Greatest battles against the odds

[Leonidas I]

You are surrounded. There's no re-enforcements in sight. Your small unit is outnumbered by at least ten to one. The outcome is obvious-- you will be defeated! Which battle would you rank as the greatest defensive fight in terms of military, political and historical significance?

My favourite, Thermopylae, where the 300 Spartans fought about 2million Persians to gain time for their fellow Greeks. The Alamo, where a small band of Texicans kept Santa Ana's army at bay until Sam Houston could organize his army. Wake Island, where a Marine battalion kept the Japanese Navy at bay. Cassino, where German paratroopers changed the course of the Italian Campaign in WWII by warding off the entire Allied 5th Army. Or, Rorke's Drift, where a small British detachment valiantly held off thousands of Zulus. I'm listing small units, which is why you don't see Stalingrad or the Chosin Resoirvoir listed.

+Honor to those who in their lives+

+have defined and guard their Thermopylae+

[Paal_101]

I would have to say Rourkes Drift, if just for its sheer strangeness of the confrontation. Two forces on completely opposite sides of a technological gorge. On one side the Zulus' greatest strength was the fact that they had absolutley no fear, allowing them to perform amazing feats of bravery and courage in the face of almost certain death if targeted by a British soldier. Likewise the British relied upon the quality of their equipment to win the day for them. A Martini-Henry rifle with the short chamber .45 Boxer-Henry cartidge is a massively powerful weapon and despite its tendency to jam when it is fired too quickly in hot conditions, it meant that British troops were easily a match for 3 or 4 opponents with less advanced weaponry. To paraphrase Tom Cruise from Last Samurai, the Martini-Henry could quite literally "blow a hole in your daddy six inches wide".

But the similarities of the two sides at Rourke's Drift are offset by just how similar the two sides were. Both were highly trained professional armies made up of volunteers who had chosen military service as a career, equipped and fed by the state. Both had highly organized command structures and possessed highly involved tactics and strategies. In the end the Zulus only lost because they simply couldn't match the firepower of the British, even though they had numerical superiority of 20 to 1.

Thermopylae is the classic example of the last stand, but I've seen it too many times on these kinds of lists to actually endorse it, because everyone does However one must remember the 700 Thespians that stayed with the Spartans at the end, something that is often sadly forgotten. These Thespians were for the most part citizen soldiers with families, children, jobs, and lives back in Thespia, they were not professional soldiers and they did not as a general rule have the fatalism of the Spartans. For instance their leader at Thermopylae, Demophilus, was an architect, no professional killer. A man who has been trained from birth to die can easily lay down his life, but a man who has something to live for has to force himself to do likewise, showing amazing courage. For me men like Demophilus showed more courage than even Leonidas himself and I greatly respect that.

Plus, I'm sorry Leonidas, but I have to laugh at the 2 million-man strength of the Persian army. Herodotus was a crazy one with his numbers There is an old saying in the study of ancient military history: knock a zero off the army's strength. Which in this case is very true, since surveys of the path taken shown by Xerxes and his army show that even 2500 years ago, with the increased rainfall back then, there would have only been enough water to have refreshed 250,000 men and 75,000 animals of all kinds. This does not diminish the Greek holding of the Pass in the face of overwhelming odds, since they were still fighting odds of roughly 35 to 1 for two days.

I must also mention that a distant relation of mine, Colonel-General Heinrich von Vietinghoff-Scheel, was in overall command of the are in which the Battle of Monte Cassino was fought.

Truly, Leonidas, we all face our own Thermopylaes at one time or another. We can take courage from the men who have faced down far worse and remain triumphant to this day.

[Leonidas I]

I understand your decision but nontheless my opinion stands that Thermopylae was the greatest battle. It was ferocious, hand-to-hand fighting, no guns, and the Spartans (and Thesbians) didnt have any archers (but maybe a few helot peltasts). They faced odds of 35-1, though they fought with courage, ferosity and honour that was surely worthy of their gods, slaying persians left, right and center....when their king Leonidas died, a great struggle ensued over his body, 4 times the Persians tried to take it, and 4 times they were repulsed, until, exhausted, the Spartans retreated dragging the body of their king, past the pheonocian wall and onto a small hillock nearby.

"The small desperate band of spartans stood side by side on the hill still fighting to the last, some with swords, others with daggers, others even with their hands and teeth, till not one living man remained amongst them when the sun went down. There was only a mound of slain, bristled with arrows ... those with weapons still clutching them." - ancient text

Twenty thousand Persians had died before that small number of men! If that isnt courage at its very best, i dont know what is. This battle was the origin of democracy, all thanks to a few brave men who sacrificed their lives in the name of courage, valour, honour and duty. If it wasnt for that F**king traitor, the Spartans and Thesbians probly could have held on...or even routed the Persian invaders.

interesting fact: After the battle, Xerxes asked Demaratus (an ex Spartan King) if there were many more at Sparta like the '300'. He was told there were 8,000 more like them. Xerxes was not enthralled with this answer, and ordered more reinforcements!

Edited July 30, 2006 by Leonidas I

[Mythos_Ruler]

I chose Rorke's Drift because even though the Brits faced the same odds as Leonidas faced at Thermopylae or the Texans at the Alamo they actually WON! Amazing feat. I'd like to see a 21st century movie tackle that one again.

[Paal_101]

The 1964 film "Zulu" actually does an excellent job of portraying the battle, albeit with some obvious flaws. A remake would be awesome, ala the "Alamo" with Billy Bob Thorton (another good movie).

[FirePowa8]

I love Thermopylae, but it's glory should still be disputed. Here were 5200 men and their slaves who were trained to actually fight in melee with courageous strength, Spartan or not - the phalanx was the perfect weapon in a choke point against a couple hundred thousand poorly equipped soldiers. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. Still, their heroism is clear and is indeed the definitive last stand story, I think a little moreso than the Alamo.

But Rorke's Drift - darn, the British had even succumbed to a horrible defeat that same day, and still 139 odd soldiers held off an army that completely dwarfed their size - likely moreso than the Persians to the Greeks!

Two other battles I would like to mention, though not definitive as last stands, are the Kokoda Track Campaign(2000 teenagers or thereabouts defeated over 10,000) and Long Tan (108 defeated 2500), both Australian victories against huge odds in WW2 and Vietnam, respectively.

[Yamato Take]

As a Texan, I am contractually obligated to say the Alamo.

Edited July 31, 2006 by Yamato Take

[Paal_101]

This is a really neat little video to drop into the middle of such a discussion. It is the last stand scene taken from the movie The Myth, featuring a rather uncharacteristically, and quite refreshingly, serious Jackie Chan as a Qin general, the last of his men alive, facing off against an army of adversaries. Quite impressive actually, so check it out. Obviously fictional, but it matches the theme and tone of the discussion

[Leonidas I]

Lol, almost looks like Thermopylae , with Jackie Chan as one of the Spartans, and the other chinese people as the Persians

Edited August 2, 2006 by Leonidas I

[FirePowa8]

What about Katsumoto's battle in the Last Samurai?

[Leonidas I]

yeah, that was good, but again the reminder of Thermopylae gave the samurai the courage to fight on