of artistic license

From what i can find there are bronze/early iron age burial mounds in Germany but not built by Germanics (Tumulus, Urfnield, Hallstat cultures); there are also Germanic mounds but in Scandinavia and the majority is from the bronze age or the dark ages.

Other possible option could be the pillars of the Frisii (Early form of Irminsul?), although we don't really know how they looked like.

Quote

Towards the river are the Frisii, distinguished as the Greater and Lesser Frisii, according to their strength. Both these tribes, as far as the ocean, are skirted by the Rhine, and their territory also embraces vast lakes which Roman fleets have navigated. We have even ventured on the ocean itself in these parts. Pillars of Hercules, so rumour commonly says, still exist; whether Hercules really visited the country, or whether we have agreed to ascribe every work of grandeur, wherever met with, to his renown. . Drusus Germanicus indeed did not lack daring; but the ocean barred the explorer's access to itself and to Hercules. Subsequently no one has made the attempt, and it has been thought more pious and reverential to believe in the actions of the gods than to inquire.

 

Edited by Ultimate Aurelian
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Discarded possible wonders:

0.a. "Externsteine":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externsteine

The largest (sacred) rock formation in continental Europe. Although labeled as a sacred place for the (late coming) continental Saxons, and having inscriptions dating the X century, this place was known as a worship place for many Germanic tribes that preceded them. But considering the last choice of removing Stonehenge as a wonder for the Britons (and giving them a construction with a population bonus), then this option is unlikely. It's also too big as for being reduced it to the size of a wonder. But Externsteine along with a Black Forest (Schwarzwald), are must have maps for this faction. And it would be cool if Britons also would have a map with a real scale Stonehenge complex (whether possible to capture it or not as a wonder), along with other stone complexes like Bluehenge, Stanton Drew stone circles and even Drombeg stone circle.

0.b. "Irminsul":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irminsul

Again, it's more related with continental Saxons (whom don't fit the time frame). But I have to admit, it would fit perfectly as the wonder of the Germanic tribes in that area in Millennium AD. (A (continental) "Angles-Jutes-Saxons-Frisians" faction that could actually use Anglo-Saxons houses). In case the name is too long, they could be named "Frisian-Saxons" (or "Saxon-Frisians") (the two most relevant of those tribes, also the ones more famous for their wars with Franks). (Saxon wars, Frisian-Frankish wars).

And designing it would require artistic make up as well.

Maybe a large pillar like this:

irminsul-989ed5ea1e016d7a8e577af90d08ec8

Surrounded by smaller pillars like this one (and some trees):

Irminsul+alternate+german.jpg

 

 

Actual possible wonders:

1.a. "Alemannen Langhaus":

Since none of the current buildings actually represent Langhäuser of a larger size (although they were pretty common). (It could be nice to make at least the civic center as similar as possible to those houses, if this is not the final choice for the wonder). (Maybe make it even larger if possible, around the size of the Norse civic center).

langhaus.jpg

9352b659f7b1eea2a255f05798690606--cross-

Bajuwarenhof_Kirchheim_%C3%9Cbersicht_20

The term "Alemannen" wouldn't come as a reference to the museum of which I spoke before, but from the words that gave origin to their name "alle männer" ("all peoples"). (And Alemanni were also part of the Suebians, as stated in my previous comment). Maybe decorate it with some sacred poles and bulls and horses skulls?

1.b. ***** "Semnonenhain" (Semnones grove) (my personal favorite):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grove_of_Fetters

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semnonenhain

From a quick look on Wikipedia, Semnones were Suebians too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semnones

"The Semnones give themselves out to be the most ancient and renowned branch of the Suevi. Their antiquity is strongly attested by their religion. .... All this superstition implies the belief that from this spot the nation took its origin, that here dwells the supreme and all-ruling deity, to whom all else is subject and obedient. The fortunate lot of the Semnones strengthens this belief; a hundred cantons are in their occupation, and the vastness of their community makes them regard themselves as the head of the Suevic race."

A sacred grove (common among Germanic pagans). A wonder as large as possible (and probably without the population bonus*). And clearly, a less rectangular (more "randomly shaped, Brownian distributed") wonder, representing the inner altar surrounding a big tree in the forest (it would require artistic imagination as well). But we already have an artistic representation:

1024px-Semnonen_Hain_by_Emil_Doepler.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grove_of_Fetters#/media/File:Semnonen_Hain_by_Emil_Doepler.jpg

1.c. "Suebischen Ganggrab" (Suebian burial mound):

(I lack of information on this one, but it would indeed require a little of artistic inspiration). How to make that burial mound any different from the Xiongnu, Scythian and Illyrian burial mounds proposed as wonders for them too?

From a quick search online:

Denghood burial mound:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denghoog

Harhoog burial mound:

https://www.komoot.com/highlight/419436

(In case those aren't included as wonders, they could be modeled and added to the Suebian maps of which I spoke before).

 

 

Possible special buildings:

2.a. "Kreisgrabenanlage" ('circle', 'dig', 'enclosure'), (circular ditched enclosures):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_circular_enclosures_in_Central_Europe

Wooden circles (historically) used with cultic purposes. And "serving" the function of calendars. I have to admit the first time I saw these I thought they were used to train units. (So I thought of it as an special building where infantry units could upgrade their ranks, with some limitations for not OP this faction too much). But they could offer a health / temple bonus instead. And matter of fact, since these constructions are related with other Germanic and Slavic peoples, they could be a shared technology / special building. Whether for "Frisian-Saxons" and "Baltid-Slavs" in Millennium AD? (or it can be used as the Wonder for the Suebians...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goseck_circle

This simply looks gorgeous and seems to fit so naturally for Suebians:

800px-Rekonstruierte_Kreisgrabenanlage2.

2.b. "Batavische Kaserne" (Batavian Barracks):

In case there is going to be an special technology (or building) to unlock Batavians as special champions (both infantry and cavalry). (Yes, Suebians are going to be a very infantry focused faction). Maybe another Langhaus with a different style. What about using a Treveri Langhaus? (just as a variation). (Despite of being a Celtic tribe, they were closely related and placed to Germanic peoples).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treveri

Treveri Langhaus:

Bund-ro-altburg.jpg

 

I'm really excited to see the complete development of this and many other factions in the game :)

Edited by Dasaavawar
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On 06/04/2021 at 11:12 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Heroes? Need at least 3, up to 5.

Who else? 

for Batavians:

Gaius Julius Civilis: was the leader of the Batavian rebellion against the Romans in 69 AD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Julius_Civilis

for Alemanni*:

Gibuld: the last known king of the Alamanni before the defeat of the Alamanni at the battle of Tolbiac in 496.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibuld

***

"Walafrid Strabo in the 9th century remarked, in discussing the people of Switzerland and the surrounding regions, that only foreigners called them the Alemanni, but that they gave themselves the name of Suebi."

* from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemanni

 

 

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47 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

German and Celtic civs' bonus? The ability to turn a Grove into a Temple? So, a choice between gathering the wood or converting it into a temple that heals and trains priests, just like a regular Temple.

The idea could be innovative but I would like to point out some minor issues:

- Firstly, sacred groves are common among multiple cultures, including the Romans and the Greeks. It can be garden like  or wild like area. A Greek temple requires a Temenos and it is simply an area dedicated to the gods, it can be constructed or natural. Plato teach to his students in the public garden of Athens which is a sacred grove. Philip V attacked Pergamon and ordered his men to cut down the trees in the sanctuary of Athena Nikephoros to humiliate the city and proving they lost the protection of the gods. The Romans have the concept of Lucus and it was common in any area of the Roman republic or of the Roman empire, it is also a sacred grove, generally like a garden or a field. It can be pretty large like the Lucus of Lacinian Juno, enclosed by dense woods and with pastures inside. Apollo was revered as the god of woodlands at Kourion (Chypre) and the accounts from the Roman empire era suggest that the sacred grove dedicated to the god was filled with wild-animals.

- Secondly, I think it could further deceive people in making them believing the 'barbarians' were following a naturalistic or primitive religion, without constructed temples or shrines. It depends how you would portray the sacred grove and if the civs can still build proper temples.

- Thirdly, the archaeological record is pretty thin on the matter of sacred grove. The evidences are mostly related to locations and places where there is water. A bog, a river, a lake, a well etc. We know that water is particularly important for domestic religion too during the iron age.

 

Edited by Genava55
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6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I mean, it's just an abstraction. Feels better than the constant suggestion that the Celts and Germans "build" a temple that's a bunch of trees. :shrug:

Well, it is unlikely that a sacred grove would be simply a bunch of trees. More probably there were clearings, enclosed area, altars etc. In some cases, the sacred grove are gathering places, able to hold at least 1000 persons. You wouldn't be able to hold a council of 1000 persons in a natural forest. A real natural forest is much different than from the modern perspective, with a lot of felled trees on the ground. There must have been some layouts.

I am not against the inclusion of sacred groves, I simply want to highlight the misconceptions linked to them. 

 

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