[Civ: Imperial Romans (Principates)]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

That Italo-Corinthian is cool, i like how your mod avoids the standardized view of Romans.

I found some interesting links on the Manica, perhaps a bit old:

http://www.romanarmy.net/manica.shtml

https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/showthread.php?tid=11197

It was riveted and covered the upper half of the arm; there is some debate on which direction it overlapped.

[===[TASK]=== Scythian Horse Archer]

11 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

Perhaps the scale leggings should have lacing on the back ?

Like in medieval mail chausses.

[War Elephants]

5 hours ago, m7600 said:

Hmm... I never noticed that. Good eye! It's certainly weird if you think about it. If you are going to put armor on your elephant, why would you only cover the lower legs? Strange.

That seems to be the case. 

But the armor thing intrigued me. Would it have been really necessary for elephants on the battlefield to have leg armor? I'm not an expert on this, but I don't think you can take down a stampeding elephant by attacking its legs. These are not horses. If an elephant charged, I imagine that the most reasonable thing to do would be to get out of its way, and only attack it once it has finished stampeding.

 

A higher res  image of the statue:

Legs and neck have similar patterns so it may be creases on the skin; it may be possible that they focused on the lower leg due to being easier to reach but not very likely in my opinion. You could easily reach the uncovered parts with a spear; as discussed on the thread i posted there is alsoso the issue of how to attach the defenses and if they hinder movement.

This picture depicts the pattern on the neck as a throat protection:

Also does not make much sense; scale elephant armor is know to have existed but the elephant in the sculpture has none (Why cover the neck but expose the sides and belly ? The later are easier targets than the throat).

[War Elephants]

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

 

I wonder if those pictures of elephants with armored legs are accurate; it seems the source is this statue:

 

They are limited to the lower leg and cover less than most modern depiction, maybe the artist was trying to depict the folds on elephant's knees  ?

Mughal examples cover almost the whole body but not the legs:

Interesting discussion on another forum:

http://theminiaturespage.com/news/talk/msg.mv?id=708758

 

[===[TASK]=== Scythian Horse Archer]

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Actually I didn't mean their helmets, but their body armour:

I suppose my view on Scythian armour is largely based on finds from the Issyk kurgan (a royal tomb in modern Kazakhstan):

Yes, scale is more appropriate than thorax; although some may have adopted it from hellenic neighbours.

[===[TASK]=== Scythian Horse Archer]

59 minutes ago, Nescio said:

They look rather Greek to me ...

They were influenced by Greeks and used Chalcidian helmets,  they also used other more eastern helmets but those are not in game yet:

 

 

[Crowd-Sourced Civ: Seleucids]

4 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Mmm I wonder if the Illyrian helmet is the best choice for a Syrian archer in the Seleucid army.

 

Not sure if Syrian archers should use shields, i think it was more of a Cretan thing (At most  they could have some wicker shields).

[Greek Shield Factory]

Found a model of a Boeotian shield in an older thread, may be useful for Thespians.

[===[TASK]=== Crowd Sourced - Thracians (Faction)]

Cant answer 1 and 3, but i can provide some advice.

On 5/13/2020 at 5:15 PM, timonovici said:

I also have a bunch of pictures from him, and drawings from a renowned ilustrator from Romania, Radu Oltean. What is the normal way to share files, I've got quite a few pictures.
 

You click ''choose files'' near the paperclip icon to upload, you can also link images from other sites by pasting the link.

It's good to use spoiler tags for posting multiple images.

Quote

4th: is there a mod or a way to see the current state of the dacians in game? 

There is a Thracians mod that requires alpha 24.

[Medium-sized to Small Round Shields (peltas and bucklers), for non-pikemen]

I was actually thinking of posting something similar before i saw this thread (I was going to suggest a wicker shield for the basic Nabatean).

9 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Then it would be great to have some specifically Cretan Archer patterned shields as well for the buckler sized model:

They should have the cretan bull:

 

[===[COMMITTED]=== Seleucid Thorakites (Unit Texture)]

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The Hellenistic Heavy Swordsman (mercenary swordsman trained from the Hellenistic Mercenary Camp)

• Mix between chain and linothorakes

For mercenary one variant could be a simpler chain armor with no shoulderpads or pteryges:

Also can Ptolemies train mercenary heavy swordsman, or does the Galatian swordsman replace it ?

[Thracian mercenaries]

1 minute ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think the Athenians and Spartans could get Thracian Peltast mercenary units, but the Rhomphaia dudes seem to appear later in the sources.

Thracian (Odrysian) cavalry can be seen at Gaugamela, 500 strong, fighting for Alexander armed with javelins and swords. Thracians are seen with the Macedonians serving King Perseus at the Battle of Callinicus, helping to secure a tactical victory there. 

Here is some mention of Thracian troops in the Seleucid army: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Seleucid_army#/Allied,_vassal_and_mercenary_infantry

From what i can find in a quick search the first Romphaia finds are from 400-300 B.C.

For such a famous weapon,  it is a bit hard to find detailed information on.

[The Greco Bactrian Kingdom (and something on the Indo Greek Kingdoms)]

On 5/1/2020 at 11:16 AM, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Might also fit Bactrians.

I have a draft for a Greco-Bactrian civ.

Here it is (Only units):

Spoiler

UNIT DESCRIPTIONS

BARRACKS UNITS

• Generic Name: Iranian Levy Spearman.
• Specific Name:Pantodapos .
  • Class:Infantry spearman.
  • Hacker Armament:Spear.
  • Appearance:
    • Basic: Tunic, barefoot, wicker shield
    • Advanced: Cap, tunic, sandals, wooden shield (Round or Thureos).
    • Elite:Pilos or eastern helmet, colorful tunic, sandals, wooden shield (Round or Thureos).
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special: 

• Generic Name:Settler Pikeman .
• Specific Name:Katoikos Phalangites
  • Class: Pikeman.
  • Hacker Armament:Sarissa .
  • Appearance:
    • Basic: Cap, tunic and sandals, small round shield.
    • Advanced: Pilos helmet, tunic and sandals, small round shield
    • Elite: Thracian or Phrygian helmet, linothorax, may have bronze plated shield
  • History: .
  • Function: .
  • Special: -
• Generic Name:Baktrian Hillman
• Specific Name:
  • Class: Swordsman?
  • Hacker Armament:Axe
  • Appearance:
    • Basic: Tunic, barefoot, wicker shield
    • Advanced: Cap, tunic with sandals, wooden shield (Round or Oval)
    • Elite: Bronze helmet in eastern style, more colorful tunic, shield has boss
  • History:
  • Function: .
  • Special: -

ARCHERY RANGE UNITS

• Generic Name:Iranian Archer .
• Specific Name:.
  • Class: Archer.
  • Ranged Armament: Bow.
  • Appearance:
    • Basic: Tunic, barefoot.
    • Advanced:Cap, tunic and sandals.
    • Elite:Eastern bronze helmet, more colorful tunic.
  • History: .
  • Function: .
  • Special: .

• Generic Name: Indo-Greek Heavy Javelinist.
  • Specific Name: Indohellenikos Thureophoros
    • Class:Javelinist .
    • Ranged Armament:Javelins, sword .
    • Appearance:
      • Basic:Hellenic helmet, tunic, sandals, Thureos.
      • Advanced:Hellenic helmet, linothorax, Thureos with elaborate pattern.
      • Elite: Crested helmet, Scale armor with greaves, Thureos with Elaborate pattern.
    • History: .
    • Function: .
    • Special: .

CAVALRY STABLE UNITS

• Generic Name: Dahae Horseman.
• Specific Name: Daha Ashanabara.
  • Class: Cavalry Javelinist.
  • Ranged Armament:Javelin .
  • Appearance:
    • Basic: Cap, tunic and wicker shield.
    • Advanced: Eastern conical helmet, more colorful tunic, wooden round shield.
    • Elite: Eastern conical helmet, linothorax or scale, Shield has more elaborate pattern and a boss.
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special: 

• Generic Name: Ionian Settler Horseman.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Cavalry Spearman.
  • Ranged Armament: Lance.
  • Appearance:
    • Basic: Hellenic helmet, linothorax or scale.
    • Advanced: Crested helmet, linothorax or scale, greaves.
    • Elite: Crested helmet, Muscle cuirass, mount has animal pelts and/or light armor (Chamfron and Peytral)
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special:

 

• Generic Name:Bactrian Horse Archer .
• Specific Name: Hippotoxotes.
  • Class: Cavalry Archer.
  • Ranged Armament: Bow.
  • Appearance:
    • Basic: Eastern or Pilos helmet, tunic.
    • Advanced: Hellenistic helmet, linothorax.
    • Elite: Crested helmet, linothorax or scale, greaves.
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special: 

SUPPORT UNITS

• Generic Name: Bactrian Woman.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Female Citizen.
  • Appearance: 
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special: 

• Generic Name: Bactrian Priest.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Healer.
  • Appearance:
    • Garb: 
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special: 

• Generic Name: Bactrian Merchant.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Trader.
  • Appearance:
    • Garb: Kausia hat, mix of eastern and hellenic dress.
    • Mount:Horse cart or maybe camel ?
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special: 

NAVY

• Generic Name: Fishing Boat.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Fishing Ship.
  • Appearance:
    • Shell: -
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special: 

• Generic Name: Trading Ship.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Merchant Ship.
  • Appearance:
    • Shell: (Standard).
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special: 

• Generic Name: Light Warship.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Light Warship.
  • Appearance:
    • Shell: Single-tier, 25 rows.
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special: 

• Generic Name: Medium Warship.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Medium Warship.
  • Appearence:
    • Shell: 
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special: 

SIEGE WORKSHOP UNITS

• Generic Name: Stone Thrower.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Catapult
  • Appearance:
    • Shell: 
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special: 

• Generic Name: Bolt Shooter.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Bolt Shooter
  • Appearance:
    • Shell: 
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special: 

• Generic Name: Ram.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Ram
  • Appearance:
    • Shell: 
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special: 

• Generic Name: Siege Tower
• Specific Name: .
  • Class:Siege Tower
  • Appearance:
    • Shell: 
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special: 

CHAMPION UNITS

• Generic Name: Baktrian Guardsman
• Specific Name:Somatophylax .
  • Class: Champion Infantry.
  • Armament: Spear
  • Appearance: Plumed helmet (Hellenic or eastern), scale or muscle cuirass, greaves, Hoplon.
  • History: .
  • Function: 
  • Special: 

 

• Generic Name: Cataphract
• Specific Name:Kataphractos .
  • Class: Champion Cavalry.
  • Armament: Lance
  • Appearance: Crested hellenic helmet (May have mask), muscle Cuirass or scale, limb protection (Segmented, or scale with sleeves)
  • History: 
  • Function: 

 

 

Generic Name: Indian War Elephant. 

Specific Name: Elefantos

Class: Champion Elephant. 

Hacker Armament (Primary): Tusks. Crushing attack. 

Ranged Armament (Passive): Archer

Hacker Armament (Passive-Trample): Feet. 

Appearance: - 

Garb: The 2 riders and 1 mahout have random armour between bronze muscled cuirass and scale reinforced linothorax, with pteruges. No greaves. Boots. 

Helmet: Thracian or near eastern bronze helmets, crested and plumed, non-crested and non-plumed. 

Shield: No shields for any of the riders/mahout. Tower has Baktrian-emblazoned shields on the sides. 

Mount: Large Indian Elephant with small wooden tower on its back. May have some armor.

Figure(s):

BACTRIAN HEROES

• Generic Name:Diodotus .
• Specific Name: .
  • Class:Hero Swordsman .
  • Hacker Armament:Sword .
  • Appearance:
    • Garb:Cuirass with Pteryges and Greaves
    • Helmet: Conical iron with crest
    • Shield: Hoplon with Zeus holding a thunderbolt and Aegis (Based on a coin)
    • Figure(s): 
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special:
    • "Hero" Aura (details here).

• Generic Name: Demetrius I.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class:Hero Elephant .
  • Hacker Armament: Tusks and Trampling.
  • Ranged Armament: Bow.
  • Appearance:
    • Garb:Bronze cuirass, Mahout has scale armor, and archer linothorax.
    • Helmet: Elephant Boeotian?, the others have Phrygian helmets in player color
    • Shield: Tower has silver shield with caduceus
    • Figure(s): Armored indian elephant with wooden tower, alongside with the hero there is a mahout and an archer
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special:
    • "Hero" Aura (details here).

• Generic Name:Eucratides .
• Specific Name: Hero Cavalry Spearman.
  • Class: .
  • Hacker Armament: .
  • Ranged Armament: .
  • Appearance:
    • Garb:Iron Cuirass with segmented limb armor
    • Helmet: Painted Boeotian with horns and ears
    • Shield: 
    • Figure(s): 
  • History: 
  • Function: 
  • Special:
    • "Hero" Aura (details here).

CIVIC CENTER UNITS

• Female Citizen
• Melee Infantry: Pantodapos.
• Ranged Infantry: Iranian archer.
• Cavalry:Dahan horseman .

FORBIDDEN CLASSES

• Slinger.
• Cavalry Swordsman.
• Quinquereme.

STRUCTURE DESCRIPTIONS

VILLAGE

• Generic Name: House.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: House.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Granary.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Farmstead.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Field.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Field.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Corral.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Corral.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Storehouse.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Storehouse.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Outpost.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Outpost.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Sentry Tower.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Sentry Tower.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Palisade.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Palisade.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Barracks.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Barracks.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Archery Range.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Archery Range.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Cavalry Stable.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Cavalry Stable.
  • History: 

TOWN

• Generic Name: Civic Center.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Civic Center.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Dock.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Dock.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Temple.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Temple.
  • History:

• Generic Name: Blacksmith.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Blacksmith.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Marketplace.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Market.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Defense Tower.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Defense Tower.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Stone Wall.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Stone Wall.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Wall Tower.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Wall Tower.
  • History: 

• Generic Name: Gate.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Gate.
  • History: 

CITY

• Generic Name: Fortress.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Fortress.
  • History: 

SPECIAL STRUCTURES

• Generic Name: Special Building 2.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: SB1.
  • History: 
  • Requirements: Any?
  • Phase: .
  • Special: 

• Generic Name: Special Building 1.
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: SB2.
  • History: 
  • Requirements: Any?
  • Phase: .
  • Special: 

WONDER

• Generic Name: .
• Specific Name: .
  • Class: Wonder.
  • History: .
  • Any Special Requirements: 
  • Phase: City.
  • Special: 

NEW STRUCTURE TRAITS

List any new structure traits here.

FORBIDDEN STRUCTURES

Any?

CIV BONUSES

• CB1
  • Name: .
  • History: 
  • Effect: 

• CB2
  • Generic Name: .
  • Specific Name: .
  • History: 
  • Effect: 

TEAM BONUS

• TB
  • Name: .
  • History: 
  • Effect: 

TECHNOLOGIES

• Infantry: Good.
• Cavalry: Very good.
• Naval: Poor.
• Siege: Good.
• Economy:
  • Farming:  Average.
  • Mining: Good.
  • Lumbering: Good.
  • Hunting:  Average.
  • Land Trade:Very good. 
  • Naval Trade: Poor.
  • Architecture: Good.
  • Defenses:Good.

SPECIAL TECHNOLOGIES

• ST1
  • Name: .
  • History: 
  • Effect: 

• ST2
  • Name: .
  • History: 
  • Effect: 

For a wonder i think one of the palace or temple buildings at Al Khanoum could be used.

[celtic reference]

7 hours ago, Genava55 said:

There are several statues of this kind in Southern Gaul, close to the Mediterranean Sea. This is due to the influence of the Iberians and of the Etruscans, maybe because of the Elisyces described by Herodotus. However, they cannot be more recent than the 5th century BC, after that the La Tène culture overwhelm the region. They could be incorporated as mercenaries or regional units but that's all. This is not really Gallic, their Celtic character is not sure, this is why I don't rely a lot on the material found in Entremont and Roquepertuse that much. Those are local particularities.

https://musee-fenaille.rodezagglo.fr/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/dossier-de-presse-celtes-final-web.pdf

The text says it was a leather cuirass with a cardiophylax rather than a solid cuirass; might be a reference for Viridomarus ?

Some examples:

Etruscans and Romans:

E

     EB Picenian warriors with leather armor:

Illyrian:

 

[celtic reference]

@Genava55 A Gallic statue of unclear date, depicting a cuirass with a distinct pattern (Bronze age holdover ? Import from Romans ?) :

https://www.ancient.eu/image/10811/warrior-of-grezan/

[Civ: Macedonians]

On 5/1/2020 at 5:45 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

• General Craterus
  "Taxiarchès" aura: Pike Infantry +20% attack and +20% capture within 30 meters of him.
  Can upgrade to mounted version, with extra health, speed, and trample effects.
   
   
• Demetrius the Besieger
  "Poliorkḗtēs The Besieger" aura: Siege Engines +15% range and +10 crush attack during his lifetime.
  Can upgrade to mounted version, with extra health, speed, and trample effects.
   

 

Perhaps Demetrius should have the iron armor, and Craterus the bronze scale one ?

From Plutarch's lives:

Quote

For his use in this war there were brought to Demetrius from Cyprus two iron coats of mail, each of which weighed only forty pounds. Wishing to show their strength and power of resistance, Zoilus their maker gave orders that a catapult's missile should be shot at one of them from a distance of twenty paces, and in the place where it struck the iron remained intact, although it did get a faint scratch, such as might be made by a graver.  This coat of mail Demetrius wore himself; the other was worn by Alcimus the Epeirot, the sturdiest and most warlike of all the men under him, and the only one whose suit of armour weighed a hundred pounds (the rest used suits of fifty pounds weight); he fell in battle at Rhodes near the theatre.

Mail in this translation is a old fashioned term for armor (Not chainmail).

[===[COMMITTED]=== Hellenic Helmets]

Silver plated iron helmet from Prodromi,  hard to classify:

 

Could be used for Epirote Hero Alexander II (At the moment using Phillip II as a placeholder).

[Ideas for New Civilizations [Core Game]]

5 hours ago, Paruru Slowlegs said:

I think, If you want to try promote "#addingnorseincore!", you probably should find enough germanic artifacts to designers from 5 B.C. to 5 A.D. (That is why we would not see slavs (to late) or veneti (to poor data) in-game.)

Cimbrians might be possible in the future, but not really Norse (They were a Celto-Germanic tribe from Jutland); and most reference would have to be drawn from Celts or later Germanics.

Iron age Scandinavia before the Vikings does not have much material and was quite isolated.

If he wants a African civ, he might be interested in the Kushites who are already in game.

[Greek Shield Factory]

7 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

 

 

Circlular shape around the shield, might be a depiction of a shield rim:

[Greek Shield Factory]

2 hours ago, Stan` said:

eye and orcomeno are a bit harder and the hardest would  be the purple one.

Purple is from Alcibiades.

I find the Hoplons with Boeotian shield painted on interesting; the coins i found are a bit unclear on whetever they are depicting a pattern on a round shield, or if actual Boeotian shields were still in use.

 

[Greek Shield Factory]

On 5/9/2020 at 3:09 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I noticed you gave the Athenian heroes much less interesting shield patterns. Themistocles just gets the standard champion shield and Pericles a generic blurry winged horse texture? 

Perhaps an eye shield for one of the Athenian heros ?

[===[COMMITTED]=== Celtic Unit Helmets]

5 hours ago, Genava55 said:

The last one is from River Sava in Croatia*, territory under the control of the Taurisci or of the Scordisci.

These tribes could also be represented as mercenaries (For Illyrians); it's interesting how ornate that helmet is compared to simpler Gaulish ones, and how it uses both iron and bronze.

On another topic, i was browsing your references for Przeworsk culture in another thread and saw this shield miniature; i guess it's possible for Lugii to use something like the Golasecca ''violin'' shield ?

Similar to:

 

[===[COMMITTED]=== Celtic Unit Helmets]

17 hours ago, Genava55 said:

https://www.facebook.com/Maziars.workshop/

 

 

These Eastern Port Helmets are very interesting, the last two seem to be made in a unique local style and not just imports or copies of Gaulish ones.

Would be good for Germanic Lugii mercenaries; or a Bastarnae unit for Scythians and Thracians.

[Wonder: Colossus of Rhodes]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

It could easily be a scenario or campaign or something in EA. Or the destruction of the colossus leaves a permanent rubble that can be mined for metal.

Rhodians and Pergamenes definitely probable for DE eventually.

Pergamon would be a easier faction to do than Rhodes in my opinion, more distinct from other greeks.

[Macedonian wonder]

On 4/22/2020 at 5:51 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'd vote for Palace at Pella. It's 100% Macedonian and not peripheral. Similar to why we want to take the Hanging Gardens from the Persians and give them something more Achaemenid (my vote here is for the Gate of All Nations). 

 

I'd love for the core game to ship with a bunch of famous ancient buildings, even if they aren't factional wonders. Altar of Pergamon would be awesome to have. Could even eventually have a "Capture the Wonder" game mode that includes these extra wonders in the game.

For DE i think the planned Theban wonder is the Cadmeia.

What do you think of the sanctuary at Dodona as a future Epirote wonder ?

 

Map of the sanctuary as it developed until roman times:

Quote 1: Acropole 2: Theater 3: Stadium 4: Bouleuterion 5: House of priests 6 and 7: Prytaneum and extension 8: Temple of Aphrodite 9: Roman building 10: Temple of Themis 11: “Crowned House” (Ἱερά Οἰκία) 12 and 13: New and old temple of Dione 14 and 15: temple and altar of Heracles 16: Christian basilica 17: West wall 18 and 19: New and old West gate

 

Bouleterion:

 

The Oracle: