cl2488
-
Posts
51 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by cl2488
-
-
The mercenary cavalry are known to be difficult to defend in a25. I played Borg- with Carthaginians recently. In contrast to the "conventional" way of building walls to defend the base, Borg- used active attacking strategies to gain an upper hand in the game. Here I attached two interesting games.
The first one is very interesting with an unexpected ending. Borg- used the Ptolemies and rushed me with camels. He was strong in the early game and leading the game with double population of mine. Remarkably, I was able to hold the game and eventually fought back and won the game. It is rare to win vs Borg-, so I am quite proud of this game.
In the second one, Borg- used Maurya. He adopted a very aggressive strategy and gave me large pressure all the way in the game. I was able to defend and mass some sword cavalry. But eventually I lost. It is a very interesting game, which shows how to fight the Carthaginians with an active attacking strategy.
-
1
-
1
-
-
18 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:
@cl2488
Woo, a new record ; )
7:01, almost 7:00By the way the rules mean "dont make more women than they are 50" instead of "dont make more than 50 women so the maximum number is 54", right? Nobody ever exploited it.
7:01 is a very fast time. Incredible. Congratulation!
If you further optimize it, you may be able to achieve < 7:00. That would set a new standard for 0AD boom.
Would you like to share some key points how to achieve such a fast time?
When I made the rule of woman count, I meant that the maximum woman population is 50. I have revised the wording to make this rule clear.
-
@LetswaveaBook Can you update the bracket to follow the progress of the tournament?
-
When I put my mouse on a building, sometimes a "cross flag" symbol appears (see the image below). What does it mean and how to avoid it?
-
On 07/12/2021 at 7:54 AM, Player of 0AD said:
Woo.... You made a new record. 7:09 is a remarkable time.
-
1
-
-
23 minutes ago, Feldfeld said:
7:10 taking animals
Woo... a new record! 7:10 is a remarkable time.
-
9 hours ago, the-x said:
7:19
Improved the start of ValihrAnt:
- Correct number of builders at berry
- Correct recruiting in City Centre
- Correct number of builders for houses at the start and in the 30-100 phase, escpecially the start, 30-50
- wood upgrade I timing
- i never build a farm with 5 cit or make them Shift+ clicked
There are no bonusses or extras used, but at the moment i will not upload that replay cause it shows a lot of mathematics especially in the start or all the correct numbers when it comes to optimizing.
This is a new record! It would be nice if you can upload your replay to show us how you achieve it. I will put you and your time in the leaderboard if you post your replay. Would you consider posting your replay with commentary on your Youtube channel? It is remarkable to achieve 100 pop in 7:19.
-
1
-
-
15 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:
Woo.... A new record!
-
1
-
-
On 16/11/2021 at 4:51 AM, faction02 said:
Thanks for the fun challenge, it gives a nice opportunity for anyone to evaluate how well he is doing or try to copy some other people build. I usually don't think too much about the build order, I just try to spend all resources that I have and maximize workers efficiency. Trying various "normal" build order, I would always get to something between 7:40 and 7:50 but I would also usually float quite a lot of resources since it is also the timing around which I normally phase up.
Taking a paper and a pen to write down the key steps of Vali's build then trying to implement it at slow speed is a nice exercise for anyone who want to improve his early game (or don't remember how to play). In a poor attempt to copy Vali's build at 0.75x speed with many mistakes (completely forgetting the berries upgrade among others
), I got to 7:35.
I think putting 2 extra women or taking the upgrade is close to be equivalent in general, if you don't have extra berries. Taking the upgrade is however a dominant strategy in a normal game because you might have berries that you haven't scouted yet. Since you need to decide from the start if you want the upgrade, you should take the upgrade before scouting just in case you have some extra. In this challenge, since we know from the start that you will never have extra berries to take, it makes sense to consider build orders without the upgrade to get a faster first houses and barrack and focus on training units faster.
About the food upgrade, 40 seconds is quite a long time for techs to be researched relative to the length of the challenge. If you start researching the food upgrade around minute 4-5, it won't make much of a difference relative to someone not taking that upgrade but getting extra fields. Vali research it quite late but get 7 fields, I tried early food upgrade with 6 fields or later food upgrade with 7 fields, both seems to give about the same result. The 7 fields/later tech is however better for a normal game.
For the wood upgrad, Vali researches it before he makes the second house, so it kicks in very early. The main issue there is when the research is completed, Vali needs to develop his farm/build houses&barrack, i.e. add workers to the less efficient sector of his economy instead of adding them to his wood economy where they would be the most productive. Vali has only between 14 to 20 woodcutters in most of the challenge so it doesn't take too many extra woodcutters to compensate for the missing +25%.
Relative to a non-tech build, on top of being better for middle-late game, I would guess Vali's build would also be much better, even around minute 7, if you have extra food:
- The berries tech would be beneficial if you have extra berries;
- You would be able to delay building farms to get more woodcutters in early game, therefore benefiting more from the wood tech advantage.
Do you want to post your replay? I will add you into the leaderboard if you post your replay.
-
On 17/11/2021 at 1:11 PM, ISlan said:
Tried a few times, the best I got is 07:30
Apparently ValihrAnt is a super human, couldn't break his record xD
Will try again tommrrow7:30 is a very good time. I have added you and your time to the leaderboard.
-
@DerekO From the response on this topic, it looks like the money prize is not a very good idea. Most of the players in 0AD just play games for fun not for money. Having money prize will complicate the things. If you like, you may go ahead to host a tournament with no money prize. I think some good players will enter the tournament and you can just get it going.
-
4 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:
Something I noticed from Vali's efficient build, is that at 20 population he is housed for some time. What I tended to do was to build a house with all my woodcutters, which reduced the time I was housed. Because I used all units, my wood collection dropped to 0 and that did hurt more than the extra time of being housed.
Initially I always considers Vali's approach strange and I thought there is no valid reason why a strategy involves being housed. However I changed that opinion and Vali does that in the superior way.
Also as you have at most 50 women and want over 30 near your CC for farming, you should send less than 20 women to your storehouse for woodcutting. So that is a mistake I did as well, having to few women around the CC.
I did a number of tries and my best currently is 7:33, with using extra hunt I still can't beat Vali. He must have been optimizing/practicing that build for a long period.
Can you post your new replay? I can update the leaderboard after you post your replay.
It is okay not being able to beat Vali's time. 7:33 is a good time already. I would like to watch your replay.
-
20 hours ago, chrstgtr said:
May I suggest a revision? 100 pop doesn’t have any in game meaning. It’s just a round number and doesn’t require going p2 or doing any techs beyond maybe food and or wood. I think a better challenge would be to do 200 or 300 pop with some limit on women and require p3. I only say this because the first time I did it I got a ‘bad’ time which I felt was because I did upgrades. So I tried twice more, each time with a worse “normal” game build order and I got a better time each time. With that said, my best time after 3 attempts was 7:25 using a build order that would make me terribly slow in mid-late game (zero techs; 1 barrack).
Can this build order be applied to do a phase-1 infantry rush in the real game? If you rush the opponent with ~50 infantry at minute 7, you can probably end the game.
-
3 minutes ago, Reyhan said:
Spartan boom.zip 30 kB · 0 downloads
This is how I would play in a TG, I researched military techs at the cost of slowing down. If I am playing a 1v1 I would make a bit more skirmishers.
Boom could have been faster with all ranged units but that would be bad for fighting.
Of course, in a real game, the scouting and fighting can slow down the boom. But in this challenge, we will simplify it and only focus on the boom. It will help us to see the details of how to improve the boom.
Please also report the time when you post the replay, so that people know your time and I can post your time in the leaderboard.
-
20 hours ago, Dizaka said:
Additionally, there's better boom methods to 50/50 women/men that cannot be maximized with Sparta. However, they can be with 75 wood home civs.
You can post your replay here for a different civ if you like.
-
2 hours ago, faction02 said:
Thanks for the fun challenge, it gives a nice opportunity for anyone to evaluate how well he is doing or try to copy some other people build. I usually don't think too much about the build order, I just try to spend all resources that I have and maximize workers efficiency. Trying various "normal" build order, I would always get to something between 7:40 and 7:50 but I would also usually float quite a lot of resources since it is also the timing around which I normally phase up.
Taking a paper and a pen to write down the key steps of Vali's build then trying to implement it at slow speed is a nice exercise for anyone who want to improve his early game (or don't remember how to play). In a poor attempt to copy Vali's build at 0.75x speed with many mistakes (completely forgetting the berries upgrade among others
), I got to 7:35.
I think putting 2 extra women or taking the upgrade is close to be equivalent in general, if you don't have extra berries. Taking the upgrade is however a dominant strategy in a normal game because you might have berries that you haven't scouted yet. Since you need to decide from the start if you want the upgrade, you should take the upgrade before scouting just in case you have some extra. In this challenge, since we know from the start that you will never have extra berries to take, it makes sense to consider build orders without the upgrade to get a faster first houses and barrack and focus on training units faster.
About the food upgrade, 40 seconds is quite a long time for techs to be researched relative to the length of the challenge. If you start researching the food upgrade around minute 4-5, it won't make much of a difference relative to someone not taking that upgrade but getting extra fields. Vali research it quite late but get 7 fields, I tried early food upgrade with 6 fields or later food upgrade with 7 fields, both seems to give about the same result. The 7 fields/later tech is however better for a normal game.
For the wood upgrad, Vali researches it before he makes the second house, so it kicks in very early. The main issue there is when the research is completed, Vali needs to develop his farm/build houses&barrack, i.e. add workers to the less efficient sector of his economy instead of adding them to his wood economy where they would be the most productive. Vali has only between 14 to 20 woodcutters in most of the challenge so it doesn't take too many extra woodcutters to compensate for the missing +25%.
Relative to a non-tech build, on top of being better for middle-late game, I would guess Vali's build would also be much better, even around minute 7, if you have extra food:
- The berries tech would be beneficial if you have extra berries;
- You would be able to delay building farms to get more woodcutters in early game, therefore benefiting more from the wood tech advantage.
Do you want to post your replay? I will put you in the leaderboard if you post your replay.
-
15 hours ago, seeh said:
What surprises me the most at the moment is that your batches are usually not higher than 4 and sometimes even only 1.
I think by using small batches, you can have enough resource to build a house ahead of time. You can see Vali often just uses one woman to build a house (this saves the most work time) while others are working.
-
40 minutes ago, Reyhan said:
Hi cl2488, I would like to try the challenge. Can we relax rule 3? I think deleting women and replacing them with something else in late game is faster than making few women early.
Okay. I modify rule 3 to allow you to make more women but delete them later.
-
1
-
-
4 hours ago, Grapjas said:
I kind of agree with Vali that extra hunt can be a little rng, maybe without that too?
Okay. I remove the extra hunt.
-
1 hour ago, faction02 said:
The best would be to start with the exact same map generation
How to generate exactly the same map for different players?
-
I have just posted another challenge to reach 200 pop with phase 3 in the forum. You are welcome to take this challenge.
-
Would you be interested in designing efficient build orders to take the following challenge?
(1) Use Spartans on a small mainland map (subalphine biome, unexplored, unrevealed) with low starting resources.
(2) No extra berry or hunt besides the starting berry and chicken.
(3) When you reach 200 pop, the number of women does not exceed 50. (You are allowed to make more women and delete them later).
(4) You need to reach phase 3.
With the above setting and requirements, please try your best to reach 200 pop in the fastest time. The 200 units need to be on the map (units in the queue don't count). You may make the pop exactly 200; once the 200th unit comes out, you may stop and record the time. Please post your time and your replays here.
-
14 hours ago, chrstgtr said:
May I suggest a revision? 100 pop doesn’t have any in game meaning. It’s just a round number and doesn’t require going p2 or doing any techs beyond maybe food and or wood. I think a better challenge would be to do 200 or 300 pop with some limit on women and require p3. I only say this because the first time I did it I got a ‘bad’ time which I felt was because I did upgrades. So I tried twice more, each time with a worse “normal” game build order and I got a better time each time. With that said, my best time after 3 attempts was 7:25 using a build order that would make me terribly slow in mid-late game (zero techs; 1 barrack).
7:25 is a remarkable time. Can you post your replay here? I will put your name on the leaderboard after I see your replay.
-
14 hours ago, chrstgtr said:
May I suggest a revision? 100 pop doesn’t have any in game meaning. It’s just a round number and doesn’t require going p2 or doing any techs beyond maybe food and or wood. I think a better challenge would be to do 200 or 300 pop with some limit on women and require p3. I only say this because the first time I did it I got a ‘bad’ time which I felt was because I did upgrades. So I tried twice more, each time with a worse “normal” game build order and I got a better time each time. With that said, my best time after 3 attempts was 7:25 using a build order that would make me terribly slow in mid-late game (zero techs; 1 barrack).
You may post another topic on this challenge. It is interesting to see the record time for 200 pop or 300 pop.
8 hours ago, chrstgtr said:Simple answer is, it's not always worth it because it depends on your goals. Berry tech is most efficient for a long boom (it lets you research wood tech earlier), but that isn't what I was trying to do. I put my first 6 women on berries, which led to more early pop at the cost of efficiency (i.e., the wood/farming tech, which would've repaid itself in a few minutes that were beyond my event horizon). If it was a 120 pop challenge my time probably would've been comparatively much slower because my growth curve was sharply flattening.
Can you post your replay here? I am curious to see how you can reach 100 pop in 7:15.
Designing efficient economy for continous production of units
in Gameplay Discussion
Posted · Edited by cl2488
Have you ever found that you are floating a lot of resources in the game, or some of your production buildings are idle because you are lacking one type of resource? This is because your economy isn't optimized to support the production of units. It is not trivial to know how many production buildings you should build, and how to accurately distribute your workers on each resource to support non-stop production of these buildings, so that little resources are floating and no production building is idle. If you are interested in building the most efficient economy, my study may be able to help you.
I have analyzed the economic structure of 0 AD Alpha 25 and searched for the most efficient economic models to continuously produce units in different scenarios (see the attached file). By considering the gathering rate of workers, the cost and production time of different units, I derive a simple formula to calculate how many workers are needed on each resource to sustain the production of units at different batch sizes, with and without the economy upgrades. From the calculation results, I make a number of exemplary economic models to illustrate how to distribute your workers accurately on each resource in different scenarios. The results may be adapted to design other economic models for different strategies, and shall be particularly useful when combining with the auto-queue function of the game.
You are welcome to give comments to make improvements.
Designing economy in 0 AD.pdf