Code of Conduct Clan CCC ...some rules for better multiplayer experience?

[RoekeloosNL]

Maybe a radius needs to be added to walls so you cant built 2/3 walls near each other.

[Tango_]

hi all

First, i agree with zzippy's wish.

"Actually, i think walls should be harder to destroy (except the door), but fire nothing except if they are guarded by mens. And there should be weapons that are able to makes mens pass over the walls without to destroy it." [Andjety]

---> so you want strongerwalls? ok, np, let me tell you something which happened to me:

i was on a game. i age2 fast, then i send troups near the closer enemy( a carthaginian) to build a cc. he was slow, to slow to counter my offensive. he saw my cc building. what did he do? he came with 3 sldiers, and built 3 walls (so 2 of them are wall turrets) just in front of my cc. as he's carthaginian, these walls totally were 45000life points. also, my cc was dead and usefull, before to be built. why? just by shhoting, his walls will destroy my cc. the second thing, is that units i could product from this cc should have been really injured , just after being produced. finnaly, if i age 2 fast to put the pression on my ennemy fast, i'm really not able to go age3 asap, to product seige weapons and destroy these walls. ----> my cc was useless, he had yet won the game by this way, just with 3 walls. do you think this is fair?

So here, you can understand that these walls are pretty cheated.

"Well, if he has no doors, he will be starving (out of ressources) very fast. Puting 15 catapults (with + 5 bonus), protected by mens and cav will put this walls down enough fast. Without doors, he can't even attac the catapult with cav or a hero, so it should be very fast. " [Andjety]

--->On the one hand, as somebody told you yet, even if he has no ressources, he could still continue his producction with merchandizing. pn the other hand, you say 15 catapults, some cav and infanry should be enough. ok, i agree. but tell me, when these walls will be down. what will you do? send an attack? ok, so, 1 catapult = 5pop. 5* 15= 75 pop, only for cata.

so, after destroying walls, you're on the bad way for the battle, cause your ennemy has 75 free pop more than you.. then, you will send your cav. they will be shot by wall turret, and other tower or fortress. before to fight in his town, your enemy has a so biiiiiig advantage : -75pop more than you (cause of cata)

- all your unit coming to the battle will be injured.

-what tell you that your enemy wont build other wall during the battle, to close his townfortress?

-during the time you were destroying his wall, with your cav and infantry next to your cata, as protection( so they're idle), your enemy can continue to gather ressources, as food which is an infinite ressources, then he can change this food on the market. so you have an economical disadvantage.

SOOooo, if i follow you Andjety, i wont play anymore as i actually do. Now, i should develop my eco asap, make of my town the biggest fortess you've never seen, then begin to expand . be sure if i have to do that, that you will never see my first cc, unless you wait hours, in order me to be bored, then be afk, to attack my walls and eventually destroy my cc.

Still in the game

[zzippy]

Maybe a radius needs to be added to walls so you cant built 2/3 walls near each other.

yes, exactly. And a minimum distance between the walltowers. And what about the costs/buildtime/health ratio?

A normal tower costs 100wood + 100 stone, buildtime 150, health 1000

A walltower costs 200 stone, buildtime 40, health 15000

Do I have to say more? So, unless this unbalance (how can this happen, btw?) is eliminated, wall(tower)s are a nogo.

Edited May 9, 2014 by zzippy

[sanderd17]

You know, it's a bit late to discuss all this. Alpha 16 is in feature freeze already, so it's a bit late to improve the balancing. If you discussed this a bit earlier, we could have fixed some of it for the next version.

[zzippy]

Well, this shouldn't be a discussion about rebalancing walltowers per se, should be only about not using them. To be honest, I thought (hoped) that you devs would be aware of it. If I knew that this isn't the case, I would have started to discuss walltowers rebalance...

Edited May 9, 2014 by zzippy

[FeXoR]

If wall towers are really "overpowered" there will be many players using them and win the game in the end.

But AFAIK that's not the case. And that means they are not "overpowered" (or PPL don't try to win games... which scenario I doubt).

AFAIK most players considered "good" (because they win more often then others) don't even use them at all.

Edited May 9, 2014 by FeXoR

[feneur]

i was on a game. i age2 fast, then i send troups near the closer enemy( a carthaginian) to build a cc. he was slow, to slow to counter my offensive. he saw my cc building. what did he do? he came with 3 sldiers, and built 3 walls (so 2 of them are wall turrets) just in front of my cc. as he's carthaginian, these walls totally were 45000life points. also, my cc was dead and usefull, before to be built. why? just by shhoting, his walls will destroy my cc. the second thing, is that units i could product from this cc should have been really injured , just after being produced. finnaly, if i age 2 fast to put the pression on my ennemy fast, i'm really not able to go age3 asap, to product seige weapons and destroy these walls. ----> my cc was useless, he had yet won the game by this way, just with 3 walls. do you think this is fair?

So here, you can understand that these walls are pretty cheated.

If you had units there to build the CC, why did you let his three units build their walls instead of just killing them and then continuing to build the CC without having to worry about any walls?

[Tango_]

"If you had units there to build the CC, why did you let his three units build their walls instead of just killing them and then continuing to build the CC without having to worry about any walls?"

---> because these walls are built very fast. because you will agreed with m that you cant always looked your cc being build. because i knew that if i kill them, he sent other to built them, then they would have been finished soon.

[Lion.Kanzen]

we need may be introduce conversion/loyalty/capture for building that fix this.

my idea to be relist and abstract at same time

you can take a Turret if you have 5 units vs 0 units garrison (Empty tower) + time may be 1 minute

the Max garrison for standard turret is 5 then: 25 (5x5) vs 5 + time 5 minutes.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Lion.Kanzen

[zzippy]

If wall towers are really "overpowered" ...

Again:

A normal tower costs 100wood + 100 stone, buildtime 150, health 1000

A walltower costs 200 stone, buildtime 40, health 15000

You see any difference?

[FeXoR]

Yes, I see the difference.

And still for me defense towers (those not in walls) has a higher gameplay value (despite the much lower health) because of their longer range. Structures are immobile and can't be build outside owned territory. Having not much range means covering less ground and the enemy decides whether he attacks structures or not. so the decision what happens in the game is on the side of the non-defensive player.

So for me (personally) walls and wall towers are not worth to be build while defense towers and fortresses are.

I'm sorry but I don't have the feeling it's about balancing here at all (Maybe take a deep breath, relax and try to find out what you really mean. Then I may be able to give you more helpful answers)

Edited May 10, 2014 by FeXoR

[Oimat]

Hi everyone

Sanderd17 showed me this thread a moment ago, and asked me what I was thinking about that.

So... let's begining from scratch.

0ad is a RTS : real time strategy. It allows to use different tactics that would allow you to gain advantage over your opponents. Even if, from my point of view, there aren't enough viable tactics (since spartans nerf :'( ).

There are only two ways to win in this game (I repeat, that's not enough). Ok, let's say three. The first one : your opponents never played 0ad before and doesn't know how to get to 50pop in 8 minutes.

The second one : economic boom. Expanding REALLY fast (100pop and phase 2 at minute 10 provides you a huge advantage) allows you to control 70% of the map without a lot of resistance from your opponents. If they are good on the other side of the screen, you will get in trouble, but having 2 cc on minute 12 is the most important thing you can ever do. I never lost against a defensive player, and there is a really single reason for that : they don't scout, they don't expand, and lets you control 70% of the map while they think they are protected with their walls.

The problem with this way of thinking is that quickly, you will have 200pop and 3cc, while the other gets 100pop and 3 lines of walls. Which one is the most interesting to have ? Okay, it will take you longer to kill him... And that's currently my problem in the game, I can't crush easily the ennemy even if I have 300 pop and he has 150. That's a different story. Your CCC is about having fun games that don't last 1hour, and I acknowledge that.

BUT if the opponent spammes champion units, you can do the same too ! Kill your citizen-soldiers and start spamming champions. You will get 100 while he has only 30, and the win if for you. It takes longer to do but... you are saying he gets the metal via markets, no ? That is your fault, not his, to let him expand his second cc, not doing any cc in the middle of the trade route, allowing him to control 50% at least of the map to be able to have profitables markets (I remind you that there's a need of distance between markets).

The second way to win is a way I relly love to do, and alpha123 will agree with me : be unpredictable, do things that your opponent would never think about. Army camps and ships are the same as a back cc built thank to the fog of war and a big battle that allowed you to send 5 guys in his back while he was focusing on the battle.

I don't understand why people don't like ships : they are part of the game and allows you an onther dimension of tactis and strategy. There are a few basics to get protected from ships that send troops on your back : build cc EVERYWHERE, even if there are no ressources there. If you can build a cc near your main town, the ennemy can too. And if the ennemy can, he will. And if he does, you will get in trouble really soon. If you put CC everywhere around you, you won't let place to your ennemy to build a cc near to your town thanks to the territories.

So there are my thoughts : if you don't want ships, take maps whithout water.

If you don't want armycamps, keep a close eye everywhere on the map, and not only on the battle main scene.

For example, when I play, I focus only 30% of the time on the battle scenes. My guys know how to be brave and fight alone whithout me, and that allows me to micro and macro everywhere else I am not expected.

Ah, and to bounce about the walls towers.. as FeXor said, we don't use them. Normal towers have more range, firepower and arrows thanks to the tech. And stone is too precious to be used on walls.

If you really want, I can teach you the basics of sneaky strategies

EDIT : I forgot to give you another advice. Never build your cc in front of ennemy's one, where you can be reached by towers or other stuff... Because you can be counterred by this kind of stuff AND you will be noticed. Always do it 150meters away, inside the fog of war

Edited May 10, 2014 by Oimat

[ba7rain]

Hey zzippy, tango_, its me dmc_ ...

We talked about this in the lobby, and what seems to be the essence of this discussion upon this thread is that the rules you want with the CCC will result in a fast game, especially the way tango plays... And im all for it, due to my circumstances in "real life" i dont have all the time in the world to play 0ad, and i like this clan because i know that if we follow these rules, we could essentially play 2 maybe 3 matches in the space of an hour and a half..give or take...

However,

What Oimat said is exactly my counter argument to my initial paragraph. The things that are available in the game are there to be implemented as its a strategy game.

The thing is, id prefer playing as a CCC simply because of the faster game which makes it more interesting. Sure we have all played against that one guy and im not going to lie but ive done wall spamming too at the start, but hell it gets boring.. others might find it interesting.. when i used to play age of empires, creating walls that emulate Hadrian's or Great Wall of China was what i thought awesome, as it is a realistic strategy (realism seems to be the ethos of this game).

In addition, i respect what one of the guys here said, which relied on the fact that if someone is CCC, do you trust them to follow the rules? Furthermore, it brings up the other debate: does rushing ruin the game? does raiding ruin the game? As much as i hate them, they are strategies. Albeit annoying, they are part of the game. Although i will say first and foremost i have told players no rushing etc.

In conclusion, I know what i wrote is a short summary of the whole thread plus my opinion. I would join CCC because i like these "house rules". Just bare in mind that if we play vs other people we being part of ccc may have just restricted our options or strategies within the game.

Although i can appear to be on the fence about this, a bit like England in/out of EU (for those who enjoy politics) ...but yeah, you asked me what i thought about it, and this is it. Ultimately i might carry on playing with a dmc_ account as well as dmc_(CCC), depending on how i feel that day.

Let me end with this point: All is fair in love and war

Edited May 15, 2014 by ba7rain

[niektb]

Well, maybe it is an idea to add some kind of 'quick game' option (similarly to Empires: Dawn of the Modern World if I recall it correctly) where certain things are sped up, maybe walls removed, and so on.

[bouke]

yes a fast game option would be great. Some sort of "0 A.D. empires conquest"

I think no walls, no trade, no art, units are cheaper ... other suggestions?

bb

[sanderd17]

no art? It will be hard to play without art

[Lion.Kanzen]

no art? It will be hard to play without art

Hahaha the gray empires or invisible if we are counting the meshes.

[bouke]

no art? It will be hard to play without art

Well without walls you can do wthout it.

And still its only a suggestion

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Mythos can you upload how rush a Turtle(defensive wall abuse player in this case)

[tau]

I would like to write here about what i think is the root cause of the walls issue (in game itself). I believe this is not walls being unbalanced but the lag. So rebalancing walls depends on how soon the lag will be fixed.

Why lag is the root cause? I believe this is the only reason why people generally don't play unlimited pop games. From my experience, the smaller pop cap is, the longer time a game takes. Often at some point you clearly see who will win but it takes additional 10-20-30 minutes because of walls and such things. With pop cap you can control 90% of a map, have lots of resources but you are still with max 300 units at your enemy's gates with his 300 behind. And the smaller pop cap is, the less territory you need to reach it.

Then there is that 10 fortresses limit (which i believe has nothing to do with lag but maybe it does?). It works in the same way as pop cap: one player has 10 fortresses on a small piece of land and another has to manage large territory with the same number of fortresses.

As for CCC i haven't made up my mind yet on this thing. There are too many ifs and stuff. Sometimes i want a quick fun game, sometimes a no-rules-at-all game. I think if i want a quick fun game i will ask players to agree on that if you feel like losing and no hope then don't prolong the game by walling and other methods but resign.

[zzippy]

Hi!

First, I want to thank all posters in this thread for their input, thoughts and suggestions.

Instead of socialising in a clan as someone called it or founding a club, following rules yet to be discussed, or creating an own mod without walls aso, it might be an alternative to give the host the responsibility for rules.

The host could name his game in a way (CCC was just a suggestion) so that everybody sees that certain rules had to be accepted for joining that host. Simply, eg:

Tau's 2v2: NoWalls/ships/caravan

Done. Further discussion in pre_game_lobby ?

[FeXoR]

That will still invokes problems:

- If a game is hosted and each player has to ready up, it can be abused by any player by just entering games and not ready up. So that's a bad solution.

- If we assume player "agree" to play a game by entering a game (the consequence of the above) ALL setting have to be seen to all players entering the game (so they see what they are indirectly "agreeing" to).

- Any non implemented rules are 1st not obvious to all players entering a game (and thus the entering player cannot silently agree to them) and 2nd tend to be subjective so... see http://www.wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18624#entry290973

Game rules should work, nothing more, nothing less.

They are better ofc. if they are liked by more PPL (actually playing the game, well, a bit more complicated since the fun * time * person is what I think would count in the end ^^).

If you want other rules, build a fun mod with this rules in place (or try to convince PPL to abide the rules but don't complain if they don't - even if they said so. And this is in the long run more work than making a mod...)

Edited May 16, 2014 by FeXoR

[Sanguivorant]

Game rules are only necessary if the game itself does not allow for fair gameplay, and that is not the case.

- not building any walls

Walls are part of the game, designed for people who want to pursue a strategy other than rushing. It's a viable tactic to wall yourself up. Eventually, walls will be meaningless because they don't win any fight, just prolong inevitability.

- not using caravan between 2 markets/ports

Trade is part of the game as well. On maps where there is a scarcity of wood or other metals, they are vital.

- no ships (ports allowed for wood gathering) on non-naval maps

I understand where you're coming from here, because I had some people make ships to prolong their survival in the game, even though they had no chance of coming back. But hey, people are free to do as they wish.

- no use of roman armycamps

I have never fought with Romans past the village phase, but if an enemy planted an army camp somewhere, then IMO it is my fault for not scouting enough to prevent it from happening.

But if you asked me to play by these conditions, I would be happy to. I just don't want any of these features removed from competitive multiplayer gameplay, because they are all legitimate.