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[Gameplay] Alpha 18 Balance Feedback


scythetwirler
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This some related because the play of alpha 16 and 17 was similar but alpha 18 not, is more like a kind of total war the units are very resistant to die, and I like this feel, in a15 the hard counters were very similar to EE I the counter don't have feel the battle, so this can tend to feel repetitive battles without much micro and tactic only rock, paper and scissors gameplay.

There was a big difference between a16 and a17.

Average game time in a16 was around 30-40 minutes, with some rushers winning in under 10 minutes. Some games were ended early by skirm cav rushes, while others went on for an hour and became gridlocked by forts. I really liked the balance between rushing and booming in a16. The skirm cav rush became pretty popular near the end, but I never had any problems countering it by being careful.

Average game time in a17 was less than 15 minutes, with long games being 25 minutes. You could kill a CC with maybe 20-30 troops, so there was no reason to hit age 3. The popular tactic was to do a population boom until around 10-12 minutes, start age 2 upgrade, and then send your entire 110ish man army over to attack. You would hopefully hit age 2 right as your troops entered the enemy town, which gave them a 20% boost.

Average game time in a18 seems well over 35 minutes, with short games being around 25 minutes. A normal game seems around 45 minutes. The CC is tough to kill, and even stronger players have to hit age 3 to get siege equipment to finish off weaker players. It could take 100 citizen troops at age 2 in a frontal assault to kill a CC even against a newer player. I did manage to defeat an experienced player once by rushing cav archers, but it still took 20+ minutes to frustrate him enough before he quit. I like the strong CC, but having the other buildings be weaker would help with rushing, and might cut down on game time.

Maybe the skirm cav dynamics could be changed? I like them having low health and armor, but they should be the kind of unit that would charge in, chuck one javelin, and then run away. Maybe they could having something like 50+ pierce and 15+ crush attack, but only at one attack every 3-4 seconds? That could reward players who micromange. If you left the horses standing there, they would get killed pretty easily. Skirm cav shouldn't be able to stand on the front lines and fight like they could in a16. It would also be cool if you could use them to kill buildings like storehouses.

As far as game time goes, I think a16 had the right balance. Strong players could finish weaker ones off within 10 minutes, but a game between two even opponents could last for an hour. So if you play for 3 hours one night, you spend most of your time in a fun battle against evenly matched opponents.

Edited by KingAJ
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Analyzing AoM the units have same behavior similar to 0AD I think focus in that gameplay can be great, like 0 AD their slingers are good against buildings,mother units have great armor and can survive even if are trying to flee by a counter unit. The archers are support units, use them in mass have great effect over units and buildings.

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Discussing similar game and how can be applicable to 0 A.D. is perfectly on topic.

Absolutely not. The topic is:

Alpha 18 Balance Feedback

...not that a game needs a vision, not comparing similar games, not Lions google_translated blahblah the forum gets spammed with all day long.

But sigh, welcome on my ignore list ;) ..

Edited by zzippy
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I think rams are over powered and I don't understand why thy can't be beaten with all melee troops. It does not make sense that you need a sword to bring them down. You can bring down a whole city with towers an castles with a few rams and some supporting units if your opponent doesn't have any strong swordsmen.

The most promising strategy to counter rams and catapults seem to be using rams too. So you have rams against rams and rams against catapults. That's absurd in my opinion.

(By the way, but off topic: since v17 everything depends on wood, that's no improvement in my opinion. In v16 it was up to your strategy, your civ and the phase of the game whether wood or malt where more important)

Edited by gunwald
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Absolutely not. The topic is:

Alpha 18 Balance Feedback

...not that a game needs a vision, not comparing similar games, not Lions google_translated blahblah the forum gets spammed with all day long.

But sigh, welcome on my ignore list ;) ..

Hello zzzippy, always cheerful i find you ;):) (its dmc btw)

yeah this game isnt too balanced i dont think. I mean i was used to 15 or 16. But i liked that the matches would end quicker. Now it takes really long to destroy cc's and the likes, and the problem is that some players dont enjoy spending 1 hour or so on every match...granted some matches are fun for an hour, but if all of the are like that then it can get very boring.. I've heard similar things from other players too who are at uni or career, where at this point we enjoy playing a quick round or two rather than not bring a game to conclusion within an hour..

most players cement themselves down with tons of forts and towers, making the gameplay unbearably long...perpetually long...

also i completely agree with KingAJ

Edited by ba7rain
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Absolutely not. The topic is:

Alpha 18 Balance Feedback

...not that a game needs a vision, not comparing similar games, not Lions google_translated blahblah the forum gets spammed with all day long.

But sigh, welcome on my ignore list ;) ..

What a hypocrite. The topic was already back to exactly where you wanted it...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Now with capture system, everyone can have one. So for me is not OP

I dont know about you, but online we havent seen any capture mechanism?? one what?

And Yodda warrior why they are OP?

man their armour and crush is insane..a team of 20 sneaking into your base from whatever side no matter how many towers you have destroy CC in no time at all... its just its not proportionate...

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man their armour and crush is insane..a team of 20 sneaking into your base from whatever side no matter how many towers you have destroy CC in no time at all... its just its not proportionate...

Because they are mainly siege unit(Mauryans haven't siege engines), obviously you can't use defense building against them, you need use other units to try to counter.

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Because they are mainly siege unit(Mauryans haven't siege engines), obviously you can't use defense building against them, you need use other units to try to counter.

I think out perspectives clash because i base my opinions on online play, with certain people who have been with this game since alpha 15. Do you play online Lion?

Edited by ba7rain
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I had the same with the yodda's: 20 men taking down 3 iberians towers and 2 fortressen all fully garrissoned. The finally died when they attacked a wall and I shot them down with skirmisers. I have not recorded it.

Edited by bouke
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Their crush damage are too high and their pierce defense are two high.

I did tests with Mario, first we used Mauryan champions against 4 fortress and a CC and towers full with units, and some ground units, and then we used rams (same amount of metal for the tests) I can tell you that Mauryan champions are really OP, He destroyed a few towers, a fort and the CC with the Mauryan, but only tower with the rams.

Also ba7brain isn't the first one to say it, it has been on scythe list from the first message of this topic.

Alex

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Lion, you say that stonethrowers aren't OP cause in the new alpha you will be able to capture them, a thing that isn't tested online by the major community, and later you ask for proofs regarding mauryans macemans. Isn't contradictory? BTW mauryans have elephants too, that can deal a nice siege damage.

As I said some time before, I don't like rams right now (I know that the high damage against units it's for pathfinding purpouses). But today I found a very good counter: women! They are better than spearmen to destroy them. Just pointing out, I don't have a opinion against or in support.

Edited by av93
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Are you playing the svn version? Is very easy capture a ballista and use against their creators But that are other matter.

With maceman I had my doubts because he say the towers and castle can't take down these units, he don't mentioned other units like swordsman or melee, but Alekusu confirms the highly armor makes this units insuperable by others, so he is right, but he presents the evidence.

For me that sounds like pikeman are OP because kill instantly cavalry. That is not a argument

With rams there are not problem( actually in svn version) capture but they wouldn't attack units.

Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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