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Check it out, how bout dah.

+1 Coincidentally thought to check up today, the progress here is incredible. You all deserve a massive congrats! Great work.

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31 minutes ago, Zeta1127 said:

The Catapults seem to get struck trying to move through an open gate, and the gate won't close when garrisoned.

First part must be the gate is a bit small for catapults,

Second part is a bug in the game engine, that prevents to have garisonning as well as gate anims. #2679

Edited by stanislas69
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Hi. I would like to port the Han to Delenda Est with your permission. This means I will need to adjust them to make them compatible with DE gameplay. They'll use the Mauryans' Buddha statue for their Cult Statue for now, and I'll give them at least 2 mercenaries for the merc camp. If I would add them to DE I would also like to come up with 2 more heroes and fill out their champion roster. Does this sound okay to you? Thoughts?

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Well, I'd like to just start with the Han first. lol. I'll call them Chinese for now, because I think most players will understand that better than "Han". For instance, the reason the Achaemenids are called "Persians."

 

Later, if there's another Chinese or Persian faction added, then they can be "Chinese (Han)" and "Persians (Achaemenids)", similar to how I do Romans (Principates) and Romans (Republicans)..

 

Anyone else have thoughts or objections?

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16 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Well, I'd like to just start with the Han first. lol. I'll call them Chinese for now, because I think most players will understand that better than "Han". For instance, the reason the Achaemenids are called "Persians."

Later, if there's another Chinese or Persian faction added, then they can be "Chinese (Han)" and "Persians (Achaemenids)", similar to how I do Romans (Principates) and Romans (Republicans)..

Anyone else have thoughts or objections?

+1 for me.

I can trace back from the source that it was called "Celtic" faction before they were split up. And I can assume that there was only one "Greek" faction, before they were split up. And the "Iberians" are presently called that since there are plans to split that one up as well.

If I was to make any objection, I'll go with the weak "How about the Mauryans?"

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17 minutes ago, sphyrth said:

+1 for me.

I can trace back from the source that it was called "Celtic" faction before they were split up. And I can assume that there was only one "Greek" faction, before they were split up. And the "Iberians" are presently called that since there are plans to split that one up as well.

If I was to make any objection, I'll go with the weak "How about the Mauryans?"

I call the Mauryans the "Indians" in Delenda Est, already. ;) Also, the Ptolemies are called "Egyptians."

 

EDIT: I've toyed with calling the Greek factions Greeks (Athenians), Greeks (Spartans), etc.

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
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55 minutes ago, LordGood said:

Perhaps you ought to wait for the Han's completion first,

Well, let's get on it! ;)

 

EDIT: Just downloaded the Terra Magna mod from github. It is quite playable. Lots of errors when both TM and DE are enabled of course, but no matter. If we can get the 3rd hero in there, maybe move the crossbow units to the merc camp?, and get a wonder modeled, I could get these guys compatiblized with DE in the course of a weekend. When A22 debuts, I cross-promote Terra Magna when I release DE-A22 by highlighting the Chinese included in DE and point to TM, which includes an additional civ not available in DE.

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
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One theory, supported by unearthed eaves-tiles and carved bricks of Han Dynasty, is that the temple was built during the Northern Zhou Dynasty, by Emperor Huan and also by Emperor Ling of the Eastern Han Dynasty. The literature record indicates that during Northern Wei Dynasty, Famen Temple already existed on a quite large scale. However, Buddhism was greatly suppressed in Emperor Wu's years of Northern Zhou Dynasty, and Famen Temple was almost completely destroyed. After establishment of Sui Dynasty, Buddhism was venerated, and Famen Temple was rebuilt, although it couldn't be recovered to its heyday in Northern Wei Dynasty. Its name was changed to Cheng Shi Dao Chang (成实道场), and soon it merged with nearby Baochang Temple (宝昌寺), and became a temple-owned farm.

 

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MAGNIFICENT AND SOLEMN: The Zhongyue Temple, built at the foot of the Songshan Mountain in the Han Dynasty (202 B.C.-A.D. 220), was the earliest base of Taoist activities in China (CFP)

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Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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And we have big monster.

Weiyang Palace (simplified Chinese未央宫traditional Chinese未央宮pinyinWèiyāng Gōng) was a palace complex, located near the city of Chang'an (modern-day Xi'an). Built in 200 BC at the request of Han Gaozu, under the supervision of his prime minister Xiao He, it served as the administrative centre and imperial residence of the Western Han Dynasty, as well as the Western Jin dynasty and several other regimes during the Northern and Southern Dynasties.

The palace survived until the Tang dynasty when it was burnt down by marauding invaders en route to Tang Chang'an. This was the largest palace ever built on Earth, covering 4.8 km² (1,200 acres), which is 6.7 times the size of the current Forbidden City, or 11 times the size of the Vatican City.[1]

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The governmental center can be used as wonder

The Hans indeed lack champions (I recall there were some suggestions around in this forum) and what's problematic too is that the unit roster at the barracks is too broad. I've launched an idea of a Border Fortress (including a reference for a 3D model) to move some units to balance that (also somewhere in this forum)

I disagree with moving the crossbow to the mercenary camp. According to our research, the crossbow was one of the most commonly used weapons (I need to look up for some sources if you want proof)

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2 minutes ago, niektb said:

The governmental center can be used as wonder

The Hans indeed lack champions (I recall there were some suggestions around in this forum) and what's problematic too is that the unit roster at the barracks is too broad. I've launched an idea of a Border Fortress (including a reference for a 3D model) to move some units to balance that (also somewhere in this forum)

I disagree with moving the crossbow to the mercenary camp. According to our research, the crossbow was one of the most commonly used weapons (I need to look up for some sources if you want proof)

Is very very common like the velite for romans ( republican).

why not Cataphracts like cavalry? Like they try to use from nomads.

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The Han Dynasty.  The Han army was the first Ancient Chinese army that truely embraced cavalry warfare to its maximum.  Due to constant incurisons by the Xiongnu/Huns in the North, the Emperor Wudi realized that, to defeat the Xiongnu, a formidable and mobile cavalry force must be trained.  Throughout the reign of Wudi, the Han army grew and so did its cavalry.  The Han cavalry did not have cataphracts, and primarily relied on speed and mobility.  Unlike their Roman counterparts, Han cavalrymen did not wear metal helmets, and wore fairly little armor.  Han cavalry was geared towards warfare with nomadic groups, and speed was essence.  The defeat of the Xiongnu by generals Wei Qing and Huo Qubing, and the subsequent expansion of the Han Empire into Central Asia, could not have been realized without its extremely mobile cavalry force.

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7801

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Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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 http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?610314-The-Roman-Empire-vs-Han-Dynasty-China/page6

enjoy this topic.

http://tubagbohol.mikeligalig.com/history/discussion-on-the-ancient-asian-armies/

Spoiler

The Military of Imperial China


The Qin, under Qin Shi Huan, ushered in the Imperial Era of Chinese history. Although the Qin dynasty only ruled for only 15 years it set the stage for a centralized Chinese government. The institutions Qin established would last over a thousand years, serving many dynasties.

The Qin created China’s first professional army, replacing the unreliable peasants with career soldiers and replacing the aristocratic military leaders with proven professional generals. Taking this a step further, Qin actually stripped the lands of these aristocrats, making the fiefs loyal directly to him. Qin’s centralized, authoritarian state become the norm for China. Under the Qin and following Han Dynasties, troops conquered territories in all directions and established China's frontiers near their locations today. China was now unified and entered the golden age for Chinese history.[

Qin army formations and tactics can be gleaned from the Terracotta Army of Qin Shi Huang found in the tomb of the First Emperor. Apparently, Qin wanted to take an army with him to the afterworld and settled on having a life size army reproduced for him out of terracotta. The formations revealed that light infantry were first deployed as shock troops and skirmishers. They were followed by the main body of the army, consisting of heavy infantry. Cavalry and chariots are positioned behind the heavy infantry, but they were probably used for flanking or charging the weakened armies of the other warring states.

The Qin and Han militaries used the most advanced weapons of the time. The sword, first introduced during the chaos of the Warring States Period became a favorite weapon. The Qin began producing stronger iron swords. Crossbows were also improved, becoming more powerful and accurate then even the compound bow. Another Chinese innovation allowed a crossbow to be rendered useless simply by removing two pins, preventing enemies from capturing a working model. The stirrup was adopted at this time, a seemingly simple but very useful invention was also implemented. Stirrups gave cavalry men greater balance and crucially allowed them to leverage the weight of the horse in a charge, without being knocked off.

During the Qin Dynasty and the succeeding, Han Dynasty, an old threat returned with a vengeance. The “Horse Barbarians” to the North had formed new confederations, such as the Xiongnu . The warriors grew up in the saddle and were unmatched in their skill with the powerful compound bow, able to consistently shoot a man in the eye at a full gallop. These nomadic warriors used their mobile mounted archers in large, quick raids into the settled lands of China. They would then retreat after creating much devastation and taking all to the loot they could carry back into the steppes before the infantry heavy Chinese military was unable to react.

In order to counter the threat from the nomadic invaders the Qin began construction of the Great Wall. The idea of creating a long static barrier to prevent incursions was revisited by Chinese rulers and construction continued up to the Ming Dynasty (1368 AD- 1662 AD). The walls and fortification would be an astonishing 5,500 miles long, when counting all of its branches. However, the wall ultimately failed in its goal to keep the barbarians at bay.

The Qin and succeeding dynasties had more success using a combination of bribes and diplomacy. This strategy focused on keeping the nomads divided, the Chinese would bribe a faction to fight another and even assist one faction in its war against an enemy tribe or coalition. However, the Han took a more aggressive approach. They used massive cavalry armies, a new development in Chinese warfare to crush the tribes on their home territory. The cavalry armies proved to be formidable, conquering large areas of Mongolia, Korea and Central Asia.

The Chinese conquest of Central Asia had put an end to the harassment by nomadic tribes in the area. This allowed for the linking Chinese and Persian trade routes. In a 79 AD ribbon cutting ceremony at Chang'an Emperor Wu cut a silk ribbon with a pair of gold scissors to officially open the Silk Road. (Note, this is the only place in the world that the ceremony has ever been so much as mentioned and that no other evidence for it exists). Products could now move from China to the Roman Empire and the ruling Chinese dynasties profited greatly from the silk trade.

The Han had broken the Xiongnu, sending them fleeing to the West. It is theorized that their ancestors emerged as the Huns on the other side of central Asia four hundred years later. However, other nomadic tribes were quick to fill the power vacuum. The victorious Chinese armies now had to hold the conquered territories and there were frequent revolts against Chinese rule.

Despite suffering occasional defeats, the Chinese maintained a strong military throughout most of their imperial history. After the fall of the Han Dynasty the army became increasingly feudal, this process was accelerated during the invasions of the Wu Hu during the 4th century as the central government became more dependent on the provinces for military power. Wu Hu, meaning ‘five barbarian tribes’ took control of Northern china and feudalism continued through the following Southern and Northern Dynasties period (420–589). During the following Sui and Tang dynasties ((589 AD - 907 AD) Chinese forces were able to reunite the country and restore the frontiers to where they where during the Han dynasty, ushering in a second imperial golden age. The military success of Sui and Tang, like the earlier Han, was the use of large cavalry forces. The powerful cavalry units combined with the defensive capabilities of their heavy infantry and firepower of their crossbowmen resulted in the Chinese army dominating its opposition during this period. The professionalism of the military was also restored and China created its first military academies during this period. However, during the following Song Dynasty the military again weekend as the ruling dynasty felt threatened by the military establishment. Despite this military advancements continued and the Chinese pioneered the next generation of weapons, developing gunpowder weapons such as the fire-lance and grenades. China’s military power eroded under the Song Dynasty, particularly in the critical area of cavalry. Chinese armies soon suffered disastrous defeats at the hands of the Mongols under Kublai Khan (1215–1294 AD). The Mongols were the premiere fighting force of the day, their conquests spanned from China to Europe and the Middle East.

China was then ruled by the Great Khan, Kublai, who foundf the Yuan Dynasty. The Yuan incorporated Chinese gunpowder units into their military, which bring us to the age of fire arms and the end of ancient Chinese warfare. It is worth noting however that Chinese culture was able to do what the military couldn’t, the Yuan Dynasty became Chinese in almost every way.


Reference:
ancientmilitary.com

 

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Not too sure about the fully armoured horse but that is most likely a nomad or one of Cao Cao's guards, cavalry of this type wasn't used by the Han until Cao Cao and even then it would most likely just be the front armour on the horse rather than the back piece of armour. The heavy cavalry used by the Han would actually look more like the very bottom guy.
 

 

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Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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This armor should belong to all senior officers of the Han Military or the Chinese Emperor's guard. Unlike most rank & file soldiers of the period who only had a turban or a leather protective cap for headpro, he wore a metal lamellar helmet, tufted with what looks like Pheasant feathers. According to the book, a color between red and orange robes marked the elite members of the Han-Period Emperor's Imperial Guard, which were called "缇骑" possibly a cavalry formation.
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This armor is that of an average soldier of the Han period whose drawing is based off the Yangjiawan Terra Cotta Army (i.e. The "Mini-Terra Cotta Army" which contained miniatures from the Han Dynasty as opposed to the bigass life-sized ones of the First Qin Emperor's). He Wore a cloth/leather cap/turban. Its not clear if the cuirass possessed a single pauldron/upper arm guard over the left shoulder or it was just a mistake in the part of the sculptors (My Personal theory: cuirass only had a left shoulder guard to aid the use of a shield, commonly held in the left hand with the fighter often presenting his left side, alongside with his shield, to the enemy). 
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Another soldier's armor. This one has two pauldrons/upper arm guards as opposed to the previus soldier. The color of robes indicates elite or professional infantryman status. (Possibly soldiers of the infantry members of the Imperial Guards). On his back he has a badge or plaque of some sort, suspected to indicate his unit and possibly his rank . The experts base this hypothesis on how latter Dynasties having such a practice of unit identification, in which lower ranked troopers had badges at the back while senior officers had badges up front.

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This one is a Cavalryman's Armor, also from the Mini-Terra Cotta Army, probably of the light cavalry variety like horse archers. He has a two-feather He-Guan (Headress?) and, like the regular trooper before him, has a badge/plaque on his back. Variations of this armor shows a large feather back-plumes similar to Polish-Lithuanian Hussars of the late 1600's. The book says that there is hypothesis on the plumes which ranges from the feathers marking out Cavalry Officers (the book says this is unlikely as it will mark them out in the field) to marking out battlefield messengers & runners.
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The following pieces are from the Wei Kingdom and its successor states and eventual winner of the 3 Kingdoms, the Ssu'ma Jin Dynasty period. Now these wouldve likely showed up in the 3 Kingdoms period.

This is a cavalryman's armor of the Wei-Jin period, possibly of the heavy cavalry kind. Also possibly a general's or senior officers armor and is an upgrade of the Han Aristocrat's armor initially shown way up above this thread, he wear's something called "Hundred-Beaten Steel" Armor. The cap shown here is that of an official but most likely he wouldve worn a lamellar helmet too. They also seem to have worn a cap based off the Steppe Nomads that inhabit the northern/western borders of the Wei Kingdom/Jin Dynasty.

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This armor set also marked the first appearance of lamellar faulds/extensive leg armor in the Chinese armor kit, which marked the increasing usage & mastery of cavalry typical of Late Han/3 Kingdoms/Ssu'ma Jin China
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Finally, the armor of the Wei Kingdom/Ssu'ma Jin Dynasty period infantryman. Soldiers of the period seem to now wear a metal helmet and there seems to be a change in the trousers too as long trousers seemed to be favored. 

 

Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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Imperial Guards?
 
Spoiler

For the Han Period, the book presents armor not only from the Yangjiawan find but corroborates it with other discoveries and written material from the Period (i.e. the Senior Officer's armor was based on a 1960's find in a Han-Period Tomb). Compared to Qin Shih Huangdi's detailed Terra Cotta Army, the Yangjiawan Mausoleum's figures were of lesser detail & craftsmanship - the sculptors relied on paint to show armored parts of a soldier for one, which faded slowly in time- so the book's authors had to show it in some other way rather than rely on the figures 100%

 


 

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That said, yes, majority of Han China's troopers are not uniformly armored. The small standing army and the Imperial Guard were obviously well outfitted but since Han Dynasty was quite Feudal, the majority would be troops raised by Provincial Governors and the remaining Feudal Nobles whose provinces'/fief's varying degrees of wealth & resources meant that not all could be possibly armored in the modern steel fashion. Cheaper leather armor would be popular still or in the case of poorer landlords and provinces who prioritized weapons over armor: the soldiers would just be given a shield.

Also

troop type determines whether they wear armor or not, just like everywhere else in the world back then. Some missile troops, skirmishers, menials, squires, and rear-echelon soldiers were given minimal protection.

 

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?688378-Period-Accurate-Armor

 
Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey of Villehardouin View Post
I do like the illustrations you posted myself, though they also do not look much like the terracota army in the photographs. They seem to be affected by the older style terracota army of Qin Shi Huang in their hairstyle and some of the armour.
Not quite. For one thing the soldiers of Qin Shi Huang all wore leather armor while the armor in the Yangjiawan were steel. It's also worthwhile to mention that save for the Imperial Guards of Qin, most armored Qin troopers wear leather armor that only protects their front like an apron.

Furthermore it shouldn't surprise people that the Early Han Dynasty essentially had similar looking equipment with then Qin. People tend to forget that the Qin Dynasty lasted only 15-22 years making it a really recent thing. Wont be surprising if aspects of its equipment & fashion carried over to the Han.
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46 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

@Lion.Kanzen Where is your previous post from ? This kind of reference would have been greatly appreciated for any civilization. Did you make those drawings ?

Read is in the post. No is no my style, so much work for a reference I can do something like that but...I don't work if I'm  not sure somelse can use.

 

 

 

joke... you mean  this.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?688378-Period-Accurate-Armor

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