Proposition regarding pathfinding and unit size

[Stan`]

Also you wouldn't see arrows anymore, which is bad IMHO.

[Yekaterina]

You guys are contradicting yourself: you want to ban dancing but you don't want infinite arrow speed...

It is the only truly effective solution to dancing except making all units stationary. I tried dancing in A26, it still works, although not as effective as A23 or A25

[Stan`]

12 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

You guys are contradicting yourself: you want to ban dancing but you don't want infinite arrow speed...

Just because it is the only solution you can think of doesn't mean it is the only solution.

The reason you can still dance is because we reduced the turn times to please competitive players. 

The reason we're having this discussion is because people complained so much about automatic dancing in A23, not the manual one, which still requires you to "waste" time doing the automation.

Another solution could be to add a Gamemode such as relic and conquest, which applies a technology on top of all units increasing the turn times, but turning archers into melee units by making their arrows faster. 

I am however not sure the game allows techs to affect TurnRate, Acceleration, and ArrowSpeed. But it could, in theory.

[Akira Kurosawa]

From everything I read, did I understand correctly that you want to turn arrows into bullets?

[Yekaterina]

2 hours ago, Akira Kurosawa said:

From everything I read, did I understand correctly that you want to turn arrows into bullets?

Exactly. No escape

@Stan` A23 can dance because units can move in curved paths and does not need to stop to turn. This allows them to glide around and hence dance. In later alphas they must stop then turn, so the problem is a lot less. Since A25, the dancer is just 1 unit trying to attract attention from enemy ranged and reduce their efficiency. 

Please explain what's so bad about infinite arrow apart from not seeing the flying projectile animation. To be honest I can't see the projectile just now in vanilla, I have to turn on some GUI mod to see it.

Your idea about techs improving turn rate is great. We can introduce slow turns and slow acceleration in P1 to nerf rushing, then add techs to the blacksmith in later phases to buff unit agility and counters to archer cav. This is definitely possible to achieve. 

[Akira Kurosawa]

3 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

Exactly. No escape

Maybe after all, then it is worth redoing the game setting from antiquity to the Renaissance, introducing firearms and cannons?

Spoiler

 

 

[Stan`]

4 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

Please explain what's so bad about infinite arrow apart from not seeing the flying projectile animation. To be honest I can't see the projectile just now in vanilla, I have to turn on some GUI mod to see it.

Well that's enough to break the immersion for people that don't care about competitive play. (Not seeing the projectile annoys me enough)

That's probably because you play zoomed out

Also you can achieve the same result by disabling the spread and the fact archers can miss.

4 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

Your idea about techs improving turn rate is great. We can introduce slow turns and slow acceleration in P1 to nerf rushing, then add techs to the blacksmith in later phases to buff unit agility and counters to archer cav. This is definitely possible to achieve. 

That's not what I proposed (I just want an on/off switch under the form of a game option) but yeah, you could do that too given the engine supports it.

 

 

[Akira Kurosawa]

On 27/02/2023 at 2:11 AM, Helicity said:

turn rate of all units

In my opinion, the current turn speed is ideal for foot units. But I would add a "loop" rotation for mounted units for a realistic look. You can of course put the horse on its hind legs and thus make a full turn, but in mass execution this can look ridiculous.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Akira Kurosawa

[real_tabasco_sauce]

8 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

You guys are contradicting yourself: you want to ban dancing but you don't want infinite arrow speed...

Currently, acceleration and other changes to unit motion in a26 have all but eliminated dancing. You can still do it, more often done with a single unit like you mentioned, but its really not problematic.

To make projectile velocity infinite would introduce many more problems to fix a non-issue.

5 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

We can introduce slow turns and slow acceleration in P1 to nerf rushing, then add techs to the blacksmith in later phases to buff unit agility and counters to archer cav. This is definitely possible to achieve. 

Fyi, I have a collection of upgrades designed to work on individual unit classes which are researched from the barracks and stable: https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/compare/main...unit_upgrades?from_project_id=36954588&straight=false

I have done plenty of adjustments recently for them and I think they work quite well.

Among these upgrades, 4 affect unit speed and acceleration (infantry swordsmen, spearmen, as well as cavalry spearmen and cavalry axemen).

The upgrades are available in town (tier 1) and city (tier 2).

Edited March 1, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Yekaterina]

1 hour ago, Stan` said:

Also you can achieve the same result by disabling the spread and the fact archers can miss.

No!

Right now there are 2 reasons why archers miss:

1. The archer aimed at the wrong place

2. The enemy unit ran away from its initial position

 

if we have infinite speed:

1. If the archer aimed at the wrong place, the arrow will land at the wrong place with certainty. it will still be a miss. So the <Spread> tag is still meaningful

<Spread> is a measure of how inaccurately the archers aim. Not how many will hit the enemy. 

2. The enemy unit cannot run away from its initial position. 

 

We need the spread tag to nerf archers initially, to prevent OP ness. But in late game players can increase their archer DPS by getting techs that improve accuracy. 

For Spread > 0, the further away the target the greater the error. Therefore for best aim and DPS, put your archers very close to the enemy. But then the trade-off is that you cannot escape.

Conclusion: infinite arrow does not contradict spread. 

 

To keep @Stan` and casuals players happy, I have 2 ideas:

1. Only add infinite speed arrows to community mod

2. Add a tech which bumps arrow speed to relativistic values such that enemy units cannot dodge. 

 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

ranged units need to be able to miss, otherwise they are melee units. 

*edit: ok well there is also spread so they would still not be as bad as AoE 4.

my bad for forgetting that.

In the past 100 games I have watched and played I can not remember 1 instance of 'dancing' 

Edited March 1, 2023 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[real_tabasco_sauce]

7 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

1. Only add infinite speed arrows to community mod

Good luck with that 

I've made much more reasonable propositions only for them to be outvoted.

Edited March 1, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[maroder]

my two cents: hard no for infinite arrow speed

[Yekaterina]

6 minutes ago, maroder said:

my two cents: hard no for infinite arrow speed

Fine, "relativistic" arrow speed then

[Akira Kurosawa]

3 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

2. Add a tech which bumps arrow speed to relativistic values such that enemy units cannot dodge. 

 

3 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

1. Only add infinite speed arrows to community mod

I told you, you need to redo the game.

Spoiler

Edited March 1, 2023 by Akira Kurosawa

[fabio]

19 hours ago, Akira Kurosawa said:

Maybe after all, then it is worth redoing the game setting from antiquity to the Renaissance, introducing firearms and cannons?

You can do it with mods:

 

[Stan`]

I just checked https://trac.wildfiregames.com/browser/ps/trunk/source/simulation2/components/CCmpUnitMotion.h#L742

We only support affecting UnitMotion/WalkSpeed and UnitMotion/RunMultiplier not Acceleration and InstantTurnAngle

According to wiki:TechModifications and https://trac.wildfiregames.com/browser/ps/trunk/binaries/data/mods/public/simulation/components/Attack.js we don't support changing projectile speed either.

So sadly, no techs can affect those value.