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I saw Ayakashi's great post about the Tang Dynasty and think that the Chinese faction wouldn't be complete without Song Dynasty for part II of Millennium A.D. Here's my proposal:

Song Dynasty (960 - 1279AD)

 
Brief history
After a period of upheaval and unrest that was the turbulent Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms, the Song Dynasty rose up and reunite the Chinese people once again (to certain extent). A period of relative peace soon followed, and Chinese cultural, economic and scientific advancements were at all time heights during the Song Dynasty. Nevertheless, the Chinese have to constantly struggle with the even more powerful Khitan Liao Dynasty, the Jurchen Jin Dynasty, the Tangut Western Xia Dynasty, and eventually, faced their demise at the hand of the Mongols. The Chinese would not endure their Mongol overlord for long, and quickly overthrow the Yuan Dynasty to form the Ming Dynasty.
 
 
Gameplay
Attrition warfare: Turtling and booming.
With reform, Song player can adjust their military to focus on:
* Gigantic swarms of cheap infantry unit.
* Early access of expensive foreign elite units.
* Late game high tech units and champions.
 
Song Dynasty is even more catered for turtle player than its predecessor, the Tang Dynasty. While Tang Dynasty was militarily strong, with a fierce contingent of light cavalry backed by very competent infantry, the same cannot be said for the Song Dynasty. At this period the Chinese were constantly troubled by severe lack of horse, so their army was almost entirely infantry-based. Low social status of soldiers and the tendency to distrust or even execute capable military commander certainly did not help matters.
 
In stark contrast to their weak army, Chinese advanced tremendously in almost every field related to economy: Agriculture, metallurgy, as well as commerce and foreign trade. Major exports were silk, porcelain and tea. (The claim that Song Dynasty had 80% GDP share of the world is totally false, however).
 
Also around this time we saw large-scale use of gunpowder weapons for the first time, both by the Chinese and their enemies. Due to their maritime trade, Song Chinese were very advanced in naval and navigation technology, inventing watertight compartment as well as utilizing paddle-wheel warships (and a blue water navy) on large scale.
 

Civilization Traits

* Imperial society - The Chinese did not live in a feudal society. Song civilization start with the usual civic center building instead of castle/fortress typical of Millennium A.D.

* Forbidden army of eight hundred thousand - The Song Dynasty was able to maintain a truly mind-boggling amount of full-time professional troops, but not all of them combat worthy. Most Song infantry are cheap, train fast, and extremely tough for their price. However, they cannot perform economic task.

* Defennd oriented - The Song Dynasty defensive strategy was heavily reliant on passive defense and developed superior defensive construction as a result.

 

Civilization Bonuses

Advanced Agriculture 1

History: Chinese mastery in agriculture was unsurpassed up until early modern period (don't quote me, but they were quite far ahead of the rest of world during our time frame AFAIK). They had farming treaties, multiple-tube seed drills and curved iron crankshaft plow, to name but a few. (And these are just the inventions of the previous dynasties)

Effect: Increase farm yield.

 

Silk & Porcelain Trade

History: The main export of the Chinese since the Han Dynasty.

Effect: 15% gain to both trader and merchant ship.

 

Civilization Disadvantages

* Overpriced cavalry: Cavalry of the Song Dynasty are massively overpriced, but only of moderate quality.

* Slow infantry: Infantry of the Song Dynasty are weighted down by their extra-heavy armor.

* Slow expansion: The general slowness of the Song army means that they also cannot expand effectively. However, their overwhelmingly powerful economic technologies ensure that they stay ahead of their opponents economically without expanding territory.

 

Team Bonuses

Tribute Mission

History: The Chinese were no longer the dominant superpower of the Far East that could automatically attract tribute from the so-called 'lesser' countries. Tribute mission of this period was useful to put up the facade that Song Dynasty was still powerful and, more importantly, to maintain foreign relationship as (more or less) equals. Although Song Dynasty was the one that was receiving tribute, they tend to give more than they receive.

Effect: Allied traders and merchant ships gain +60% trade profit when trading with the Song civilization. Not applicable to Song civilization itself.

 

Researched Unique Technologies

Odometer and South-Pointing Chariot

History: The combination of odometer and compass makes charting map much easier.

Effect: All Song building and land unit gain +25% vision range.

 

Advanced Agriculture 2

History: During the Northern Song, introduction of foreign crop from Champa (modern day Vietnam), Korea, India and Middle East greatly improved food producton, while the invention of Yang Ma (秧馬) or 'Seedling Horse' made planting and harvesting crops faster and easier.

Effect: Increase farm yield even more and reduce harvest intervals. Stack with Advanced Agriculture 1.

 

Tea-Horse Trade

History: The Chinese traded tea for horses.

Effect: Reduce training cost of cavalry. (To other civilizations, this could be a borderline OP upgrade. To the Chinese, this only makes their cavalry somewhat more viable.)

 

Gunpowder Formula

History: The first detailed formula of gunpowder was recorded in the Northern Song military encyclopedia Wujing Zongyao.

Effect: Song Dynasty siege weapons gain explosive ammunition.

 

Double-piston Flamethrower

History: The Chinese invented a variant of the Greek Fire that can spill out continuous flame.

Effect: Song Dynasty defensive tower gains a devastating flame attack.

 

Reform Technologies

<Reform 1> New Policies/Wang Anshi Reform (王安石變法)

History: A massive centralization project conducted by Northern Song minister Wang Anshi.

Effect:

* Reduce cost of farm plot.

* Increase house capacity.

* Increase trade efficiency.

* Reduce cost of all military unit.

* Reduce cost of military research.

* Civic center, house and defensive tower gain additional arrow attack.

 

<Reform 2> Alliance of the Sea (海上之盟)

History: Northern Song Dynasty formed an alliance with the Jin Dynasty in order to destroy the Liao.

Effect: Access to powerful but expensive Jin Dynasty units. (Ironically, this has nothing to do with navy)

 

<Reform 3> Jian Yan Exodus (建炎南渡)

History: Northern Song Dynasty was destroyed, only to be replaced by Southern Song Dynasty.

Effect: Drastic restructuring of the entire army and access to many new weapon, technologies and upgrades.

Unlock technology: Advanced Agriculture 3

Unlock technology: Coke Fuel

Unlock technology: Watertight Compartment

 

Proposed Unit Roster

Support Unit

Female Citizen

Military Laborer (廂兵) - Only unit in the entire civilization that can build military building.

Trader

Merchant Ship

Fishing Boat

Healer - (Personally I oppose to the "religious personnel as healer" approach. While this is somewhat true for Christian faith, Chinese medicine for the most part was very secularized.)

 

Forbidden Army (禁軍)

* Forbidden Army units cannot gather resource or construct building.

Spearman (槍手) - General purpose infantry. Counter cavalry.

Glaiveman (刀斧手) - Fragile (by Chinese standard, they are still heavily armored infantry) anti-everything heavy hitter. Vulnerable to ranged unit.

Javelin Pavisier (鏢牌手) - Very tough meatshield/tarpit infanty. Counter ranged unit.

Archer (弓手)

Crossbowman (弩手)

Cavalry (馬軍)

 

Siege Weapon

Whirlwind Trebuchet (旋風車砲)

Siege Crossbow (床子弩)

Warship

Paddle Wheel Tower Ship

 

Hero Unit

Di Qing (狄青)

Yue Fei (岳飛)

*Third Hero TBD

 

<Reform 2 Unit>

Jurchen "Iron Pagoda" Superheavy Cataphract (鐵浮屠)

Jurchen Dismounted "Iron Pagoda" Cataphract

Jurchen Medium Cavalry (拐子馬)

 

<Reform 3 Unit>

Bamboo Gunner (突火槍)

War Wagon (如意戰車)

Counterweight Trebuchet (回回砲)

Heavy War Junk (尖底海船)

Ironclad Rammer Warship (鐵壁鏵嘴船)

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Eyecandy Only the horseman is accurate though. Other soldiers are dressed in armour from other period. This is a concept art for a WIP Skyrim (and Mount and Blade, I think) mod called Cangloong Cit

I saw Ayakashi's great post about the Tang Dynasty and think that the Chinese faction wouldn't be complete without Song Dynasty for part II of Millennium A.D. Here's my proposal: Song Dynasty (96

Scrapped Civilization Proposal

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Scrapped Civilization Proposal

THE SONG DYNASTY (Northern Song 960-1127, Southern Song 1127-1279)

Early Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1453, Jingtai reign)

Brief history:

After a period of upheaval and unrest that was the turbulent Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms, the Song Dynasty rose up and reunite the Chinese people once again. A period of relative peace soon followed, and Chinese cultural, economic and scientific advancements were at all time heights during the Song Dynasty. Nevertheless, the Chinese have to constantly struggle with the even more powerful Khitan Liao Dynasty, and later the Tangut Western Xia Dynasty, Jurchen Jin Dynasty, and eventually, faced their demise at the hand of the Mongols. The Chinese would not endure their Mongol overlord for long, and quickly overthrow the Yuan Dynasty to form the Ming Dynasty.

Gameplay:

Turtling and economic powerhouse.

Song Dynasty is even more catered for turtle player than its predecessor, the Tang Dynasty. While Tang Dynasty was militarily strong, with a fierce contingent of light cavalry backed by very competent infantry, the same cannot be said for the Song Dynasty. At this period the Chinese were constantly troubled by severe lack of horse, so their army was almost entirely infantry-based. Low social status of soldiers and the tendency to distrust or even execute capable military commander certainly did not help matters.

In stark contrast to their weak army, Chinese advanced tremendously in almost every field related to economy: Agriculture, metallurgy, as well as commerce and foreign trade. Major exports were silk, porcelain and tea. (The claim that Song Dynasty had 80% GDP share of the world is totally false, though).

Also around this time we saw large-scale use of gunpowder weapons for the first time, both by the Chinese and their enemies. Due to their maritime trade, the Song Chinese were very advanced in naval and navigation technology, inventing watertight compartment as well as utilizing paddle-wheel warships (and a blue water navy) on large scale.

Civ Feature:

Imperial Society: The Chinese did not live in a feudal society, and never developed anything like the European "castle network". They start with the usual civic center building instead of castle/fortress typical of Millennium A.D.

Civ Bonus:

* House accommodate 15 ~ 20 population from the start. Being the most populous country at the time has its perk.

* Additional farming technologies (Increase yield): steel tipped plough, foreign crops.

* Additional farming technologies (Reduce harvest interval): Agriculture treatises, multi-tube seed drill.

* Iron industry: Bonus to metal mining and cheaper blacksmith upgrades.

Civ Disadvantage:

* Only has access to one type of extremely weak Citizen Soldier unit.

* Slow expansion.

* Once promoted to Elite status, most infantry units become very slow, encumbered by their heavy armor.

* Expensive, slow to train cavalry due to chronic lack of horse.

* Horseshoe, which is quite important to the performance of cavalry, was unknown to the Chinese until Mongol Yuan dynasty. This put Chinese cavalry at a disadvantage when compared to other civilizations that have access to this technology.

Unique Tech / Upgrade:

* Odometer and South-Pointing Chariot - Increase vision range.

* Watertight Compartment - Increase Hit Point of naval unit.
* Coke fuel - Replace wood requirement on all unit/upgrade except building and mechanical unit to stone at half cost. Can be toggle on/off.

* Maritime trade - The Chinese ventured as far as Africa (Fatimid Egypt).

* Gunpowder Formula - Late game upgrade that provides different bonus depending on which reform tech is chosen.
Reform Tech 1: Undying Loyalty
Special upgrade that mobilize the Song Empire against foreign incursions, which enhance their defensive strategy. Bonus include:
*Fortresses and towers become cheaper, and build faster.
*Crossbowmen gain bonus damage and range.
*Unlock counterweight trebuchet.
*Unlock elite Bei Wei Champion units.
*Gunpowder Formula unlocks bamboo gunner and upgrade infantry archer, whirlwind trebuchet and siege crossbow with explosive ammunition.
*Access to Militia Sentry(鄉兵)Upgrade - Civic centers, barracks, docks, fortresses and defense towers gain extra arrow attack. Stacks with existing attack and other similar upgrade.
*Access to Double-Piston Flamethrower(猛火油櫃)Upgrade - Fortress and defense towers gain flamethrower attack.
*Access to late game Tower Crossbow Upgrade - Fortress and defense towers gain siege crossbow attack.
If Undying Loyalty is researched, Mandate of Heaven become unavailable.
Reform Tech 2: Mandate of Heaven
Special upgrade that advance the Chinese faction into the era of Ming Dynasty, which drastically altered their strategy and playstyle. Bonus include:
*Removal of the mostly useless Xiang Bing unit. All Xiang Bing unit already built will instantly turn into pikeman unit.
*All barrack units will be replaced with a cheaper, less armored, but much more mobile version, and turn into Citizen Soldier.
*Promotion to Elite status no longer slow down your unit.
*Siege weapons and naval units will be replaced with faster and longer ranged Ming Dynasty variant.
*Unlock Five Armies Battalion, Three Thousand Battalion, and Jinyiwei.
*Gunpowder Formula unlocks hand gunner, cluster rockets, Divine Engine Battalion and land mines.
*Access to late game Tower Cannon Upgrade - Fortress and defense towers gain cannon attack.
If Mandate of Heaven is researched, Undying Loyalty become unavailable.

Scrapped Unit Roster (Draft)

Non-Combat Unit

Woman

Healer (Taoism, Buddhism, or Neo-Confucianism)

Trader

Fishing Boat

Trading Junk

Civic Center Unit / Citizen Soldier

xiang bing (廂兵)- The only citizen soldier for this faction. Armed with a spear, this unit is extremely weak but also very cheap and train fast.

* This unit is removed if reform tech 2 is researched.

Barrack Unit / Champion Unit

Spearman (槍牌手) - Anti cavalry and meat shield unit. Armed with spear or halberd, as well as heavy pavise. Highly resistant to missile damage.

Heavy Axeman (劍斧手)- Shock troops that use not only axes, but also glaives. Have no shield.

Archer (弓箭手)

Crossbowman (硬弩手)

Heavy Cavalry(馬軍)- Become Cataphract on Elite status.

<Reform 1> Bamboo Gunner(突火槍)

<Reform 2> Pikeman (長槍手) - Replace spearman.

<Reform 2> Swordsman (刀牌手)- Swift anti archer unit that is highly resistant to missile damage. Replace axeman.

<Reform 2> Archer (弓箭手)- Replace original archer.

<Reform 2> Hand Gunner (铳手) - Replace crossbowman.

<Reform 2> Rocket Infantry (九龍筒)- Shoots nine rockets per salvo. Wildly inaccurate.

<Reform 2> Cavalry Lancer (驍騎) - Replace heavy cavalry

<Reform 2> Horse Archer (輕騎)

*Although considered Champion unit (thus cannot perform gathering or construction), they are only on par with Citizen Soldiers of other factions, and generally lose to 'true' Champion units. However, they are available very early in the game, and can gain promotions.

** If reform tech 2 is researched, they become Citizen Soldier.

Fortress Unit / Elite Champion Unit
<Reform 1> Bei Wei Cavalry(背嵬馬軍)*- Elite personal guard of Yue Fei. Heavy Cataphract armed with glaive and axe.
<Reform 1> Bei Wei Infantry (背嵬步軍)*- Infantry version of the Bei Wei Cavalry.
<Reform 2> Divine Engine Battalion (神機營)- Elite Hand Gunner that shoots poisoned arrow instead of bullet, with extended range.
<Reform 2> Five Armies Battalion (五軍營)- Elite Cavalry Lancer.
<Reform 2> Three Thousand Battalion (三千營) - Elite Mongolian Horse Archer
<Reform 2> Jinyiwei(錦衣衛) - Special agent specialized in espionage and assassination.

Siege Weapon

War cart (如意戰車)*- A cheaper and slightly faster "siege tower lite". Can form into special "laager formation" that encircle other ranged siege unit. Garrisonable to up to three troops. Highly resistant to arrow and cavalry attack.

Mobile Whirwind Trebuchet (旋風車砲)

Siege Crossbow (弩車)*- A carroballista. Basic unit has one bow, Advanced unit has double bows, Elite unit has triple bows. Fairly tough for a siege unit.

<Reform 1> Counterweight Trebuchet (回回炮)*- Need to deploy to shoot.

<Reform 2> Rocket Cart (火箭車)*- Replace war cart. Cannot be garrisoned anymore.

<Reform 2> Siege Tower (臨衝呂公車) - Use RoTE siege tower model.

<Reform 2> Bombard (大銃)- Replace whirlwind trebuchet.

Warship

Superheavy War Junk (尖底海船) - Giant 2000 liao (Gross tonnage 450 tons, displacement 600 tons) warship, larger than the famous Flor de la Mar.

Heavy War Junk (巡船) - Heavy warship of 1000 liao displacement.

Ironclad Rammer(鐵壁鏵嘴船)* - Heavily armored hybrid oar & paddle wheel war boat designed for ramming attack.

<Reform 2> Heavy War Junk (戰座船)- 400 liao (166 tons), similar to most carrack.
<Reform 2> War Junk (戰船)- 200 liao (83 tons) light warship.
<Reform 2> Camouflaged Fire Ship (火船)- It looked like a normal fishing junk.
* Song Dynasty had a riverine navy, a coastal navy, and a blue water navy, AND some hybrid riverine-coastal warships, so it is really hard to decide which ship to put in. I chose mainly junk-type warships to represent the Song Dynasty lineup so that it will not differ too much from the Ming-era warships. This also means the Chinese will have access to Carrack sized heavy warships armed with gunpowder weaponry (albeit without effective broadside cannons like the 16th century carracks and galleons), while everyone else are still using galleys and cogs.
Heroes
<Reform 1> Di Qing 狄青 (Horse archer/Horse flailman) - Northern Song general who always wear a bronze mask and keep his hair unkempt during battle.
<Reform 1> Yue Fei 岳飛 (Cataphract) - Famous Southern Song general and national hero of China.
<Reform 1> Yang Miao Zhen 楊妙真 (Fire lance cavalry) - Female Southern Song general famed for her fire lance.
<Reform 2> Chang Yu Chun 常遇春 (Horse Archer) - Fierce warrior from early Ming Dynasty. Closest thing we have to a Romance of Three Kingdom-esque ‘superhuman’ in real life.

<Reform 2> Zhu Di 朱棣 (Spear Cavalry) - The King of Yan, and later Yongle Emperor. One of the rare and fiercest martial emperor of China that fought his way to the throne, and then continue to led his army at the front line.

<Reform 2> Treasure Ship 寶船 - Gigantic Trade-Warship Hybrid. It has poor firepower relative to its size, and functions more like a fire magnet or troop transport than real warship.

Special Building

<Reform 2> Land mine (地雷)- Explode when stepped on (duh).

Proposed Wonder

<Reform 1> Su Song's Astronomical Clock Tower

OR

<Reform 2> Porcelain Tower of Nanjing

Misc

Skirmisher (標牌手)- Armed with large pavise and shield.

<Reform 2> Cluster Rocket (一窩蜂)- After checking Wu Bei Zhi, I found that Nest of Bees is in fact a wagon-mounted rocket....

Cavalry Crossbowman

Battering Ram (撞車)

Mobile Double-piston Flamethrower (猛火油櫃)

Song Dynasty horse archer and Ming Dynasty crossbowman.

Edited by wolflance
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256d82847ff4e25f7ebf084a15e9f74d.jpg
Eyecandy ;)
Only the horseman is accurate though. Other soldiers are dressed in armour from other period.

3.jpg
This is a concept art for a WIP Skyrim (and Mount and Blade, I think) mod called Cangloong City, but could serves as useful reference for standard Song Dynasty soldier load out.

The left guy would be a Advanced level unit, the middle guy is a Elite level unit (or Champion), and the right guy is a Hero unit. Basic unit would be unarmored, but otherwise identical to the left guy.

Note the felt hat, scarf and waist cloth, especially that felt hat, which is one of the most distinct equipment of Song troops.

An animated feature film base on the Northern Song painted scroll 《清明上河圖》 or "Along the River During the Qingming Festival". It is a very good reference on the urban life during the Song Dynasty, and contains many reference on Song period architecture, civilian clothing, civilian boat design, city walls, and miscellaneous things like umbrellas or lanterns.

Edited by wolflance
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A well researched update to the proposal mate so hats off to you! I Espically like how you handle the transition into early Ming and your knowledge of Ming 禁衛軍 Jin-Wei-Jun champion units!

A few suggestions I would add to your unit roster though, if you don't mind:

1) Maybe at least allow Barracks units to build some military buildings like barracks, towers and walls.

2) 神臂弩 Divine Arms Crossbowmen. Good vs heavy infantry and cavalry. One of the most famous of Song weapons. Or are 硬弩手 Crossbowmen the same thing?

3) 錦衣衛 Jinyiwei. Post reform champion unit for spying and espionage. Armed with boardsword. Big line of sight. Can disguise as enemy units in order to assassinate enemy heroes. Loses disguise when attacking.

4) 回回砲 Muslim Trebuchet. Mid game counterweight trebuchet that the Song reverse-engineered from the Mongols. Maybe have it replaced by heavy bombard post reform?

5) 火箭車 Rocket launcher wheelbarrows!

6) Post-reform maybe replace siege crossbows with a lighter bombard that shoots giant iron tipped wooden arrows instead so it can still fulfil the same function? Although info on it are hard to find, and I'm having trouble trying find the right name for it from a Chinese source. This link: http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/index-english12122007.html (click on 'fire arrows') calls it 神機箭 (Shenji Jian), but I thought the term was used for rockets. Campare with the Korean Chongtongjeon.

7) Why the removal of Flamethrowers?

8) It would be cool if the Treasure Ship is like a naval hero unit. You can only build one. But it has massive HP and good vs enemy ships. It can function like a mobile trading port, so you can use a merchant ship to have it set a trade route between it and an ally's dock. And finally can also train non-elite ground units when next to land.

9) You must have heard of it. That ship which the front is filled with bombs and can be detatched after latching onto an enemy ship with spikes. That could make for an interesting unit!

10) Maybe have certain ships be able to deploy water mines.

11) What about having the Porcelain Tower of Nanjing as the wonder? It was built during the early 1400s so it fits the timeframe and it makes sense since Wonders are meant to be final phase structures. I know other games have done it before but hey, its one of the 7 medieval wonders and Liaodi Pagoda IMO isn't as pretty!

Edited by Ayakashi
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*snip*

1) Actually, I wanted to emulate the historical fact that all hundred thousands of Song troops are full-time professional soldiers on government payroll, and generally leave the dirty works to Xiang Bing, which are also under full-time military employment, but totally unreliable in combat.

(I also want the Chinese faction to have a unique 'feel' to it, different from all other faction)

2) 硬弩手 is just a generic term for 'heavy crossbowman'. For the most part I prefer generic name for ordinary units, because we don't usually see something like "windlass steel crossbowman" for other faction, just "crossbowman".

Besides, the Song Chinese actually improved upon the 神臂弓 to create an even more devastating 克敵弓, quite a hassle to rename a unit every so often.

3) Nobody expects the SpaniMing Dynasty Inquisition! This is a pretty cool idea. At the moment 0ad doesn't have any spy unit yet, vanilla or otherwise. But I am all for it anyway.

4) I am not sure whether making three different models (traction trebuchet > counterweight trebuchet > bombard) for a siege weapon is worth the effort -- let's wait and see how other factions handle this transition (traction > counterweight trebuchet) and decide later.

5 & 6) Earliest drawing of Chinese Rocket Wheelbarrow that I could find is from the Wu Bei Zhi, which is from late Ming Dynasty (i.e. outside of our time frame). Besides, it overlaps with the handheld version.

7) Same reason as the Tang Dynasty thread - no evidence of its use as field weapon. I make it into an upgrade for the defense tower though. Fit nicely with the turtling strategy of this faction.

8) Good point.

9 & 10) Could be the same unit - But I need to check whether this 'bomb ship' fit into the time period (Do not trust Osprey books).

11) Liaodi Pagoda is actually a leftover from when this thread is still just about Song Dynasty.

Edited by wolflance
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Well on the rocket launcher wheelbarrow. They were used in the Jingnan War of 1401 which fits into our timeframe. According to Grandhistorian: Termed the Huo Che or "Fire Cart", these appeared in Ming dynasty descriptions of special Huo Che armed military units ca. A.D. 1401 and were used in the Jingnan war of A.D. 1401-1403 which saw Emperor Zhu Di replace Emperor Jianwen on the celestial throne. These early wheeled rocket launchers were simple collections of four Chang She Po Di Jian (Long Serpent Kill Enemy Arrows) launchers on the top, and two Bai Hu Qi Ben Jian (Hundred Tiger Together Run Arrows) launchers at the side, strung together to be fired all at once or fired individually, to allow for a more sustained fire directed at opposing enemy troops. Manned by four soldiers, two manning the rockets and two providing the motive power, the Huo Che was an incredible weapon capable of letting loose up to a fantastic total of 320 rockets from all six launch tubes." See that same link as above post but click on Huo Che "Fire Cart".

In terms of gameplay I'd see it as being stronger than nest of bees, but more slow and expensive. So it's like a 'proper seige engine' and nest of bees being an infantry from the barracks. Have it replace the siege crossbow instead because don't you think it's a bit weird to replace a large siege engine that takes a whole team to operate with a single footsoldier? And maybe even have it so nest of bees can mount and shoot rockets from towers, walls and some ships and the rocket carts can't.

As for the counterweight trebuchet, My bad 'cause I didn't make it clear that I never meant it as an upgrade to the traction one. The traction trebuchet would be more mobile, has quicker fire rate and is AOE anti-unit. The counterweight one would have to be deployed and is anti building. This should be consistant with their historical use. I'd have it exclusive to Reform 1.

As for the rest: Good point I agree!

Nice new update BTW! Goes perfectly with the mod's idea of 3rd phase specialization! Now that I think about it this addresses what to do with the Yuan: A 3rd phase specialization for the Mongols. They can choose either Yuan Dynasty or Golden Horde.

Edited by Ayakashi
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Well on the rocket launcher wheelbarrow. They were used in the Jingnan War of 1401 which fits into our timeframe. According to Grandhistorian: Termed the Huo Che or "Fire Cart", these appeared in Ming dynasty descriptions of special Huo Che armed military units ca. A.D. 1401 and were used in the Jingnan war of A.D. 1401-1403 which saw Emperor Zhu Di replace Emperor Jianwen on the celestial throne. These early wheeled rocket launchers were simple collections of four Chang She Po Di Jian (Long Serpent Kill Enemy Arrows) launchers on the top, and two Bai Hu Qi Ben Jian (Hundred Tiger Together Run Arrows) launchers at the side, strung together to be fired all at once or fired individually, to allow for a more sustained fire directed at opposing enemy troops. Manned by four soldiers, two manning the rockets and two providing the motive power, the Huo Che was an incredible weapon capable of letting loose up to a fantastic total of 320 rockets from all six launch tubes." See that same link as above post but click on Huo Che "Fire Cart".

In terms of gameplay I'd see it as being stronger than nest of bees, but more slow and expensive. So it's like a 'proper seige engine' and nest of bees being an infantry from the barracks. Have it replace the siege crossbow instead because don't you think it's a bit weird to replace a large siege engine that takes a whole team to operate with a single footsoldier? And maybe even have it so nest of bees can mount and shoot rockets from towers, walls and some ships and the rocket carts can't.

As for the counterweight trebuchet, My bad 'cause I didn't make it clear that I never meant it as an upgrade to the traction one. The traction trebuchet would be more mobile, has quicker fire rate and is AOE anti-unit. The counterweight one would have to be deployed and is anti building. This should be consistant with their historical use. I'd have it exclusive to Reform 1.

As for the rest: Good point I agree!

Nice new update BTW! Goes perfectly with the mod's idea of 3rd phase specialization! Now that I think about it this addresses what to do with the Yuan: A 3rd phase specialization for the Mongols. They can choose either Yuan Dynasty or Golden Horde.

The description of rocket wheelbarrow in Ming Shi about the war of Jingnan is too vague for me to make any sense of, but I agree with you about the nest of bees infantry being 'out of place' for a siege unit. Modified my post.

Nevertheless, 40+ units is way too much for a faction. Probably need to trim it down a little bit in the future. The good news is, visual difference between Song and early Ming infantry can be sum up as "they wear different hat", at least for the Basic version.

Edited by wolflance
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Dude I'm sorry to be a bit of a pain again. But I strongly, and I have to stress STRONGLY, disagree with cutting the Nest of Bees unit and I urge you to put it back. It's such an awesome and unique unit with so much character and potential and so representative of early Ming gunpowder warfare it just HAS to be included. IMO its role don't overlap anymore than Cavalry Lancer vs Five Armies Battalion, or the Hand gunner vs Divine Engine Battalion, or a WWII Light Tank vs a Heavy Tank. One is weaker, cheaper, more mobile and is an infantry, the other a stronger, more expensive, slower and is a seige unit.

IMO, it's not really that many units. Many are just upgrades/replacements of other units like in Age of Empires.

Edited by Ayakashi
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Uhh, Double post, might as well utilize this space.

The 《奉天靖難記》 and 《明史記事本》 recorded the appearance of "Huo Che" during the Jingnan war in 1401, although no detail about this thing was given. However, it was listed / used together with firearms, crossbows, and pavises, so this Huo Che is very likely some kind of defensive rocket weapon.
Earliest definitive record describing a rocket cart (that I could find) can be dated to 1449, which is still later than the Korean's 1409 record, but within the timeframe of Part II. It is a 4 boxes, 600 rockets (how the hell did they cram so many rocket in?), 20 guns version (only five guns are equipped at any time, others are backup), and required four operators. It should be larger than the version in the Wu Bei Chi drawing.
Edited by wolflance
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Dude I'm sorry to be a bit of a pain again. But I strongly, and I have to stress STRONGLY, disagree with cutting the Nest of Bees unit and I urge you to put it back. It's such an awesome and unique unit with so much character and potential and so representative of early Ming gunpowder warfare it just HAS to be included. IMO its role don't overlap anymore than Cavalry Lancer vs Five Armies Battalion, or the Hand gunner vs Divine Engine Battalion, or a WWII Light Tank vs a Heavy Tank. One is weaker, cheaper, more mobile and is an infantry, the other a stronger, more expensive, slower and is a seige unit.

IMO, it's not really that many units. Many are just upgrades/replacements of other units like in Age of Empires.

Part of the reason I removed that unit is to balance out the total unit count for reform 1 and reform 2. Although Ming Dynasty is, by definition, more technological advanced than Song Dynasty, I want both reform to be equally powerful / useful, only play differently. Nevertheless, I adjusted the bonus and unit somewhat.

25 unit is quite a lot actually, even Carthaginians from the original game did not have that many unit. (Well, Ptolemies has more than 25, but that's the exception).

Edited by wolflance
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Song dynasty ships are way bigger than early Ming Dynasty ships!? :shocking:

Yes, although larger does not always equal better, especially in naval warfare.

A 400 liao Ming Dynasty ship should be roughly equivalent to 1000 liao Song Dynasty ship in size and tonnage, due to difference in measurement standard.

The treasure ship is also recorded as 2000 liao, but that is exaggerated/improbable.

Edited by wolflance
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Yes. That makes sense.

But what happens to the Superheavy War Junk once you get Reform 2? Will it shrink? If so wouldn't that be weird?

Didn't the Ming have 50m War Junks that were supposedly part of the treasure fleet?

And wouldn't 2000 liao translate to only 830 tons? That's about the size of an average 16th century galleon. Miles smaller then even the most 'toned down' size estimate for the Treasure Ship.

Edited by Ayakashi
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Yes. That makes sense.

But what happens to the Superheavy War Junk once you get Reform 2? Will it shrink? If so wouldn't that be weird?

Didn't the Ming have 50m War Junks that were supposedly part of the treasure fleet?

And wouldn't 2000 liao translate to only 830 tons? That's about the size of an average 16th century galleon. Miles smaller then even the most 'toned down' size estimate for the Treasure Ship.

Yes, because the Song (reform 1) is suppose to fit the 'slow and though' playstyle while the early Ming (reform 2) is 'fast and hard-hitting',like their land unit as well.

I've seen wild claims about the 2000 liao treasure ship translate to 2000 ~ 20000 tons, so I have no idea...

Edited by wolflance
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I completely agree with your play style decision when it comes to land warfare. But I respectfully disagree with giving the Ming significantly smaller ships. Considering that:

* According to Ventian explorer Niccolò de' Conti, who lived at the same time as Zheng He: in a trip across South East Asia he described seeing junks with 5 masts that weighted 2000 tons. This is consistent with Chinese accounts, and though it's possible both sides may have exaggerated a little it does show that Ming ships during the 1400s were significantly bigger than anything in Europe at the time.

* Zheng He's voyages is one of the first things people think about when it comes to the Ming Dynasty. Therefore: one of the reasons someone would go with Ming is because they will want big ships. Having a rather small 166 ton junk as the biggest 'normal' ship will be disappointing: it's about the same size as a 1400s European Medium Carrack (like the 19m Santa Maria). The Ming should have way bigger warships than that.

* The use of small and fast warships is more characteristic the Late Ming. Such as in the battles of Xicaowan (1522) and Liaoluo Bay (1633) against the Portuguese and Dutch.

* IMO, Shrinking a huge ship to something 1/3 its size (600 tons to 166 tons) after an upgrade is hilarious! You can't get more anticlimactic than that!

I would suggest these changes:

* Give the Ming a bigger ship: like the 50m+ Fuchuan (大福船). So now Ming Heavy War Junk replaces Song Heavy War Junk.

* I don't think the Scout Junk should be a post reform unit. It should be for early game scouting as the name implies. By late games players wouldn't be needing a new scout unit they would be rolling out their toughest units.

* The song need their own special naval unit: maybe it can be the Superheavy War Junk, or maybe a Large Tower Ship with multiple trebuchets for shoreline bombardment. Maybe even make the Ironclad Rammer post Reform 1?

* Gameplay wise, I would do this: Reform 1 ships excel in offshore siege/bombardment. They have trebuchet thrown bombs that causes splash damage against land units and does heavy damage against buildings and forts. Reform 2 ships excel in ship to ship combat. They have more health and anti ship cannons, but are not as good against defensive structures. IMO this reflects better the notion of the Song's emphasis on river/coastal warfare and the early Ming's status as one of the world's strongest naval power.

As for the Treasure Ship: this site:http://ioacs.org/boat/zhengheboat.html which is backed by Chinese maritime historians describes the second biggest ships in the treasure fleet as being 120m x 50m in size. Sounds crazy right? Anyways its got a very good collection of historically accurate ship models from different dynasties.

Sorry if I'm coming across as a bit critical. But I reckon your proposal is looking amazing so far. The most complete out of the entire forum lol! :thumbsup:

Edited by Ayakashi
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Actually don't worry about the tonnage too much :smoke: - I just list it out to show that Song ships are supposedly slower than Ming ships - in-game models will not be made to scale anyway.

For the most part we do not have any visual reference available for the Song ships, save for that painted scrolls (refer to the YouTube video I shared) , and the Nanhai One wreck. The drawings from Wujing Zongyao are riverine warships, and very likely outdated even by Song standard (and replaced with paddle wheel version).

The reconstruction on Nanhai One are visually similar to Ming-period ships, so with some minor tweaking it could pass for a Ming ship, thus reduce the workload of the modders (I heard animating oars is quite a hassle too).

I pull out the 400 liao Ming warship from the book 《南船记》 because it is the largest warship of this time period (1450+), excluding behemoths like treasure ship. Besides, there are Ming Dynasty drawings as well as accurate modern reconstruction of this particular warship, so modelers will have something to refer to.

Regarding your concern:

* I actually intend the reform tech to be mid-game upgrade. By late game the Chinese should be getting cannons and explosives. I will rethink about the scout ship though - maybe turn it into a fire ship or something.

* It is also my intention to make the ironclad rammer a reform 1 unit, I just haven't figure out how to properly propose it. This is an almost semi-mythological weapon like the claw of Archimedes or the 'heat ray', after all.

Edited by wolflance
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How much is one liao anyway? Can't even find any result even using specific terms in Chinese such as "Ming Dynasty Liao". Cause if the biggest Treasure Ship is 2000 liao then a liao back then must be a ton or more.

If we can't get a good reference for something like the ironclad rammer as a Reform 1 unit why not just use something more certain, but still unique to them instead? Like big paddle ships with trebuchets? I just think we should differentiate reform 1 and 2 ships more than just 'big slow ships vs fast ships'.

I think the mod's original idea is to have specialization option as part of you 3rd phase upgrade. Dunno if that has changed though.

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The liao 料 seems to be a unit to measure capacity instead of weight, with little standardization between dynasties or even between different era of the same dynasty, and government liao unit is very different from civilian liao , which seems to different from one guild/organisation to another. From the article I read, a Song Dynasty 2000 liao civilian ship is only half the capacity of a 2000 liao government ship, etc.

Modern calculation put 1 Ming Dynasty liao = 10 cubic meter, from the article I read, anyway.

We don't have any good reference (except Nanhai One) for other Song warships anyway. Trebuchets, crossbows, flamethrowers and bombs are pretty much standard now so those will definitely show up on Song warships (regardless of method of propulsion). For the Ming, bombards and rockets replace trebuchets and crossbows.

I'm afraid letting a civ that is good at turtling and economy to hold out (while amassing a big army) until Phase 3 and then suddenly reform into a mobile and hard-hitting army might be too overpowered, and it lessen the incentive to choose reform 1 because by Phase 3 you want to be attacking anyway.

Making the civ branch out earlier also let your opponent to have time to adjust and counter your new tactics (if his scouting is good), which IMO is a good thing. However if late game specialization is the direction this mod is taking, then we can always adjust later.

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How do you feel having the Song/Reform 1 wonder be Su Song's Clock Tower instead? To me it feels more 'significant'. And its probably better if we don't have both wonders be pagodas!

Aren't that tower a bit too small for a wonder? Or we just make a gigantic version? (I recall the full scale replica is only 12 m tall). Otherwise, good idea!

Edited by wolflance
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  • 3 weeks later...

Sorry I wasn't around for quite some time. Bad connection, couldn't even download the latest release. Anyway, I will put some visual reference here:

Song Dynasty Peasant Women (And a man, which can be used for Xiang Bing unit.)

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Reproduction Southern Song Dynasty Peasant Women's clothing

PL7aNLWm.jpg7s0lqkJm.jpg

Song Dynasty Sword - Type One (Backsword Type)

8af174d34d79b2ff753f2180e10c73dd.jpg

Song-Ming Dynasty Sword - Type Two (Falchion Type)

qVdr5Vf.jpg

Replica Song Dynasty Bamboo gun

3OSd4uvm.jpg

Mobile Whirlwind Trebuchet

tw0CAGKm.jpg

Triple-bow Giant Crossbow

irbimgWm.jpg

Model replica of Nanhai One, a Southern Song period merchant ship.

rZfh6Wz.jpg

Model Replica of Huaguangjiao One, a Southern Song period merchant ship.

8Wx6HYc.jpg

Ming Dynasty Saber (not the best picture tough)

aiTbnyhl.jpg

Early Ming Dynasty Handgonne

0eUJDuum.jpg

An arrow-shooting Shen Qiang (神槍) used by Champion unit Jingyiwei (left), and a Jiu Long Jian (九龍箭), nine-shot handheld rocket launcher (right).

T4P9jJz.jpg

Early Ming (1377AD) Cast Iron Bombard - 210mm bore, 100 mm total length. Has two pair of trunnions.

vTgp5elm.jpg

Model Replica of Zheng He's Treasure Ship (The black and white coloured hull with red trim was the standard colour scheme of Ming and Qing-era Chinese junk)

B2RLCJj.jpg

Model Replica of a 400 liao early Ming War Junk

ES8cAwHl.jpg

Edited by wolflance
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