Fire Technical discussion.

[Lion.Kanzen]

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4973

The community forum must know...

 

Just a copy paste:

No comments on the code necessary - Just a first working version.

 

This adds support for visual status effects ( mostly meant for fire ) by actually just spawning an entity that symbolized the status effect.

 

This has the added benefit that the spawned entity (the "status effect") can attack other entities -> so the fire can spread. (Imagine this in combination with D4771 ... forests could actually be destroyed by a wildfire)

Current problems/ todos / points of thoughts:

 

The fire is spawned as Gaia, which means by nature of attack.js it won't attack any other Gaia units. To solve this one would need to implement a way to force attack any unit.

Note that it's not the attacker specifying which entity is spawned, but the attacked entity. This is necessary 1) for using different size flames for different objects; 2) make this work with stationary as well as moving objects. Note that this also makes it a little bit more complicated.

Is this even something that will actually be used in the vanilla game? Just balance wise? Because with the current implementation, where the fire can actually spread, this would completely shift balance and strategy of the game.

[Obelix]

I like this improvement as well as I like the referenced Tree falling proposal. Thanks for notifying us!

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I would say this is ideal as simply an indicator of something taking fire damage.

1. allowing the fire gaia entities to deal damage and spread to other units is in conflict with the existing role of fire damage. 2 concurrent fire systems would be confusing.

2. Starting a forest fire might sound cool on paper, but remember there is only 1 unit that can do this, and it would be incredibly annoying to destroy all your enemy's forests. Basically griefing on steriods.

3. This kind of damage model for fire (spreads between units, ship, buildings and trees) is quite hard to balance and also hard to reconcile in comparison to other mechanics of the game. It seems out of place in other words.

[Lion.Kanzen]

36 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

allowing the fire gaia entities to deal damage and spread to other units is in conflict with the existing role of fire damage. 2 concurrent fire systems would be confusing

For now the only thing that worries me is the performance.

[Lion.Kanzen]

23 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

This has the added benefit that the spawned entity (the "status effect") can attack other entities -> so the fire can spread. (Imagine this in combination with D4771 ... forests could actually be destroyed by a wildfire)

I don't want to sound like a pyromaniac, but we could have units that throw torches and units that sabotage buildings with fire (the arsonist).equivalent to petard from AoE II.

Never use this unit in AoE 3.

https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Arsonist

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Lion.Kanzen

[Nullus]

I think this would be a great addition, but I think there needs to be a way to put fires out. If there were an easy way to stop fires, balance wouldn't be too much of an issue. Fire would only be an issue for players who don't pay attention to their buildings or put their buildings too close together.

[Lion.Kanzen]

15 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Starting a forest fire might sound cool on paper, but remember there is only 1 unit that can do this, and it would be incredibly annoying to destroy all your enemy's forests. Basically griefing on steriods.

We need more fire units specially for non-Siege Engine factions.

 

 

————————————————————

Related patch.

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4771

 

[Obelix]

New fire brigade units could be needed as well-or as an aura of a hero

[Lopess]

I think it would be simpler to fix the burned building, thus avoiding more complexity.

[Obelix]

And then the workers or working eles take fire as well?

Idea that came to my mind after submitting: Priest could prevent workers from taking fire. Well, this whole workflow would add much complexity.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Obelix
Priests

[Nullus]

I don't think that it should be possible to set organic units on fire, only structures, ships, and siege engines. Bodies are actually quite nonflammable, they won't sustain a fire.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Nullus

[hyperion]

14 minutes ago, Nullus said:

I don't think that it should be possible to set organic units on fire, only structures, ships, and siege engines. Bodies are actually quite nonflammable, they won't sustain a fire.

Flaming pigs would make some sense, but agreed, in the video it looks like punctured oil vats on legs running around.

As for spreading fire, the computational cost for non structures probably isn't cheap either.

[Lion.Kanzen]

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxhRDSmZHLZO3bpSaazILldmVsuwMrcpZB

Fire in another games.

Stronghold Crusader II.

 

fire spreads to weak, flammable buildings.

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

8 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I don't want to sound like a pyromaniac, but we could have units that throw torches and units that sabotage buildings with fire (the arsonist).equivalent to petard from AoE II.

Never use this unit in AoE 3.

https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Arsonist

 

 

 

Speaking of suicide units...

Slave unit in Stronghold Crusader II.

Slaves are cheap mercenaries, who run around carrying only torches, capable of setting enemy buildings on fire. They are defenseless but can cause a lot of damage if left unchecked.

 

The slave's place is not on the battlefield, as their low health and strength means almost instant death from any other troops. They are rather good in raids, attempting to burn and cripple buildings. In numbers, slaves can take on even units in light armor due to the cumulated damage output.

Although slaves see little utility in direct combat, they can assist in sieges by setting off traps and drawing attention, opening a window of opportunity for other troops to close the distance.

 

Slaves are made to make the lives of your enemies miserable - most of the maps in the game won't let them protect their whole bases with a wall (especially Stone Quarries and Iron Mines, very often oases too), meaning that a small group of Slaves can cause some huge resource losses to the enemy. If the enemy is cramping his/her buildings tightly, setting them ablaze can end the whole match - there's nothing more demotivating as watching dozens of buildings burning and being unable to do anything about that.

Slaves are among the frailest units in a player's repertoire, paired with having mediocre combat skills, which severely limits their efficiency. They require a critical mass to operate, and even then, they prove easy prey to ranged units, who can take them off from a distance.

 

https://stronghold.fandom.com/wiki/Slave

 

———

in my case I do not intend to use slaves, or that name.I would use more appropriate names.

 

 

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Speaking of suicide units...

Slave unit in Stronghold Crusader II.

Slaves are cheap mercenaries, who run around carrying only torches, capable of setting enemy buildings on fire. They are defenseless but can cause a lot of damage if left unchecked.

 

The slave's place is not on the battlefield, as their low health and strength means almost instant death from any other troops. They are rather good in raids, attempting to burn and cripple buildings. In numbers, slaves can take on even units in light armor due to the cumulated damage output.

Although slaves see little utility in direct combat, they can assist in sieges by setting off traps and drawing attention, opening a window of opportunity for other troops to close the distance.

 

Slaves are made to make the lives of your enemies miserable - most of the maps in the game won't let them protect their whole bases with a wall (especially Stone Quarries and Iron Mines, very often oases too), meaning that a small group of Slaves can cause some huge resource losses to the enemy. If the enemy is cramping his/her buildings tightly, setting them ablaze can end the whole match - there's nothing more demotivating as watching dozens of buildings burning and being unable to do anything about that.

Slaves are among the frailest units in a player's repertoire, paired with having mediocre combat skills, which severely limits their efficiency. They require a critical mass to operate, and even then, they prove easy prey to ranged units, who can take them off from a distance.

 

https://stronghold.fandom.com/wiki/Slave

 

———

in my case I do not intend to use slaves, or that name.I would use more appropriate names.

 

 

 

 

the fire mechanics are as follows:

A certain area or wooden buildings can be set on flames. Buildings can be set on fire by igniting nearby pitch ditches, spreading boiling oil, the torch from a slave, a grenade from a fire thrower, or a fire ballista's fiery bolt if the building is very low on health. Extended fire may spread on other buildings and locations, with ember sparking up from the source of the heat.

[sternstaub]

23 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Starting a forest fire might sound cool on paper, but remember there is only 1 unit that can do this, and it would be incredibly annoying to destroy all your enemy's forests. Basically griefing on steriods.

Burnt ground could be made more fertile for farming. But that would be a weird workaround, so i have to agree.

Even so, the general idea of having fire and gameplay relevant fire effects in the game is nice, so thanks you for giving your hint on the forums, @Lion.Kanzen 

[Lion.Kanzen]

graphically the fire should be as simple as mythology.

So it does not demand so many graphic resources.

 

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 minutes ago, sternstaub said:

Burnt ground could be made more fertile for farming. But that would be a weird workaround, so i have to agree.

Even so, the general idea of having fire and gameplay relevant fire effects in the game is nice, so thanks you for giving your hint on the forums, @Lion.Kanzen 

Your welcome.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Here I found a video with the original AOM version.

 

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxSMDWN5cCIx4CJ1urFr9yar1j35bUvq70

https://youtu.be/br22e5izGo4b

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

I uploaded the video of the Marder's test

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just now, Lion.Kanzen said:

I uploaded the video of the Marder's test

 

The texture should thicken a little.

I mean go to dark/black texture.

 

 

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

8 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

The texture should thicken a little.

I mean go to dark/black texture.

 

 

 

this is not new to the engine. Carthage already has texture damage.