The Council of Modders

[Stan`]

Since water is a prop, you just have to add it or not.

[Romulus]

We'd also have to design a smaller ship variant to the quinquireme.

Ships used in the arena were much smaller than standard war vessels.

And also something that might spice up naval warfare in this game, would be to allow infantry/archers to stand on ships to aid additional attack, plus, giving an option to potentially capture a vessel if your units board the ship and win a battle on it.

[Stan`]

If you manage to do this like in Rome II that would allow with a tweak units on walls

[Romulus]

If you manage to do this like in Rome II that would allow with a tweak units on walls

Yes that's what I meant, the ships are treated like walls in this regard. But we'll do the walls first, that can wait.

[LordGood]

You need to organize your mods, I see a lot of idea tossing but it's all for naught if you don't have an armature to stick them to. You're falling too quickly into specifics.

Lay everything out in a list or graph before discussing something so specific as naval battles in the amphitheater. Otherwise your mods are going to fall apart when you find out things don't match up as expected.

by everything, I mean everything. Core gameplay mechanics, sketches, game mechanics, stats between buildings and units (save the special abilities for later)

after that you want to develop everything simultaneously and at the same rate or you'll lose coherence

[Radagast.]

You are right, we must not lose the overview. As it stands for me my starting points for the purely additive features (like the HybridAI) are clear and can be developed independently.

The boarding of the Collosseum or ships needs to first have the 1x1 resolution pathfinder that Philip already implemented in his mega-patch or what it was called to be brought into the game somehow.

Especially for balancing your advice is very valuable. Thank you. Perhaps there is a program, that may be able to plot such dependencies and interactions (gameplay, stats, ..).. A dynamic tree ... like here?

Something interactive and dynamic would be super ...

@ships:

Good idea nevertheless ... have to tackle it one by one .. how exactly it might be done depends on if and what we change in the C++ base. (at least for seasons we have to change it, I could identify the files for where the code goes to make the units update their textures, .. e.g. putting on light when night falls, putting more and more snow textures on the ground depending on how long it is is already winter, slowing down the units. I doubt that realtime snow falling from the sky will be possible as seen by computing power, so the only chance is to put an overlay animation over the whole camera lens if this works.)

And yet another idea for our mess of ideas. Though I still like your ideas ...

[Romulus]

You need to organize your mods, I see a lot of idea tossing but it's all for naught if you don't have an armature to stick them to. You're falling too quickly into specifics.

Lay everything out in a list or graph before discussing something so specific as naval battles in the amphitheater. Otherwise your mods are going to fall apart when you find out things don't match up as expected.

by everything, I mean everything. Core gameplay mechanics, sketches, game mechanics, stats between buildings and units (save the special abilities for later)

after that you want to develop everything simultaneously and at the same rate or you'll lose coherence

If you have been that observant, you'll notice that a generic repo has been created for precisely this.

And I disagree about the specifics statement. It's important to have specifics and then compile them later conceptually. Specifics are a foundation to work on, and right now we just "tossing" them as you say because this a method of logging them. Essentially, most of discussions hosted here, that are ideas, are pseudo methodology, and later will be converted into the games mechanics.

[niektb]

LordGood is however right that we should not lose overview. But what we are doing now is called 'Brainstorming' (=spamming ideas). Next step is picking good and achievable ideas and decide how to implement them in game.

[Romulus]

I don't see how we can lose overview from specifics.

I will however agree that we need a topography/map to structure these ideas in order to better navigate through ideas. I believe this is what LordGood was referring too.

What I think make dev, onlookers, newly members etc, irate, is that our ideas are here we discuss them and yet there's nothing tangible if you will, or no substance to it.

My message to these individuals is simple:

These things take time, and we are no rush and neither do we have deadlines. Sure we will listen to advice, as it's appreciated amongst the council's members, but at the same token, we engage in our discussions, in an amicably fashion in which we fuse our ideas together to form a foundational basis, where as a team we begin to slowly settle into the mindset, and collectively we are on the same footing in all of our understanding.

Again I as a member of this council have this as a view:

We don't have any deadlines. A and foremost. Therefore we can afford to toss ideas about, because we have the freedom too, not obligated to strict assignments.

Further to this, I see ourselves as a council and as a team, slowly settling, gelling together mentally first, before we work together...

Same state of mind,... Same expectations.

Everything was thought first before it was created.

[niektb]

Just curious of what you think of this. I think I'll write a entity modding tutorial around. (2nd page shouldn't be there)

Entity relations.pdf

Edited March 14, 2014 by niektb

[Stan`]

I think There is something similar in the game wiki ?

[Romulus]

@niektb

That is neat.

I'm actually starting to wonder if we need a sub forum for this Council, just for organizing sake.

Because this is obviously going to increase in size, and logically speaking, clumping everything in one thread is really disorderly in my opinion.

Share your thoughts on this.

feneur has already given me the green light for a sub for my mod I started, but if it were up to me, I'd hold that thought, because A, that mod doesn't have an official name yet, and B, we'd better off as a Council with a space of our own in which to operate.

I don't mind to put my mods sub on hold.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Romulus

[niektb]

Let's see...

Currently in this topic is being talked about the following:

- signatures & logos

- mod launcher

- github repos

- General discussion about CoM and it's aim

- recruitment ideas etc.

So it is indeed steadily growing and it might indeed be useful to create a sub forum. (And then moving the existing subforums, eg 1,000 A.D. into CoM's sub forum, to get a subforum in a subforum?)

Edited March 14, 2014 by niektb

[Romulus]

Let's see...

Currently in this topic is being talked about the following:

- signatures & logos

- mod launcher

- github repos

- General discussion about CoM and it's aim

- recruitment ideas etc.

So it is indeed steadily growing and it might indeed be useful to create a sub forum. (And then moving the existing subforums, eg 1,000 A.D. into CoM's sub forum, to get a subforum in a subforum?)

I do believe that would be a good option.

Essentially, we will need a directory structure, based, on our topics and projects. Like,

/Council of Modders

/1,000 A.D.

/ROME

/Project Management

Recruitment

Members Log (list of personal of whom and what skills?)

Etc..

Etc.

/Announcements

/General Discussion & Ideas

Signatures & logos

/Art Dev

/Gen Dev

Mod launcher

Git, repos

Anything else I'm forgetting?

See, the problem with an elaborate directory tree, is it becomes tedious to navigate through.

The /*Dev directories are great to handle tasks for mods, temporally being generic in dev phase.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Romulus

[Radagast.]

Well done Niek, this [pdf file] will be useful for creating the directory structure for standalone mods. Even though I plan to even support all files mixed and in one folder in a archive file (zip, tar.gz, ...). The files for standalone mods mostly can be put into the correct folders automatically.

It's a bit unlucky in pyrogenesis that props are treated separately. In the Rogue Republic Mod they tested entity on entity and it worked to put any object as a prop on any other. Even the correct animations are played - but it's loosing its independence. It's tied too tightly to the main actor. Nevertheless it's a really nice gameengine, it's difficult enough to make it even that far as it currently is.

I just mention it because I saw the prop folder in your nice pdf file. Cool, today we made two tutorials. Me the 0AD JavaScript Blizzard Start for UNIX and you the entity one. We will make things happen. It has already begun.

Keep up the work, colleagues, I'm backing your efforts, ask if I can lend a hand.

Edit: Missed a lot of posts.

@niek: The AI was also talked about [in this thread]. Among other things. Really one big chunk. Also ideas that belong to several mods was talked about (mainly by me, my fault!).

I think a subforum in a subforum is a not good. Let's keep Mod fora like they are, not? The Council is for organizing the mods and would indeed be cool as a parallel forum.

Don't member skills go into the signatures? Should keep the data-spread as minimal as possible, yet all that is independent should be separate.

@mod organizing:

• We now have GitHub strucuture for the dev.
• Each mod (Mod launcher, Collosseum, ...) could go into its own thread/topic, where we keep the 1st post up to date with a link to the latest release in github (so that we don't have to edit the post over and over again and don't have a version mess [remember: the version is still kept track of in the git! and it could go in the mod's json/xml file too.]).
• Bug reports go either as issues into github (as we the CoM can't use the official trac) or it shall be reported directly in the Mod manager, Campaigning, Colloseum, .. thread.

At least this will keep the overhead at a min for the beginning.

I don't mind to put my mods sub on hold.

Agreed. It's superfluous currently as I'm occupied with more generic features/mods currently.

For a more up to date version, see: -> CoM - Collection of Ideas <-

Old list: (kept for readability and authenticity of this thread only)

Legend : WIP JavaScript JavaScript&C++ C++ Low priority Upcoming

• HybridAI (purely additivie ontop of wraitii's tremendous efforts, introduces subdueing other civs and allow for civil wars or rebellion, among others, see below),
• Campaigning mod,
• Collosseum (gladiators, battle reenactments),
• Mod manager patch,
• Supply lines,
• Capturing mod (slaves, btw. you are right, this essentially is a selection change, can also change the model once captured, though continuing the old activity when captured will make trouble ... but that stop of activity is even desired for capturing),
• Coralling/herding mod,
• Mercenaries mod,
• Seasons patch,
• Night/day mod/patch,
• Units on walls workaround (if the 1x1 pathfinder finds its way, where is Philip, we need this guy back in 0AD).
• Moving from ship to ship,
• Battle on ship,
• Ships ramming each other causes damage,
• Weather (especially crucial in naval battles and in winter as your siege structures might get stuck in the snow while crossing the mountains),
• Allow construction of bridges (using entity on wall workaround too),
• Construction of eye-candy objects (e.g. fences, trees, ..),
• Animal reproduction (objects reproducing itself, at first simply following e.g. fibonacci),
• Units on/in trees,
• Entity on entity,
• Special units, like treasure guards or standard bearers whose standard may be captured by enemies,
• Unit variation (official 0AD team already working on this),
• Minimal unit scale/size variation (not easy to do),
• More friction between units/armies in battle,
• Constitution/stamina,
• Children (growing with time, has to be logarithm or at least saturating to prevent ever lasting growing - related to unit scale/size variation),
• School/teaching,
• Time (comes with Hybrid AI),
• Aging units,
• Uphill movement deccelerates, downhill makes entities accelerate,
• Introduction of Moral attribute mod,
• Loyalty attribute,
• Sympathy attribute,
• Cavalry rework to allow for more realism: moral effect, no deep penetration into enemy lines,
• Changing of weapons,
• Limited ammunition,
• Collecting of weapons/objects (inventar, related to entity on entity and prop system),
• Using objects as ammunition, e.g. allow slingers to collect stones from the ground, arrows from the battlefields, put it in the ox cart and send it somewhere to unload it ...
• Rework armour system [units get wounded quickly once the armour is damaged or did not withstand the force of the enemy thrust],
• Commander system (goes with the Hybrid semi-self-learning AI),
• Goods/resources represented as objects (low priority),
• Trigger mod (related to campaigning mod: a trigger on the map for building a storyline, this trigger needs to allow being registered within AIs/Players too. e.g. if you reach this fjord/bay, then this should trigger/dispatch a message to an AI to rais e alarm. Just as an example.).
• Unit will use resources (food). The more units, the more difficult to feed, making the population cap superfluous. The same is valid for animals.
• Reproduction but nothing to eat means famines and less births (can't be protected because parents have to search the whole day for food).
• Erosion of entities. => Houses that are closer less damage but units move slower.
• Paths, roads, and streets grow if units pass this way often or if the mayor/AI decides to
• construct roads.
• Aquaduct water transportation system.
• Digging through Mountains and Earth. You may build tunnels if you are besieged and have run out of food.
• History visualisation (like battle reenactment) and simulation.

Long list, but I like it. Did I forget anything?

What we see is that besides the Colloseum and the configuration/content files for The Tied to Roman Mod currently is only the standard bearers, Senate to configure the Hybrid AI for the ROME mod, almost all we're working on is not really currently. We will not start posting required unit lists too soon, won't we? If we do so, then a subforum for Rome might be useful, but I think we can leave the artists the freedom to create whatever they wish.

I fully agree that the Council of Modders currently is much more important. So I back your opinion, Romulus.

Good night.

attribute

Edited March 19, 2014 by Hephaestion

[Radagast.]

*bump* edited: added detailed list of our ideas and plans. hope I can delete this bump post ... The and treasure guards we can realize as mini civ, perhaps in combination with triggers. Perhaps need to add some logic to the AI to defend treasures more vigorously. If we only make half of those features happen, then .

[Lion.Kanzen]

Well done Niek, this will be useful for creating the directory structure for standalone mods. Even though I plan to even support all files mixed and in one folder in a archive file (zip, tar.gz, ...). The files for standalone mods mostly can be put into the correct folders automatically.

It's a bit unlucky in pyrogenesis that props are treated separately. In the Rogue Republic Mod they tested entity on entity and it worked to put any object as a prop on any other. Even the correct animations are played - but it's loosing it's independence. It's tied too tightly to the main actor. Nevertheless it's a really nice gameengine, it's difficult enough to make it even that far as it currently is.

I just mention it because I saw the prop folder in your nice pdf file. Cool, today we made two tutorials then, me the 0AD JavaScript Blizzard Start for UNIX and you the entity one. We will make things happen. It has already begun.

Keep up the work, colleagues, I'm backing your efforts, ask if I can lend a hand. Edit: Missed a lot of posts.@niek: The AI was also talked about. Among other things. Really one big chunk. Also ideas that belong to several mods was talked about (mainly by me, my fault!).

I think a subforum in a subforum is a not good. Let's keep Mod fora like they are, not? The Council is for organizing the mods and would indeed be cool as a parallel forum.

Don't member skills go into the signatures? Should keep the data-spread as minimal as possible, yet have all that is independent should be separate.@mod organizing:

• We now have GitHub strucuture for the dev.
• Each mod (Mod launcher, Collosseum, ...) could go into its own thread/topic, where we keep the 1st post up to date with a link to the latest release in github (so that we don't have to edit the post over and over again and don't have a version mess [remember: the version is still kept track of in the git! and it could go in the mod's json/xml file too.]).
• Bug reports go either as issues into github (as we the CoM can't use the official trac) or it shall be reported directly in the Mod manager, Campaigning, Colloseum, .. thread.

At least this will keep the overhead at a min for the beginning.

Agreed. It's superfluous currently as I'm occupied with more generic features/mods currently.

Legen d : WIP JavaScript JavaScript&C++ C++ Low priority Upcoming

• HybridAI (purely additivie ontop of wraitii's tremendous efforts, introduces subdueing other civs and allow for civil wars or rebellion, among others, see below),
• Campaigning mod,
• Collosseum (gladiators, battle reenactments),
• Mod manager patch,
• Supply lines,
• Capturing mod (slaves, btw. you are right, this essentially is a selection change, can also change the model once captured, though continuing the old activity when captured will make trouble ... but that stop of activity is even desired for capturing),
• Coralling/herding mod,
• Mercenaries mod,
• Seasons patch,
• Night/day mod/patch,
• Units on walls workaround (if the 1x1 pathfinder finds its way, where is Philip, we need this guy back in 0AD).
• Moving from ship to ship,
• Battle on ship,
• Ships ramming each other causes damage,
• Weather (especially crucial in naval battles and in winter as your siege structures might get stuck in the snow while crossing the mountains),
• Allow construction of bridges (using entity on wall workaround too),
• Construction of eye-candy objects (e.g. fences, trees, ..),
• Animal reproduction (objects reproducing itself, at first simply following e.g. fibonacci),
• Units on/in trees,
• Entity on entity,
• Special units, like treasure guards or standard bearers whose standard may be captured by enemies,
• Unit variation (official 0AD team already working on this),
• Minimal unit scale/size variation (not easy to do),
• More friction between units/armies in battle,
• Constitution/stamina,
• Children (growing with time, has to be logarithm or at least saturating to prevent ever lasting growing - related to unit scale/size variation),
• School/teaching,
• Time (comes with Hybrid AI),
• Aging units,
• Uphill movement deccelerates, downhill makes entities accelerate,
• Introduction of Moral attribute mod,
• Loyalty attribute,
• Sympathy attribute,
• Cavalry rework to allow for more realism: moral effect, no deep penetration into enemy lines,
• Changing of weapons,
• Limited ammunition,
• Collecting of weapons/objects (inventar, related to entity on entity and prop system),
• Using objects as ammunition, e.g. allow slingers to collect stones from the ground, arrows from the battlefields, put it in the ox cart and send it somewhere to unload it ...
• Rework armour system [units get wounded quickly once the armour is damaged or did not withstand the force of the enemy thrust],
• Commander system (goes with the Hybrid semi-self-learning AI),
• Goods/resources represented as objects (low priority),
• Trigger mod (related to campaigning mod: a trigger on the map for building a storyline, this trigger needs to allow being registered within AIs/Players too. e.g. if you reach this fjord/bay, then this should trigger/dispatch a message to an AI to rais e alarm. Just as an example.).

Long list, but I like it. Did I forget anything?

What we see is that besides the Colloseum and the configuration/content files for The Tied to Roman Mod currently is only the standard bearers, Senate to configure the Hybrid AI for the ROME mod, almost all we're working on is not really currently. We will not start posting required unit lists too soon, won't we? If we do so, then a subforum for Rome might be useful, but I think we can leave the artists the freedom to create whatever they wish.

I fully agree that the Council of Modders currently is much more important. So I back your opinion, Romulus.

Good night.

attribute

Excellent we need give some order our mutual task. The mod launcher is a element that join all mod teams. Remover we are here to help each other. A successful a single our mods is won for all 0 a.D fans.

[Romulus]

@Hephaestion

I'll recap on your post later when I have time

@niektb

Let's decide on a sub forum directory structure, so I can go present it to feneur.

That's mod subs, CoM folders everything. Have a look what I posted above, and let me know if I should add any dirs.

[niektb]

@Hephaestion

I'll recap on your post later when I have time

@niektb

Let's decide on a sub forum directory structure, so I can go present it to feneur.

That's mod subs, CoM folders everything. Have a look what I posted above, and let me know if I should add any dirs.

You might want to merge some stuff since there are a lot of directories right now:

I was thinking of the following structure:

Main CoM forum

project forums (in which everything project related is discussed)

/1,000 A.D.

/Aristeia

/ROME (Or any final name)

/General

Topics:

- general discussion and ideas

- announcements

- FAQ

- recruitment

/Game Dev

Topics:

- Bug reports

- Programming tasks tracking

- technical discussion

/Art Dev

Topics:

- Art task tracking

- Fan art

/Project Managment

Topics:

- Recruitment

- Signatures & Logos

- repos

Still I don't say this is the best way to do so, but it's just an idea.

[thamlett]

Ok, so I finally added the right date to the sig.. lol

Sorry I took so long, I totally forgot about it till Thursday night

So here they are:

and shrunk:

@Lion

do you know how to add the icon you are working on so that it can go just below our name and everything (like the WFG people)?

If not, I can just include on the plaque or have it as a separate signature.

[niektb]

Well done, Thamlett!

[sanderd17]

@Lion

do you know how to add the icon you are working on so that it can go just below our name and everything (like the WFG people)?

screenshot.6.png

If not, I can just include on the plaque or have it as a separate signature.

That's something reserved for approved team members (or donators). Since I guess the CoM will be open for everyone (without approval), I don't think it will be possible to set that image.

We also have no rights to change the image, only the forum maintainers can.

[feneur]

• Mod manager patch,

A mod manager should definitely be included in the main game, but that does of course not mean that you can't implement it. Please do discuss it a bit in the forums first though so it can be done well/work even for non-CoM mods.

• Capturing mod (slaves, btw. you are right, this essentially is a selection change, can also change the model once captured, though continuing the old activity when captured will make trouble ... but that stop of activity is even desired for capturing),

General capturing should be included in the main game, but there might certainly be aspects of adapting it to the slaves concept.

• Coralling/herding mod,

Are you talking about something different from the corralling/herding that will be included in the main game?

• Ships ramming each other causes damage,

Should probably be included in the main game, but that's of course not to say that you/modders can't work on it.

• Minimal unit scale/size variation (not easy to do),

I think Sander is looking into something along those lines, so perhaps it will be included. That's certainly not a promise though as he's just experimenting with related things at this moment.

• Trigger mod (related to campaigning mod: a trigger on the map for building a storyline, this trigger needs to allow being registered within AIs/Players too. e.g. if you reach this fjord/bay, then this should trigger/dispatch a message to an AI to rais e alarm. Just as an example.).

Triggers will most likely be included in the main game (there is a patch for it), so no need to do a mod just to include triggers. Might still be something to think of as new features added by mods might need new triggers.

We also have no rights to change the image, only the forum maintainers can.

That's a very wide statement Who are the "we" who can't change it? I certainly can (But yeah, it's not something everyone can do. That's very true, I really just mean that "we" as in WFG certainly can )

[Radagast.]

A mod manager should definitely be included in the main game, but that does of course not mean that you can't implement it. Please do discuss it a bit in the forums first though so it can be done well/work even for non-CoM mods.

I will take this into account. As it's planned, it should be capable of detecting which file should go into which folder, so hopefully it'll not be CoM mod specific.

• Capturing mod (slaves, btw. you are right, this essentially is a selection change, can also change the model once captured, though continuing the old activity when captured will make trouble ... but that stop of activity is even desired for capturing),

General capturing should be included in the main game, but there might certainly be aspects of adapting it to the slaves concept.

All our mods try to be additive. The capturing is already allowed by our engine (owner changed message/event), so I guess all the rest can be done in JavaScript, making it easy to test if a Mod fulfills all requirements to be adopted as official capturing functionality.

Are you talking about something different from the corralling/herding that will be included in the main game?

Not yet possible to say. The goal is the same, the way to it might be different.

• Ships ramming each other causes damage,

Should probably be included in the main game, but that's of course not to say that you/modders can't work on it.

That's good news. Naval battles in general will hopefully benefit from mods.

• Minimal unit scale/size variation (not easy to do),

I think Sander is looking into something along those lines, so perhaps it will be included. That's certainly not a promise though as he's just experimenting with related things at this moment.

That comes unexpected. No matter the outcome, any trials and experiments are highly welcome.

Triggers will most likely be included in the main game (there is a patch for it), so no need to do a mod just to include triggers. Might still be something to think of as new features added by mods might need new triggers.

Oh, there is a patch for it. Thank you for pointing out. Time will tell which new triggers we should work on. Will have a look on the patch and wait for its inclusion then. (no rush) Thanks for your input.

[Romulus]

@niektb

This:

Main CoM forum

project forums (in which everything project related

is discussed)

/1,000 A.D.

/Aristeia

/ROME (Or any final name)

/Announcements

/General

Topics:

- general discussion and ideas

- FAQ

- recruitment

/Game Dev

Topics:

- Bug reports

- Programming tasks tracking

- technical discussion

/Art Dev

Topics:

- Art task tracking

- Fan art

/Project Managment

Topics:

- Recruitment

- Signatures & Logos

- repos

Looks alright. Except, that I'd added /Announcements as a main dir. I don't think it should be classified under a general listing, as this dir will harbor important/crucial notices for the whole CoM. Also it's just more visible.

But if that's alright and we both agree, I will present it to feneur.

For the Rome mod, the official name will have to wait. I think it will take a good amount of time to think it through, to choose a good name for it.

Because that mod is quite special, remember, 0 A.D. started as Rome mod, this one I like to think of it becoming a sister to it, though the original Rome at war has not died, but retired into a full bloom of a total new game and that's where she is currently.

This mod will be her "posh" sister in heels and in a beautiful silky red dress

Edited March 15, 2014 by Romulus