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Posts posted by Ultimate Aurelian
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2 hours ago, Nescio said:
It's not impossible they had turrets. It's unclear when elephant turrets were exactly introduced, but it must have been at some point between 323 (death of Alexander) and 217 (Battle of Raphia).
Veddic texts mention war elephants, i am not sure if they say anything about towers tho.
It's possilbe that Curtius mentions Howdahs being used before that timeframe you mentioned
QuoteA passage from Roman historian Curtius describing the lifestyles of ancient Indian kings during the "Second urbanisation" (c. 600 – c. 200 BCE) rode on chariot mounted on elephants or howdahs when going on a distant expedition.[2]
Source on that statement is a Indian book from the 60s:
- Majumdar, R. C. (1960). The. Classical. Accounts.of. India. Calcutta: Firma K.L. Mukhopadhvay. p. 105.
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55 minutes ago, Genava55 said:
I agree:
Romans first encountered elephants in battle in 280 BCE, when Pyrrhus, king of the Greek region of Epirus, invaded Italy with an army of 25,000 men and 20 war elephants. The Romans recorded the appearance of the animals on some of the heavy bronze ingots they used as currency at the time. Pyrrhus established his base at the Greek city of Taras, which placed a small image of an elephant below a dolphin rider on its silver coinage.
I think Veddic text mention war elephants but i am not sure there is anything about towers.
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1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
Any advice and referencing for Epirote elephants?
According to Wikipedia they were loaned by Ptolemy II Philadelphus.
I think at the time the Ptolemies had both Indian and African Elephants, so could have been either or a mix of both.
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On 5/26/2020 at 12:08 AM, Carltonus said:
Double as an embassy for Ainu/Emishi mercenaries? Can be an Atlas mini-faction.
> Ainu Mercenary Spearman
> Ainu Priest (boost damage for melee units nearby)
> Ainu Champion Mercenary Two-Handed Swordsman?Jomon mercs could be featured indeeed, i think it might be better to use a separate mercenary camp; two handed swords (As posted by Genava above) first appear in the Kofun era and are not used by Jomon peoples.
Alongside with priest and spearman, perhaps a Jomon Poison Archer or maybe even make the slinger a mercenary.
Maybe a ''Korean'' (Baekje kingdom, who allied with Japan according to some sources) mercenary camp as well:
Baekje pirate swordsman
Unlocks mercenary medium ship (I'd say light ship does not need to be mercenary, the Yayoi had at least some naval capacity to be able to migrate from the mainland in large numbers).
If cavalry needs to be included for balance, a tech at the Baekje camp unlocks light horse archer.
Kumaso could be used too but we know very little about then, other than that they had some relation with bears due to their names (A few theories say they were Austronesians, or may have been a branch of the Jomon with the name coming from bear worship like the Ainu.)
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1 hour ago, Carltonus said:
Think I can come up with a unit roster since no one called for such (this may be edited over time):
Village (Mura) phase:
Civic Center (?), morphed into the Yayoi style at Town phase
> Japanese Woman (Womina/Omina, depending on orthography)
> Pikeman Citizen (Yarituki/Yaritsuki); shorter attack range than the Hellenistic counterparts, a bit more than usual Spearman
> Archer Citizen (Ite)Barracks (?)
> Pikeman Citizen (Yarituki/Yaritsuki)
> Swordsman Citizen (?)
> Archer Citizen (Ite)Dock (Tu/Tsu?)
> Fishing boat (Turipune/Tsurifune)Town (Mati/Machi, depending on orthography) phase:
Temple (Yasirö/Yashiro)
> Shrine priest (Nusi/Nushi)
> Shrine priestess (Miko)Smithy (?)
> Battering ram (?, gameplay purposes)Market (Iti/Ichi)
> Merchant (Akinapi/Akinai)Dock (Tu/Tsu?)
> Trading ship (Akinapibune/Akinaibune)
> Mercenary Chinese light warship (Wopune/Ofune)City (Kuni) phase:
Civic Center (?)
> Jimmu (Kamuyamatö Iparebiko), Archer Hero
> Himiko (Pimiko), Healer Heroine
> ? (?), Archer/Spearman/Swordsman Hero?Fortress (Sirö/Shiro)
> Spearman Champion (?)
> Swordsman Champion (?)
> Archer Champion (?)Dock (Tu/Tsu?)
> Mercenary Chinese medium warship (Opobune/Ōbune)Wonder (?), probably Izumo Grand Shrine (Idumo Opoyasirö/Izumo Taisha)
Empire (Opokuni/Ōkuni) phase, for Delenda Est:
(Suggestions? Kofun era? A stable that hires Champion/Citizen cavalry spearman and archer?)
I'd replace the citizen swordsman with a citizen axeman, maybe also have a slinger (Jomon used slings).
Third hero could be Yamato Takeru
Maybe replace Jinmu with king Suisho or emperor Keiko; Jinmu may be a bit out of the timeline since he is said to have been born at 660 b.c (Yayoi period is usually said to have begun at 300 b.c, but some argue for 800 b.c or even 1000.bc).
I am not sure if Kofun should be the same civ, since Imperial Romans are a separate civ from Republic.
For the fortress you would have to speculate a little, it could be a hill fort with a earthwork palisade:
QuoteThe first fortifications in Japan were hardly what one generally associates with the term "castles". Made primarily of earthworks, or rammed earth, and wood, the earliest fortifications made far greater use of natural defences and topography than anything man-made. These kōgoishi and chashi (チャシ, for Ainu castles) were never intended to be long-term defensive positions, let alone residences; the native peoples of the archipelago built fortifications when they were needed and abandoned the sites afterwards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_castle#Early_fortifications
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Just now, Sundiata said:
Yeah, something like that. Swahili, but without the fancy domes. For the record though, the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea already indicates a relationship between the Swahili Coast (named "Azania" in classical sources, and Southern Arabia, as early as the 1st century AD. Of course, it would have been very different from the later muslim Arabia and classical Swahili culture, but still worth a note.
Yes, Islamic architecture is different from earlier Arabia; mostly due to Persian and Byzantine influence.
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3 hours ago, Sundiata said:
I believe it was built from coral stone, and would have looked like some proto-Swahili type architecture.
So something like medieval Swahili architecture but without the middle eastern influences ?
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1 hour ago, m7600 said:
Could be. It was known as Tyrian purple or Phoenician Red. The Greek name was πορφύρα transliterated as porphúra, the latin name is purpura.
On the other hand, it's possible that our knowledge of pigment production in Antiquity is incomplete. Perhaps the "barbarians" knew a way of producing purple using other materials, like flowers.Perhaps there were other pigments in a shade closer to red or blue, considered less valuable due to being less bright and fading quicker.
BTW not saying it is a accurate game, but i guess that's why RTW gave the Germans that weird pink color (When i first saw that i was like ''What, did they run out of colors ?).
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1 hour ago, m7600 said:
Sorry to intrude here, but I just wanted to say that purple was a really expensive color before the Modern Era. They had to get the purple pigments from sea snails. I don't recall the exact numbers, but they had to crush hundreds of those snails to get just a tiny amount of pigments. Only royalty could afford purple clothes.
Perhaps the author meant a dark red shade ?
Latin colors names can be a bit confusing (Like the discussion on Augustus' hair color), it seems that the snails could also produce a variety red or blue hues not just purple.
This is a depiction of a festival with men wearing the toga praetexta; described by ancient authors as having a purple stripe (Looks like red for modern eyes):
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@Genava55 Is it possible for them to use torcs ?
QuoteThey are particularly delighted by gifts from neighbouring tribes, which are sent not only by individuals but also by the state, such as choice steeds, heavy armour, trappings, and neckchains.
The original Latin version uses the term '' phalerae torquesque''.
Tacitus also say Germanic women did not cover arms or breasts and wore purple.
QuoteThe women have the same dress as the men, except that they generally wrap themselves in linen garments, which they embroider with purple, and do not lengthen out the upper part of their clothing into sleeves. The upper and lower arm is thus bare, and the nearest part of the bosom is also exposed
Not sure if that is true; perhaps he was basing his description on ceremonial costume ?
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7 hours ago, Genava55 said:
There is also evidence in Tacitus account for pastoralist nomadism in their societies.
Goths could have the no- territory nomadic gameplay.
Suebians could have weak buildings and ox carts like nomads but still have territory (Early germanics did not migrate as far, Tacitus says tribes where proud of how much empty land surrounded their settlements.) .
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5 minutes ago, Obskiuras said:
Just what i was thinking. I suggest it because at that time the goths did not build cities, they builds camps or something similar to settlements.
Yes, although they did form kingdoms later on from existing roman cities (Perhaps stone wall in phase IV like Sparta ?).
On heroes maybe Alaric, Fritigern and Theodoric I, for Visigoths;while Ostrogoths get Ardaric, Odoacer, and Theodoric the Great.
Ostrogoth wonder could be Theodoric's Mausoleum, for Visigoths i can't find much (Maybe Reccopolis Basilica ?).
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2 hours ago, m7600 said:
@Ultimate Aurelian Either way, it would be necessary to ground them in a particular, historical faction.
Yes of course, Voodoo is not really tied to the Nok culture.
Azanians (Early inhabitants of the Swahili coast, they cities are mentioned in the Periplus of the Erythrean Sea) could be another minor civ, i suggested to add Rhapta in the thread for the new south Africa map.
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6 hours ago, Obskiuras said:
I have a suggestion for the Goths faction, @wowgetoffyourcellphone being a nomadic faction we could make it a militar colony like the one that the Seleucids and Ptolemies have.
Military colony is a very hellenistic thing but it would be possible to have a similar building with different name.
Maybe do like my above suggestion for Suebians, and have great hall UB where they can choose some regional mercs (Saxons, Franks, Vandals, Steppe raiders, romanized foederati etc.) perhaps train heros as well.
One thing to settle is how the Ostrogoth/Visigoth divide is implemented (At the start like Hyrule Conquest ? two different techs for reaching the next phase ?).
1 hour ago, Obskiuras said:Looks great, the shingle roof on the old version was a bit vikingish and not very fitting for Suebians.
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1 hour ago, m7600 said:
But would you still call the civ "Voodoo"? I understand your point, but look at it this way: we don't know much about the Ancient Picts either, but we wouldn't call them "Pagans", we simply call them "Picts", even if they didn't call themselves this.
My point was not that the civ should be called Voodoo, just that a civ from that area would be hard to implement due to lack of material before the middle ages.
The Nok culture is the most well known one, could be a mini civ in the future (Perhaps a African map with some neutral Nok settlements and mercenaries).
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1 hour ago, m7600 said:
To be honest, "Voodoo" doesn't sound right for an Ancient African civ. This is because Voodoo is a religion, not a group of people. In fact, there is no single version of Voodoo, there are many of them, practiced by different peoples. It would be the same as if you made a European civ and you called them "Pagans". There were many different pagan groups and they were all different. For example, Ancient Romans and Gauls would both qualify as pagans, but they were completely different from each other. If you want more African civs in the core game, then a much better candidate would be Garamantes, or Numidians. If you search through the forums, you will find more info on them.
Voodoo originated in West Africa, an area who we know very little about in the time of 0 a.d.
Alongside with Garamantes or Numidians, you could also have proto-Aksumites (Kingdom of D'mt).
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Interesting Spartan statues from the comic book Three:
Dioscuri
The ''Chained Ares''
Statue of Aphrodite holding a spear
For Epirus other than Herakles; you could have a statue of Zeus since there was a large sanctuary dedicated to him at Dodona, or Achilles (Locally known as Aspetos, he was worshipped in Epirus and the royal line claimed to originate from him.).
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20 hours ago, Genava55 said:
Elephant Size in Antiquity - DNA Evidence and the Battle of Raphia
Good article.
On the topic of African Bush Elephants being ridden:
Based on what i read i don't think there is much of a reason to use Bush Elephant for Ptolemies.
Maybe for Kushites.
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On 1/21/2017 at 3:15 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
For champions, think really archaic. Maybe something like "Temple Guard" or "Palace Guard", and then maybe "Chariot Champion." Really give these Greek an old school feel. Bell cuirasses, Illyrian helms, barefeet, penis swag, dipylon and boeotian shields.
For heroes and maybe champions; it would be interesting to see heavy armor from later on the archaic period (Full panoply for heroes, champion has chance of having Mitra and/or Thigh guard):
Link to detailed pictures of additonal armour pieces:
https://br.pinterest.com/siresasa/ancient-greek-armour-only-historically-accurate/
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13 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
I think the transition for unarmored to fully armored is a bit jarring.
Elite foot archers could have only helmets with perhaps a small chance of armor; Horse archers would get some helmets at advanced rank and be armored at elite.
My understanding is that Steppe infantry was poorer and often levied from neighbouring peoples.
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3 hours ago, wackyserious said:
Several reconstructions and artist impressions show that these limb armors only protect frontal areas or sometimes the outer flanks of the limbs.
I am about to commit there textures for the Seleucid Dahae Horse Archer
What i meant to say was not that they'd cover the back; just that the armor could have ties on the back of the leg to hold it in place.
QuoteI will try to create actor concepts for lighter armored citizen cavalry.
At most some of the Elite ones could have a helmet (I think the elite persian foot archer has a helmet).
Also some Dahae Units from EB (Screenshots are a bit old):
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For bonuses i am thinking Heavenly Horses (Faster cavalry, maybe make them able to round up horses like with elephants) and Hill Country (Something like losing less territory, or buildings being harder to capture).
Team bonus could be the same as the Persians (Silk Road, benefits trade).
For special techs, Elephant Roundup, and Greco Buddhism (The later makes temples and healers heal faster, perhaps it could also make temples cheaper ?).
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4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
I think we should have to make choices. Etruscans (they can fight Gauls and Romans) and Judeans (to fight Seleucids and Romans) might make sense while the other maybe not. That's just my view.
Late Egyptians fought Cyrus the Great, the Lydians fought the Persians and neighbouring greek colonies; but i can see why these would be low priority.
I am interested in the Neo Assyrians but they don't fit neither bronze age or classical antiquity; there are Assyrians in Aristeia using Persian assets as placeholders (work in that mod seems to have stopped).
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30 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
Nope. There can still be a Part 2 (Bronze Age), Part 3 (Medieval Period), etc., all "0 A.D."
0 A.D. is the franchise. Empires Ascendant is the game.
Should we extend the part 1 timeline backwards too and include civs like Assyrians, pre-ptolemy egypt, Judah, Lydia and Etruscans ?
And make Part 2 pre bronze age collapse ?
45 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:Thanks! I think they'd have fewer variants per unit than other civs, but they wouldn't be completely uniform as depicted in films and TV.
Centurions and other higher ranking troops would try to stand out for sure.
On another note, alongside with the current champion sword cavalry; perhaps a champion ''proto cataphract'' spear cavalry with masked helmet and limb protection ?
Some Principate cataphracts from Osprey:
Spoiler(1) Romano-Egyptian heavily armoured cavalryman, 31 BC.
This figure is copied from part of the famous monument to a
senior naval officer of the time of Marcus Antonius, now in the
Vatican museum, and from the Mausoleum of the Titeci near
Lake Fucinus. He probably represents a member of the
kataphraktoi of the Eastern allies of Cleopatra and M. Antonius,
or perhaps even a member of their bodyguard. Note the
helmet with wide cheek-guards partly protecting the face; the
thorax stadios (‘muscled’ or anatomical) cuirass; the shield of
scutum type, and the three javelins. Hidden here, his right arm
would be covered with articulated ‘hoop’ armour.
(2) Romano-Thracian cataphract; Chatalka, c. AD 75−100
The armoured cavalryman from the Chatalka burial in Bulgaria
may have worn what Arwidson calls ‘belt armour’ – a
combination of iron plates, scales and splints in the Iranian
tradition. The neck is protected by a thick iron gorget, following
the Thracian–Macedonian style; it was made in two pieces
connected by a strap, and the outer surface was originally
painted red. Surviving individual rings show that it was worn
over a separate ringmail collar. Note his magnificent masked
helmet (see reconstructions on pages 8-9). The Chatalka burial
also included a beautiful sword of Chinese type.
Spoiler(1) Sarmatian cataphract; Adygeia, c. 110 AD
Archaeological finds at the Gorodoskoy farm site on the
ancient Pontic steppes in Adygeia (Russian Federation)
revealed the impressive armour of a true Sarmatian
cataphractus, a prototype for the Roman armoured contarius.
He wears a segmented iron spangenhelm with an attached
scale aventail; the skull consists of four vertical pieces with the
space between filled with horizontal strips, as depicted on
Trajan’s Column. The height of the occupant of the grave was
about 1.7m (5ft 6in), and the superb ringmail coat was up to
1.5m long (4ft 11in). At the top it fastened with buckles to the
scale aventail. At the bottom it was divided into two flaps,
allowing the wearer to sit on a horse with ease; the flaps were
wrapped around the legs like trousers, being fastened in this
position above the knee and on the shins with wide ringmail
strips. Because of the poor preservation of the recovered
armour the length of the sleeves is not clear, but given the
degree of easy movement that would be required to wield the
swords and javelins found in such graves we assume that they
ended at the elbows. He carries a long spatha-type sword, but
his main weapon is the very long contus sarmaticus.
(2) Decurio of Ala Prima Gallorum et Pannoniorum
catafractata, 2nd century AD
The reconstruction of this junior officer is based on the studies
of Gamber. He proposes that the chamfron found at Newstead,
Scotland, and other recovered fragments of leather horse
armour decorated with rivets, give an idea of the appearance
of the mounts used by the early Roman cataphracts. The
decurion’s personal armour is reconstructed from Pannonian
gravestones and archaeological finds; the troopers also could
wear decorated helmets like this Trajanic or Hadrianic example
from Brza Palanka, and bronze ocreae (greaves). We have
completed him with full-length ‘hooped’ articulated arm
protection (the galerus), a cavalry spatha and the contus.
(3) Praefectus of an Ala catafractata, late 2nd century AD
This unit commander is largely reconstructed from the horseman
balteus decoration from Trecenta in the Veneto region of northeast
Italy. The officers of the cataphracts wore beautiful decorated
helmets of Hellenic taste, here copied from an open-mask
specimen ex-Axel Guttman collection (AG451). He is wearing a
composite armour formed by a thorax stadios and laminae
vertically disposed around the lower trunk, following the system
of the Iranian ‘belt armour’, and copper-alloy greaves. Gamber
proposes the mace as an officer’s weapon, which may be
confirmed by a specimen found in Dura Europos associated with
cavalry finds, and by the fighting position of the cavalryman
represented on the Trecenta balteus fitting. A regimental
commander’s horse equipment would be suitably magnificent;
decorated pectoral protections with embossed figures, and
partial bronze chamfrons with eye-protectors, have been found
near Brescia, Turin, Vienna and in other localities.Spoiler(1) Osrhoenian heavy cavalry sagittarius, army of Severus Alexander; Gallia, AD 235
According to Herodian, Severus Alexander had brought with
him for his Rhine frontier campaign a large force of archers from
the East including from Osrhoene, together with Parthian deserters
and mercenaries. The horse-archers included heavy armoured units;
shooting from well beyond the range of the Germans’ weapons,
they did great execution among their unarmoured adversaries.
We have given this soldier some Roman equipment found in
north German bogs, such as the mask helmet from Thorsbjerg
and the ringmail shirt from Vimose, integrated with clothing and
fittings from Parthian and Hatrene paintings. Iconography
(e.g. synagogue painting from Dura), and graffiti suggest that
the composite bow and a quiver would have been carried slung
from the saddle behind the right leg, convenient for the right hand.
(2) Cataphractarius of Ala Firma catafractaria, army of
Maximinus Thrax; Germania, AD 235
Reconstructed from the stele of the Saluda brothers, he has rich
equipment from the Rhine area: a Mainz-Heddernheim style
helmet; bronze scale armour from Mainz; and highly decorated
greaves embossed with a representation of the god Mars, from
Speyer. His weapons and related fittings (spatha, baldric, contus)
are copied from finds around Mainz, Nydam, and the Vimose
bogs, where a lot of captured Roman equipment relating to the
campaigns of Severus Alexander and Maximinus was found. The
armour of his horse has been reconstructed from the lesserknown
third trapper found in Dura Europos, made of copper-alloy
scales, although the prometopidion (chamfron) is from
Heddernheim. Under it the horse wears the equine harness from
Nydam, including a brown leather muzzle with a bronze boss and
fastened with bridle-chains to the rings of the bit.
(3) Clibanarius of a Numerus Palmyrenorum; Dura Europos,
mid-3rd century AD
This ‘super-heavy’ cavalryman is reconstructed from the
famous clibanarius graffito at Dura Europos (Tower 17). Note
his conical mask helmet, and laminated armour covering
torso, legs and arms. The limb defences consisted mainly of
plates overlapping upwards, as required to throw off enemy
spears running up the left arm, unprotected by a shield.
Composite scale-and-plate armour similar to Iranian or
Palmyrene models, as portrayed in the graffito, covers the
trunk. Thigh protection was often associated with greaves,
and was found at Dura made of copper alloy and lined with
linen. His mount is stronger than the usual Arab breeds, and is
protected by the iron-scale trapper – described in the text as
number (2) – found at Dura.
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War Elephants
in Art Development
Posted · Edited by Ultimate Aurelian
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015008158407&view=1up&seq=321
It is a elephant drawn chariot, the article calling it a tower was misinterpreting.
Another passage on Porus elephants: