Yekaterina Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 35 minutes ago, Kampot said: - Game modification which are not publicly available and not possible to integrate to future 0ad version to enhance game play - Modification of game stats Can you give an example of this? 41 minutes ago, Kampot said: Physical hw cheatings / different HW (faster, better mouse, mechanical keyboard...) these nobody considers, but gives huge advantage in response times. Auto-aim, multiclicks... etc.. I am not sure having better quality hardware can count as cheating. Some people need to use mechanical keyboard for their work and they just use the same keyboard to play games. In addition, it's not expensive and everyone can buy these. However, using Linux to play the game does give you an immense advantage over Windows players. 42 minutes ago, Kampot said: Auto-aim, multiclicks I've heard about them being used in shooter games, but I'm not sure how they would become useful in 0AD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossenburg Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 (edited) soon we shall automate everything, sit back and win all games without touching mouse or keyboard Edited March 9, 2023 by rossenburg 1 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 @Atrik I would like to play a 1v1 against you; you use the cheat mod and I will play normally. Let's see who can win Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freagarach Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 (We're still looking for an AI dev.) 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 5 hours ago, chrstgtr said: I stockpile res and then try to overwhealm enemies with greater numbers. That often makes me look like I am floating way more res than I actually am. Because of this, it is not uncommon for me to go from 2-3K in res down to 0 in a very, very short period of time. This is exactly what I do. 4 hours ago, leopard said: live ally is better than dead ally! As long as the ally doesn't resign, they are useful. In a TG yesterday, Acanthis was the border and I was his pocket. DrOrgans and Juarca continuously double raided him and Acanthis' population was maintained at ~40 for the first 12 minutes. I sent him very little resources so that I could max out myself. By 13:00, I was floating much and I sent Acanthis 1000 wood 1000 food and hoped for the best. At ~14:00 I went for a push against DrOrgans; both he and Juarca commited everything to fight me but I still won 1v2 against them because of superior number, more military techs and numerous barracks spamming units. These wouldn't have been possible if I sent my resources away too early. Eventually, I was able to capture DrOrgans' CC in one push, with some help from Acanthis' skirmishers. If Juarca and DrOrgans had been more conservative with their attacks, they would have been able to resist me, at least in a 2v1 situation. The moral of the story is, a seemingly dead ally (especially border) is a good meatshield that wastes the enemies' time. At this point the pocket player should just focus on maxing themselves out and win a 1v2 push at 14:00 instead of sending too much resources to the hopeless border and delaying themselves. It is more important to reach phase 3 and research all techs, so that you can gather extremely quickly and feed all of your allies. 1000 food at 6:00 costs you much more than 1000 food at 13:00. In my case, Acanthis couldn't boom no matter how much resources I send him, because Juarca and DrOrgans just had too many cavalry roaming in his base. @leopard you and NoobDude also did a commentary on a game with me in a similar situation: it was Mr.Dat distracting Vegeta777 and PolarBear meanwhile I boom. Even though the first fight was not successful, being maxed out in techs means I can quickly gather thousands of resources and send them to allies, at the same time regenerating myself quickly. On the other hand, sfxsfx sent his allies resources instead of booming himself, which resulted in him being behind on techs and was destroyed. So chrstgtr has a point, although if the ally just situationally needed some resources to make a few supplementary units or kick start another production centre, he ought to share his floating resources for that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 35 minutes ago, rossenburg said: soon we shall automate everything, sit back and win all games without touching mouse or keyboard First you can automate my boom build order. For simplicity you may use autotrain. But how do you fight? Automatic Dancing!!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopard Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Helicity said: although if the ally just situationally needed some resources to make a few supplementary units or kick start another production centre, he ought to share his floating resources for that. I do agree with what you said Helicity, pocket player is supposed to boom and come with powerful army everything is sensible but I am saying chrstgtr don't share when he can, I do understand the reason behind it he thinks that I am worthless even with recourses. If you agree with him on that point I have nothing to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopard Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Helicity said: being maxed out in techs means I can quickly gather thousands of resources and send them to allie this is exactly he won't do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 42 minutes ago, leopard said: he thinks that I am worthless even with recourses. I don't think you are worthless; in my last few confrontations against you, I took heavy casualties even as Macedonians, so that means you were strong. Regarding Atrik's proGUI mod, I've tried it but I don't think it is on the level of cheating. In fact, the huge stats bar and the no-longer-mini map covered too much of my view area, giving me a disadvantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrstgtr Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 4 hours ago, Kampot said: - Game modification which are not publicly available and not possible to integrate to future 0ad version to enhance game play If I create an AI program that automates the game to ensure that I win every game without having to ever touch my mouse or keyboard is that a "cheat"? If it is a "cheat," can I cure it into "fair play" just by publishing the program? This is an opensource game where anyone can do anything they want with the code and then publish it. Again, I could care less about this mod. But I do dislike the principle. The community as a whole should judge what should and should not be "allowed." Mods shortcut the community's ability to provide input and one person should not be able to unilaterally determine what is and is not allowed in the game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreakfastBurrito_007 Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 4 hours ago, Kampot said: Also any new features usually comes from smart people. It is kind of automation (easing manual repetive tasks) and focus more on strategy. Usually this is how game should evolve. I disagree, RTS games should be based on skill as well as strategy. Aoe2 is more popular than aoe 4 for this reason because aoe4 removed almost all skill in unit movement eco management ect. It is inherently more boring to automate aspects of the game. I am not saying that we should consider @Atrik a cheater, I am saying we need to establish a boundary so that the game remains fun 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreakfastBurrito_007 Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 3 hours ago, Helicity said: Linux to play the game does give you an immense advantage over Windows players. What advantage is this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 17 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said: I disagree, RTS games should be based on skill as well as strategy. https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/0AD_The_Vision#Snares 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreakfastBurrito_007 Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 @Stan` that's a good point about the snares. I would argue that there is a spectrum and that skill elements should neither be eliminated nor overcome strategy as the basis of the game. There is coming up with a strategy and then executing the strategy and both should be important. In AoE 4 the player's strategy is nearly totally defined by what building they choose to age up with, which makes for highly formulaic gameplay. I am worried that if we add enough automated mechanics to the game, then we will lose the execution of strategies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 1 hour ago, chrstgtr said: If I create an AI program that automates the game to ensure that I win every game without having to ever touch my mouse or keyboard is that a "cheat"? If it is a "cheat," can I cure it into "fair play" just by publishing the program? This is an opensource game where anyone can do anything they want with the code and then publish it. Again, I could care less about this mod. But I do dislike the principle. The community as a whole should judge what should and should not be "allowed." Mods shortcut the community's ability to provide input and one person should not be able to unilaterally determine what is and is not allowed in the game. It's hard to make cheat mods, because even though editing the program is trivial, any difference in stats will result in OOS errors. This includes revealing information about the enemy, editing seemingly irrelevant stats like vision range. It's also not quite possible to see enemy chats because they are peer to peer and the message was never passed to you. If you can tell me any cheating idea, I can show you why it's not feasible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alre Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 1 hour ago, chrstgtr said: If I create an AI program that automates the game to ensure that I win every game without having to ever touch my mouse or keyboard is that a "cheat"? If it is a "cheat," can I cure it into "fair play" just by publishing the program? This is an opensource game where anyone can do anything they want with the code and then publish it. Again, I could care less about this mod. But I do dislike the principle. The community as a whole should judge what should and should not be "allowed." Mods shortcut the community's ability to provide input and one person should not be able to unilaterally determine what is and is not allowed in the game. it is believed that chess engines (which can do what you describe against even the strongest players) have pushed upwards the quality of the games played between humans, and even popularized the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossenburg Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 42 minutes ago, chrstgtr said: If I create an AI program that automates the game to ensure that I win every game without having to ever touch my mouse or keyboard is that a "cheat"? If it is a "cheat," can I cure it into "fair play" just by publishing the program? It Will be a little hard to prevent these kind of things as far as there's nothing like anticheat. Most top players that knows coding do have scripts they use for their own advantage and nobody knows cause they never shared or published. It's also a bit hard to say this mod is a cheat because it doesn't really make any prior changes just like autoqueue helping automate certain tasks 46 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said: I am not saying that we should consider @Atrik a cheater, I am saying we need to establish a boundary so that the game remains fun I agree. But if someone have a cheat and hasn't made it known, nobody will know. that's my point. There are some modifications like reducing prices, faster training, faster units, increasing tower ranges etc that should be considered cheating and luckily these kind of modifications will only result in OSS. Aside that, this mod doesn't really make any difference like doing it manually because you are the one to set which units should be autotrained or something like that. I just checked it recently without paying much attention to it. Imagine @Atrik didn't post it here at all. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrstgtr Posted March 9, 2023 Report Share Posted March 9, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, alre said: it is believed that chess engines (which can do what you describe against even the strongest players) have pushed upwards the quality of the games played between humans, and even popularized the game. Sure. But that doesn't mean someone using a program against an opposing player without consent isn't cheating. I'm just trying to say the community as a whole should determine what is and is not appropriate when it comes to automating gameplay. Again, no one is trying to say that @Atrik or @Mentula are cheaters or that the particular mod in question actually is a true cheat. This thread is so off the rails. @Atrik came trying to help other people and we got this mess. Welcome to forums. Edited March 9, 2023 by chrstgtr 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atrik Posted March 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2023 I see a lot of people take cheats at heart when I already had doubts on player removing fog or displaying hidden data (meant to be hidden). Nothing in life is too serious but on the cheat spectrum that's clearly a cheat, it's up to the player to feel like a sucker if he exploit an open source game. To @chrstgtr point actually, my unfinished mod has limitations mainly because you can't customize behaviors enough. (every "auto" features like tribute and research) But the training thing just empower the player to manage much easier army composition. This feature could really be just another way to think the GUI. (Or a attempt to it). 12 hours ago, Kampot said: It is kind of automation (easing manual repetive tasks) and focus more on strategy. Usually this is how game should evolve. I think like Kampot. If the GUI make thing easier, to funnier it is to actually take skill in other aspects of the game then being just really fast clicker. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreakfastBurrito_007 Posted March 10, 2023 Report Share Posted March 10, 2023 9 hours ago, Yekaterina said: If you can tell me any cheating idea, I can show you why it's not feasible. How about making archercav that know when to run away before getting damaged. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted March 10, 2023 Report Share Posted March 10, 2023 5 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said: How about making archercav that know when to run away before getting damaged. Unless it's somehow handled by the GUI this would go OOS 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freagarach Posted March 10, 2023 Report Share Posted March 10, 2023 6 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said: How about making archercav that know when to run away before getting damaged. https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/GettingStartedReinforcementLearning#Scenario 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kampot Posted March 10, 2023 Report Share Posted March 10, 2023 20 hours ago, chrstgtr said: If I create an AI program that automates the game to ensure that I win every game without having to ever touch my mouse or keyboard is that a "cheat"? If it is a "cheat," can I cure it into "fair play" just by publishing the program? This is an opensource game where anyone can do anything they want with the code and then publish it. Again, I could care less about this mod. But I do dislike the principle. The community as a whole should judge what should and should not be "allowed." Mods shortcut the community's ability to provide input and one person should not be able to unilaterally determine what is and is not allowed in the game. You won't ever create it I'm challanging you, not saying you are not capable of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreakfastBurrito_007 Posted March 10, 2023 Report Share Posted March 10, 2023 6 hours ago, Freagarach said: https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/GettingStartedReinforcementLearning#Scenario Wow! This would be so busted in gameplay! Could you imagine you are desperately chasing these archercav and losing all of your units in a tedious course of 5 minutes and you realize your opponent hasn't even looked over to control them? @Yekaterina I guess I had a lucky first guess for a cheat that is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted March 10, 2023 Report Share Posted March 10, 2023 55 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said: possible. Theoretically possible, but impractically difficult to implement in real life, unless you can make it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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