Civ: Germans (Cimbri, Suebians, Goths)

[Lion.Kanzen]

40 minutes ago, Obskiuras said:

Militar colony or fortress?

Fortress.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Colony towers tend to be smaller and look like a small CC mix with a barrack.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I don't plan on having military colonies for the Germans. Just the basic buildings.

[Genava55]

https://www.academia.edu/37321372/IN_TEMPORE_SUEBORUM_El_tiempo_de_los_Suevos_en_la_Gallaecia_411_585_Catálogo_de_Exposición_Español_

The Suevi in Galicia, Spain

[Ultimate Aurelian]

On 20/08/2019 at 8:06 AM, Genava55 said:

These are auxiliaries (scene 36):

  Hide contents

 

Those helmets are interesting, they remind me of the banded helmets worn by Germanics later in migration period.

Perhaos those were influenced by Roman helmets, or the Auxilia in the picture are using an earlier Germanic helmet?

[Genava55]

50 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Those helmets are interesting, they remind me of the banded helmets worn by Germanics later in migration period.

Perhaos those were influenced by Roman helmets, or the Auxilia in the picture are using an earlier Germanic helmet?

The actual consensus is that the migration period helmets come from the Sassanian/Parthian helmets. This is the origin of the so-called Spangenhelm and Roman ridge helmets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spangenhelm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamellar_helmet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Roman_ridge_helmet

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1058733865261502465.html

But it is plausible the Germanic auxiliaries at this time got their helmets from the Sarmatians or the Dacians. Which would be an earlier version of the segmented helmets. A different branch. Those are nicknamed "skeleton helmets" although this is not a suitable name from a typological pov.

Some people think it is related to the Samartian find from Stanica Tbilisskaya:

 

And it is indeed true that later Germans used such design for their helmets.

Here is Thorsberg helmet:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorsberger_Moor

 

And here is Benty Grange helmet:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_helmet

 

Valsgarde 6 helmet (burial N°6):

Valsgarde 5 helmet (burial N°5):

Edited October 18, 2022 by Genava55

[Genava55]

Finds from Großromstedt

https://archive.org/details/eichhorn-1927-grossromstedt

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I appreciate the images of charcoal.  

[Genava55]

3 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I appreciate the images of charcoal.  

The black and white drawings are indeed more useful but at least it gives a better idea of the perspective

[Lion.Kanzen]

15 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

The black and white drawings are indeed more useful but at least it gives a better idea of the perspective

It is always useful to be able to see the textures.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

5 hours ago, Genava55 said:

 

But it is plausible the Germanic auxiliaries at this time got their helmets from the Sarmatians or the Dacians

It seems a lot of Germanic armor was actually made by Celts and Romans (And acquired through trade or looting); it makes sense they would do a similar thing with their other neighbours.

Some years before the Dacian wars; Pannonia was invaded by an alliance of Dacians, Suebians and Sarmatians.

It is likely there was some degree of trade and cultural exchange between Germanics and those groups.

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

It seems a lot of Germanic armor was actually made by Celts and Romans (And acquired through trade or looting); it makes sense they would do a similar thing with their other neighbours.

Some years before the Dacian wars; Pannonia was invaded by an alliance of Dacians, Suebians and Sarmatians.

It is likely there was some degree of trade and cultural exchange between Germanics and those groups.

 

I have seen that they are all Celtic helmets similar to the Roman coolus imperial.

 

 

Coolus type C.

[Lion.Kanzen]

which shield is this, guys?

[Lion.Kanzen]

[Lion.Kanzen]

Edited October 19, 2022 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

[Ultimate Aurelian]

2 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

which shield is this, guys?

Apparently it is a type of shield associated with the Visigoths

But there is not really hard evidence for it, and it might just be an incorrect depiction of an hexagonal shield.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=185238

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13673

https://balagan.info/gothic-shield-shapes-there-is-no-such-thing-as-a-gothic-coffin-shield

[Genava55]

3 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I have seen that they are all Celtic helmets similar to the Roman coolus imperial.

The Roman Coolus is a bronze helmet. Some of them belong to Imperial Italic serie.

https://www.res-bellica.com/en/tag-prodotto/coolus-en/

The evolution is probably from the late Montefortino

Montefortino => Buggenum => Coolus type C

Maybe there is a bit of influence from the Coolus-Mannheim which is Celtic (and in bronze). But I think the Buggenum is a better explanation.

 

3 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Coolus type C.

This is a Port helmet. This is the ancestor of the Imperial Gallic, not of the Coolus.

[Genava55]

6 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

It seems a lot of Germanic armor was actually made by Celts and Romans (And acquired through trade or looting); it makes sense they would do a similar thing with their other neighbours.

Weapons could have also been political gifts or earned from any experience as mercenaries or auxiliaries.

There are some Celtic helmets found in a Germanic context but from the Przeworsk culture (related to the Lugii and the Vandals).

For the Suebi, I really think it should be coherent with the description from Tacitus:

Quote

Even iron is not plentiful; this has been inferred from the sort of weapons they have. Only a few of them use swords or large lances: they carry spears - called frameae in their language - with short and narrow blades, but so sharp and easy to handle that they can be used, as required, either at close quarters or in long-range fighting. Their horsemen are content with a shield and a spear; but the foot-soldiers also rain javelins on their foes: each of them carries several, and they hurl them to immense distances, being naked or lightly clad in short cloaks. There is nothing ostentatious about their equipment: only their shields are picked out in the colours of their choice. Few have breastplates, and only one here and there a helmet of metal or hide. Their horses are not remarkable for either beauty or speed, and are not trained to execute various evolutions as ours are; they ride them straight ahead, or with just a single wheel to the right, keeping their line so well that not a man falls behind the rest. Generally speaking, their strength lies in infantry rather than cavalry. So foot-soldiers accompany the cavalry into action, their speed of foot being such that they can easily keep up with the charging horsemen. The best men are chosen from the whole body of young warriors and placed with the cavalry in front of the main battle line. The number of these. is precisely fixed: a hundred are drawn from each district, and 'The Hundred' is the name they bear among their fellow-countrymen. Thus what was originally a mere number has come to be a title of distinction. The battle-line is made up of wedge-shaped formations. To give ground, provided that you return to the attack, is considered good tactics rather than cowardice. They bring back the bodies of the fallen even when a battle hangs in the balance. To throw away one's shield is the supreme disgrace, and the man who has thus dishonoured himself is debarred from attendance at sacrifice or assembly. Many such survivors from the battlefield have ended their shame by hanging themselves.

It is only an issue due to a lack of guidelines to represent the gain in experience. The current approach is based on Mediterranean civs in vanilla 0AD which is inappropriate for "barbarians".

Anyway, if you want a list of the helmets you could use for the Suebians:

1. Gelduba helmet with the feathers
2. Wooden helmets from Denmark
3. A sort of helmet made from hide as mentioned by Tacitus
4. Coolus-Mannheim helmets are esthetically suited (although a real evidence would have been better, it is plausible)
5. Modified Roman helmets for veterans and ancient auxiliaries
6. The eagle helmet from the Portonaccio Sarcophagus
7. The Stanica Tbilisskaya / skeleton helmet.

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Genava55

[Ultimate Aurelian]

It's interesting that he says helmets were even rarer than armor.

In most ancient armies it was the opposite; the helmet was the priority and anyone with a breasplate usually could afford one as well.

They did remove the cheekguards from imported helmets (Making them lighter in exchange for less protection).

So possibly there were a few who could afford helmets, but did not bother with them because they thought they were too cumbersome.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Duileoga]

Buenos días o tardes;

-¿Dónde se puede descargar la facción en solitario, ella sola , no todo el Delenda est ?

@Ultimate Aurelian @wowgetoffyourcellphone @Genava55

 

 

Disculpen las molestias*

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Duileoga said:

Buenos días o tardes;

-¿Dónde se puede descargar la facción en solitario, ella sola , no todo el Delenda est ?

@Ultimate Aurelian @wowgetoffyourcellphone @Genava55

 

 

Disculpen las molestias*

It's only a part of Delenda Est (and now in Terra Magna's repo as well).

[Ultimate Aurelian]

It seems they currently don't have a catafalque hero

There is not really an more archaic Suebian figure (No historical record before the Gallic Wars)

Maybe could use mythical heroes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuisto

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannus

Or just a minor hero who is not currently featured.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganna_(seeress)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masyas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariogaesus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vannius

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catualda

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibilius

Potentially one of these could replace Arminius as the fourth hero since he was not Suebian.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Potentially one of these could replace Arminius as the fourth hero since he was not Suebian.

DE classes Arminius as a mercenary hero, unique among all of the mod's heroes this way.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganna_(seeress)

This one is unique, I think.