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Missile Dodging / Dancing


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My micro is pretty good and I've been using missile dodging to win quite a lot of my games - certainly I feel a lot safer scouting with cavalry knowing that they are relatively safe if I'm paying attention. A few people so far have called me out for doing this saying I'm exploiting a 'bug'. Is this true or is this an intended mechanic? (I kinda like it)

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The problem is that a mass of ranged units automatically target the nearest enemy unit, while they should be spreading fire across the entire group of enemy units within range. So it can indeed be considered a bug i.m.o. There are many of those micro-bugs though, and all of them are regularly exploited, so it's not like you're the only one doing it. It's even ill-advised not to take these things into account in a competitive game (why wouldn't you dodge a missile if you can?). 

Edited by Sundiata
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Well, I personally think it's a bug, because it's not a natural movement for an elephant or a cavarly unit. Anyway, I think it shouldn't be considered a bug if the dancer unit is a infantry one. Also, if you like, you can use a surely "not bug" strat that is really similar: just put the hero in passive mod and run with him near to the enemy ranged unit (not dancing, just running): this will slow them a lot and it can't be considered a bug, because it's a natural cavarly move

Edited by Jofursloft
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First walls, and then this?

I may be getting a little paranoid, but if the common act of microing units that has been a staple of good age of empires players for years and years is now causing people to be called out as cheaters? Players who are getting beat by a seasoned pro will call anything cheating nowdays (except the wall exploit, that is kind of broken and unbeatable). If your opponent is dancing his units around then guess what, it means he is not paying attention to the rest of the battlefield, good microing does have a large weakness, in that it forces you to pay attention to one part of the map while you micro. If microing is called cheating then what is the point of skirmisher units? Although I am against "banning" this like was done to walls, I do have to agree that the unit ai should be improved so that the units are not total idiots.

 

Sorry, but just do not want to have to live by 50 unwritten rules that are almost impossible to not accidentally do every time I play multiplayer.

Edited by Imperator Ferrum Princeps I
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It became  a staple because AoE didn’t take adequate measures to fix it. Theres good micro and theres bad micro. Flanking your opponent or a moving a single unit in a nonsensical way. The distinction is clear. And you are missing a very important point. Most players who do this don’t even need to look at the battlefield to win it. 1.Select a cavalry, 2.set two close patrol points 3.? 4.profit. Or just shift click about 20 times.

An example to highlight the magnitude of this;

A single horse “dancing” can avoid all shots from a hundred skirmishers if done right. Seems like broken to me.

I doubt fixing it would be easy. Realism and gameplay needs to be taken into account too.

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It is quite easy to counter a single 'dancing' unit by manually giving targets for your units though - basically by microing yourself. If this 'bug' is changed at some point, I think an interesting element to the game will be lost.

Talking about realism: what about a formation of cavalry juking arrows at long range? That seems more than historically plausible, especially for lighter skirmisher cavalry.

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9 hours ago, Imperator Ferrum Princeps I said:

First walls, and then this?

I may be getting a little paranoid, but if the common act of microing units that has been a staple of good age of empires players for years and years is now causing people to be called out as cheaters? Players who are getting beat by a seasoned pro will call anything cheating nowdays (except the wall exploit, that is kind of broken and unbeatable). If your opponent is dancing his units around then guess what, it means he is not paying attention to the rest of the battlefield, good microing does have a large weakness, in that it forces you to pay attention to one part of the map while you micro. If microing is called cheating then what is the point of skirmisher units? Although I am against "banning" this like was done to walls, I do have to agree that the unit ai should be improved so that the units are not total idiots.

 

Sorry, but just do not want to have to live by 50 unwritten rules that are almost impossible to not accidentally do every time I play multiplayer.

whats the wall exploit about?

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12 hours ago, Imperator Ferrum Princeps I said:

If your opponent is dancing his units around then guess what, it means he is not paying attention to the rest of the battlefield, good microing does have a large weakness, in that it forces you to pay attention to one part of the map while you micro. If microing is called cheating then what is the point of skirmisher units? Although I am against "banning" this like was done to walls, I do have to agree that the unit ai should be improved so that the units are not total idiots.

I'm totally against the people who say that micro is cheating. As @(-_-) said, I personally think that 0ad has to fix some unnatural moves, like horse and elephant dancers ones, or that a single unit can dodge 100+ shots. Anyway, I think that the movements of a infantry hero are more natural (a man is able to move himself really fast to dodge some shots). 

But I think that many player confuse the word "Dancing" and the word "Micro": dancing is just use (as I said before) innatural moves of a unit with no effort, just clicking the patrol control. The good micro is when you pay attention (obv when you have a quite low number of units) to the single units that are rushing or attacking and you move the attacked ones, to save them and make the enemy lose shots against them (not dancing, just moving): this is a very complicated tactic and players that use it are just very good in the game. If you are moving large masses of units, instead, on the battlefield you can use the tactic I already talked about with more units, or use the hero to run near the enemy units, making them missing shots (but the hero will die if he continues too much)

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Thorky used this tactic on me but I don’t mind because this has been used from since couple of alphas already and the devs are either can’t fix or think that this feature is fine. 

Imo it’s not really good for the game as in MP will keep the gaps between players skills more wider in favor of the micro quick ones and the competitive essence might erode. To me this feature is an annoyance that could add to the reasons why players could dislike the MP games.

 

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One thing you could do, which could apply to combat for all units, is to make a new control for units, such that they have a 'preferred target type'. So select a unit. Click a little icon, similar to the coins for the trade icon. A dialog pops up, with 5 radio buttons:

()swordsman

()spearmen

()archers

()cavalry

()siege

 

If more than one unit is in attack range of the unit, then the closest unit of the preferred type is attacked. So for example, you could set your spearmen to preferentially attack cavalry in range, etc

 

Edited by Ulfilas
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On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 8:50 AM, Servo said:

Thorky used this tactic on me but I don’t mind because this has been used from since couple of alphas already and the devs are either can’t fix or think that this feature is fine. 

Imo it’s not really good for the game as in MP will keep the gaps between players skills more wider in favor of the micro quick ones and the competitive essence might erode. To me this feature is an annoyance that could add to the reasons why players could dislike the MP games.

 

Removing micro in the multiplayer so skilled players cannot defeat unskilled players as easily? Skill gap in multiplayer being bad for the game?

What!?

I do not think you get the point of multiplayer games...

Removing a feature because it is used by skilled players to defeat less skilled players so everyone would be the same skill level is...

I have no words, I am speechless.

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Who is talking about removing micro?

We are talking about removing a two click unit motion exploit.

Also, since when is APM the de facto measure of skill in an RTS game? I would much rather see micro such as flanking, taking high ground etc be rewarded more than clicking like a madman. And I used to abuse all such things back then when I still played rated games. Dancing, layering, path blocking, whatnot. So this is coming from someone who have seen both sides.

Edited by Guest
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5 hours ago, (-_-) said:

Who is talking about removing micro?

We are talking about removing a two click unit motion exploit.

Also, since when is APM the de facto measure of skill in an RTS game? I would much rather see micro such as flanking, taking high ground etc be rewarded more than clicking like a madman. And I used to abuse all such things back then when I still played rated games. Dancing, layering, path blocking, whatnot. So this is coming from someone who have seen both sides.

+1

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On 10/18/2018 at 4:33 AM, Imperator Ferrum Princeps I said:

Removing micro in the multiplayer so skilled players cannot defeat unskilled players as easily? Skill gap in multiplayer being bad for the game?

What!?

I do not think you get the point of multiplayer games...

Removing a feature because it is used by skilled players to defeat less skilled players so everyone would be the same skill level is...

I have no words, I am speechless.

lol

So you're saying the only option to win as a  seasoned player in this tech demo is by shift-click dancing around enemy archer fomations? And that's why something like this is necessary for the game's multiplayer?

 

What a nonsense.. oh wait I just found accurate video footage of ancient combat in which the champion manages to dogdge enemy missiles easily. So probably this is authentic realistic combat simulation at that point to ddoge hundred of spears and arrows.

 

Edited by DarcReaver
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This bug exist because 0ad doesn't take into account the units momentum, light units should have more maneuverability and  heavy ones lower. Knowing that, I don't know any RTS that takes army or units momentum to the mechanics of the game, would look cool and also realistic but the implementation would be not straightforward.

 

 

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Maybe it’s not about the implementation. But rather the cost of it. I highly expect something like that to slow down the game significantly.

I guess it is not worth making it that realistic while a close enough thing could simulate it more efficiently. Something like unit’s mass increasing or decreasing turn speed and acceleration (there is a patch for accelaration IIRC). Might work well enough for a game even though it doesn’t honor all the laws of physics.

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3 hours ago, DarcReaver said:

What a nonsense.. oh wait I just found accurate video footage of ancient combat in which the champion manages to dogdge enemy missiles easily. So probably this is authentic realistic combat simulation at that point to ddoge hundred of spears and arrows.

What I think in fact is that for a infantry hero / normal unit is normal to dodge some shots (obv not like 100+) moving really fast: what is unrealistic is a cavarly unit that does the same

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9 minutes ago, Jofursloft said:

What I think in fact is that for a infantry hero / normal unit is normal to dodge some shots (obv not like 100+) moving really fast: what is unrealistic is a cavarly unit that does the same

b1f.gif

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