Quick Realism Suggestion!

[DMDonahue]

(Sorry if this is a duplicate, couldn't find anything else like it)

So do you guys know how some units have both melee and ranged weapons? (Will use the Persian "Immortals" champion as reference)

How about the ability to use not only ranged or only melee, but based on the concept and historical references able to use both melee and bows, such as spears for CQC and a bow for those further away enemies.

Or like how the Spartan hoplites have both a spear and sword, maybe able to designate which to use against said enemy (Hold Shift + Left Click would use sword, whilst normally tapping left mouse button would allow them to use the standard spear)

Also, a big deal (For me at least) is that the Mauryan civilization have not only the melee Maiden Guard, but also ranged Maiden Guard, it would save quite a bit of space (Population Cap) to just throw a bow on their backs and let you shift click to use it, no?

Also, historically, archers carried some type of sidearm, such as a sword or dagger.

This is mainly just a preference issue, please leave some feedback for me!

Edited November 1, 2014 by DMDonahue

[iNcog]

This was actually done in Age of Empires 3, where ranged units in melee range would hit things with their weapons instead of shooting them.

Musketeers had muskets with bayonets on them, so they did quite well in melee. In the other hand, skirmishers armed with rifles were forced to hit things with their rifles when caught in melee, which was obviously ineffective.

It was not only cute, but it was also realistic and it balanced out ranged units caught in melee fights.

I mentioned this before in another thread, however I'll say it again. All infantry and cavalry units which were attacking buildings did so by torching the building, NOT by using their weapon. This was also more realistic and it looked better. Even melee units had a ranged attack for siege which was simulated by throwing the torch. Very nice overall.

If these kinds of animations could be included in 0 AD, I would love it. It should be doable without too much technical difficulties as far as I know, however it would represent some tedious work. So I agree with you,DMDonahue. However, that is one task that needs to be looked among many, many more.

Edited November 1, 2014 by iNcog

[wolflance]

I think this was discussed in Prodigal Son's thread sometime before. Personally I am fine with it if I don't need to trigger weapon-switch manually.

[iNcog]

it should definitely be done automatically!

[Stan`]

Thing is. What most of you don't seem to realise is that it needs coding :

The Unit needs to know when the enemi is close and therefore calculate it's distance. It could be modelised by a circle around it. Problem is this a bit related to pathfinding...

Also, that means that every single unit file must be edited in order to allow this.

Finally, that also means with the new units mesh, that every kind of units needs its anim. So if this a slinger, I'm not sure he would carry a sword, mostly fight with his fists or use a knife, both are anims that aren't natively in the game. But I hope the art side will get new elements that will save poor Enrique from doing everything.

Just so you know an anim, can be hours of work.

Edited November 1, 2014 by stanislas69

[iNcog]

I'm aware that pretty much everything needs hours of coding behind. There's no pressure really, we're all just day-dreaming a bit.

[Stan`]

It's was mostly the possible to add to the game that I highly doubt of ^^ maybe replace it by something way more hypothetic

[LordIgorIIIofKiev]

If you are going to add the switching between melee and ranged for let's say the ranged units would be nice if units raised their shield when not in ranged for a melee attack

[dvangennip]

It can be done, but I'm not sure the added complexity is worth the confusion. You choose archers to have ranged troops, and swordsmen to have melee troops. Letting archers do both means the choice you have to make is less pronounced. I would argue against this idea, except maybe for some hero/champion units, as it negatively impacts the role of your strategic decisions. If you want archers, you have to choose and accept the negatives (no melee) along with the positives (ranged attack). My view is that this double attack-type idea doesn't aid the game.

However technically, it can be done and the elements for that are partially in place. The animation part wouldn't be hard. A swordsman uses the same body and can use the animations as an archer to perform a bow and arrow animation. Given that both animations are necessary and available anyway, there is no additional animating necessary to let a swordsman use a ranged attack animation. The actor file readily supports this, including overwriting props to go along with that animation. So an archer can hold a bow in rest and its attack_ranged animation, and props can be reassigned for a attack_melee animation. In fact, this can be used now to give an archer a dagger to use for an attack_slaughter animation when dealing with domestic animals. In other words, the animation system supports different attack animations depening on what the UnitAI code requests (I was involved in the patch for that two years ago).

There is some rudimentary support in the UnitAI code for choosing between different attack types. Domestic animals will always be attacked with a one-hit-kill Slaughter attack (which was implemented to ease the use of animals as a food source). I believe there is some code in place that tries to pick the optimal attack type to use if both melee and ranged are available. I think it takes the strongest of the two for a chosen opponent and just goes with that. Assuming archers do more damage as archers than by using their sword, the game will simply always use the ranged attack. If an opponent is too close for that to work (there's a minimum distance), the archer will move away and try again.

Changing unit behaviour to favour a melee attack when too close for a ranged attack (instead of walking to increase distance beyond the minimum required), probably means your ranged unit is going to behave much like a melee unit, especially if enemy troops advance and close the distance (which is what any opposing melee unit does). Archers typically have weaker armor, so staying as far away as possible is a better alternative. Going by the numbers that's simply the best thing to do, and the UnitAI does so accordingly. I guess that realistically no archer would use a sword or dagger as long as the bow can be used. Only if it broke or he/she ran out of arrows it makes sense, but that doesn't apply in this game.

Use torches for attacks against structures might be a nice idea, but I'm not sure if units will be changed to capture instead of destroy structures in the future.

Edited November 2, 2014 by dvangennip

[Stan`]

Seeing in what direction the balancing changes went (i ´m thinking of the fact there are no more hard counters) and provided that we now have units on walls I would not be surprised to see that come into play. Also It could just be the archer trying to defend himself with an arrow or a bow That would be a bit more realistic provided that the switch to melee range would be small. Also maybe for mods (that would add too much micro) implementing a arrow count would be nice too.

Edited November 2, 2014 by stanislas69

[DMDonahue]

As @dvangennip already mentioned, each unit already has a specific attack cue for animals and the such, after seeing this I just thought it was a bit odd archers and javelin units were so worthless in close combat, archers would obviously be on the weaker side, but javelin units? I mean, javelins are sharp whether thrown or stabbed. For slingers, not to sure actually, I mean they could actually use their sling as an actual weapon, or pull a knife.

For melee units, not many carried both (Blade and Bow) but many shield-bearers and spear units had a secondary sword for when the threw their spear, or after first push (After opposing side already ran or rammed into them.)

I just really liked the recent balancing update (Mauryans on walls with bows is totally not op at all >.>) but why not take it one step further?

Also @stanislas69 we do know that animations would be a lot of work, but realistically, they could just recycle them between units. As in as archers switch to melee to kill animals, the melee units could use the second half of that animation (When they sheathe the dagger and reequip bow)

Also about units torching buildings and capturing them, much like what I was thinking (Shift clicking to use melee and vice versa) could be done there.

[wolflance]

The game have a 'skirmish formation' to enforce the 'keeping distance' behavior, so I suppose other formation(s) could be made to enforce the "switching weapon when enemy too close" behavior.

[iNcog]

@dvangennip

No you don't get it, the idea behind ranged units using a melee attack is that when ranged units are in melee, they're terrible. The idea is that a ranged unit which is at range is doing great. It deals damage without putting itself in harms way. However, when that unit is caught in a melee fight, it doesn't use its ranged attack anymore (since units attack the closest unit to themselves unless they're ordered to do otherwise, afaik). Instead, it uses its much weaker melee attack. This detail means that players have to pay attention to keep their ranged units out of harm's way while looking for opportunities to engage ranged units in melee fights. It serves as a way to reward proper positional play. Age of Empires 3 pulled this off quite well, then again melee units weren't the strongest in the game, unless we're talking about heavy cavalry. Aoe3 was primarily dominated by ranged units anyway (which is historically accurate anyway).

http://i.imgur.com/jb7oMHV.png

Of course, you can do the same thing by playing on hack armor and hitpoints. The whole idea behind playing with animations is to make the game more immersive / cute / realistic, however as it's been said before, it's not a priority, merely wishful thinking. I don't think it should be technically hard to implement, it would however represent a large volume of work.

[rolf.sievers]

Battle Realms (2001) had this feature as well. You could attack the opponents ranged units and force them into mêlée. Here a “Master Warlock” is forced to use his claws to defend against two “Kabuki Warriors”.

I did love that feature as well, adding not only realism (to a world of flying skeleton mages and werewolves) but also the option to catch unguarded ranged units. (The are even forced to engage in melee, you can't just shoot a different enemy while someone is hacking at you with a sword.)

Edit: However, it is a feature that may require more micro than 0ad aims for. For reference: 30 Units per player is the default pop. cap. in Battle Realms, it can be turned up to 40 pop. cap. for larger matches.

Edited November 2, 2014 by rolf.sievers

[Stan`]

Okay I need to explain it further then. We currently have no way to export/edit old anims. So everything will have to be remade from scratch. And it will eventually for the new unit meshes, however, for now, we don't have much anims. I think there is three (The showcase units on SVN are animated (IdleOnly))

[Yrgael]

Spartans fought with their spears. They did not throw them except at very short range.

Roman Legions carried pilums. They threw them right before melee to make enemy shields less effective.

To be an archer or slinger, you would have to carry massive amounts of ammo. Why they seldom worried about armor.