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Ultimate Aurelian

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Posts posted by Ultimate Aurelian

  1. 5 hours ago, Nescio said:

    Please provide a clear reference.

    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015008158407&view=1up&seq=321

    Quote

    He rides in a chariot drawn by elephants and the entire bodies of such huge brutes are covered with gold

    It is a elephant drawn chariot, the article calling it a tower was misinterpreting.

    Another passage on Porus elephants:

    Quote

    The Macedonians were checked for a time, by the sight not only of the elephants but of the king himself.  The beasts, stationed   between lines of armed men, at a distance looked like towers , while Porus himself had almost exceeded the measure of human stature "; the beast on which he rode seemed to add to his height, since it rose as much higher than the others.

     

    • Like 1
  2. 2 hours ago, Nescio said:

    It's not impossible they had turrets. It's unclear when elephant turrets were exactly introduced, but it must have been at some point between 323 (death of Alexander) and 217 (Battle of Raphia).

    Veddic texts mention war elephants, i am not sure if they say anything about towers tho.

    It's possilbe that Curtius mentions Howdahs being used before that timeframe you mentioned

    Quote

    A passage from Roman historian Curtius describing the lifestyles of ancient Indian kings during the "Second urbanisation" (c. 600 – c. 200 BCE) rode on chariot mounted on elephants or howdahs when going on a distant expedition.[2]

    Source on that statement is a Indian book from the 60s:

    • Majumdar, R. C. (1960). The. Classical. Accounts.of. India. Calcutta: Firma K.L. Mukhopadhvay. p. 105.
  3. 55 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

    I agree:

    Romans first encountered elephants in battle in 280 BCE, when Pyrrhus, king of the Greek region of Epirus, invaded Italy with an army of 25,000 men and 20 war elephants. The Romans recorded the appearance of the animals on some of the heavy bronze ingots they used as currency at the time. Pyrrhus established his base at the Greek city of Taras, which placed a small image of an elephant below a dolphin rider on its silver coinage.

    ele6

    https://coinweek.com/ancient-coins/elephants-ancient-coins/

    I think Veddic text mention war elephants but i am not sure there is anything about towers.

  4. 1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

    Any advice and referencing for Epirote elephants? 

    According to Wikipedia they were loaned by Ptolemy II Philadelphus.

    I think at the time the Ptolemies had both Indian and African Elephants, so could have been either or a mix of both.

  5. On 5/26/2020 at 12:08 AM, Carltonus said:

    Double as an embassy for Ainu/Emishi mercenaries? Can be an Atlas mini-faction.

    > Ainu Mercenary Spearman
    > Ainu Priest (boost damage for melee units nearby)
    > Ainu Champion Mercenary Two-Handed Swordsman?

    Jomon mercs could be featured indeeed, i think it might be better to use a separate mercenary camp; two handed swords (As posted by Genava above) first appear in the Kofun era and are not used by Jomon peoples.

    Alongside with priest and spearman, perhaps a Jomon Poison Archer or maybe even make the slinger a mercenary.

     

    Maybe a ''Korean'' (Baekje kingdom, who allied with Japan according to some sources) mercenary camp as well:

    Baekje pirate swordsman

    Unlocks mercenary medium ship (I'd say light ship does not need to be mercenary, the Yayoi had at least some naval capacity to be able to migrate from the mainland in large numbers).

    If cavalry needs to be included for balance, a tech at the Baekje camp unlocks light horse archer.

     

    Kumaso could be used too but we know very little about then, other than that they had some relation with bears due to their names (A few theories say they were Austronesians, or may have been a branch of the Jomon with the name coming from bear worship like the Ainu.)

    • Like 1
    • Thanks 1
  6. 1 hour ago, Carltonus said:

    Think I can come up with a unit roster since no one called for such (this may be edited over time):

    Village (Mura) phase:

    Civic Center (?), morphed into the Yayoi style at Town phase
    > Japanese Woman (Womina/Omina, depending on orthography)
    > Pikeman Citizen (Yarituki/Yaritsuki); shorter attack range than the Hellenistic counterparts, a bit more than usual Spearman
    > Archer Citizen (Ite)

    Barracks (?)
    > Pikeman Citizen (Yarituki/Yaritsuki)
    > Swordsman Citizen (?)
    > Archer Citizen (Ite)

    Dock (Tu/Tsu?)
    > Fishing boat (Turipune/Tsurifune)

    Town (Mati/Machi, depending on orthography) phase:

    Temple (Yasirö/Yashiro)
    > Shrine priest (Nusi/Nushi)
    > Shrine priestess (Miko)

    Smithy (?)
    > Battering ram (?, gameplay purposes)

    Market (Iti/Ichi)
    > Merchant (Akinapi/Akinai)

    Dock (Tu/Tsu?)
    > Trading ship (Akinapibune/Akinaibune)
    > Mercenary Chinese light warship (Wopune/Ofune)

    City (Kuni) phase:

    Civic Center (?)
    > Jimmu (Kamuyamatö Iparebiko), Archer Hero
    > Himiko (Pimiko), Healer Heroine
    > ? (?), Archer/Spearman/Swordsman Hero?

    Fortress (Sirö/Shiro)
    > Spearman Champion (?)
    > Swordsman Champion (?)
    > Archer Champion (?)

    Dock (Tu/Tsu?)
    > Mercenary Chinese medium warship (Opobune/Ōbune)

    Wonder (?), probably Izumo Grand Shrine (Idumo Opoyasirö/Izumo Taisha)

    Empire (Opokuni/Ōkuni) phase, for Delenda Est:

    (Suggestions? Kofun era? A stable that hires Champion/Citizen cavalry spearman and archer?)

    I'd replace the citizen swordsman with a citizen axeman, maybe also have a slinger (Jomon used slings).

    Third hero could be Yamato Takeru

    Maybe replace Jinmu with king Suisho or emperor Keiko; Jinmu may be a bit out of the timeline since he is said to have been born at 660 b.c (Yayoi period is usually said to have begun at 300 b.c, but some argue for 800 b.c or even 1000.bc).

    I am not sure if Kofun should be the same civ, since Imperial Romans are a separate civ from Republic.

    For the fortress you would have to speculate a little, it could be a hill fort with a earthwork palisade:

    Quote

    The first fortifications in Japan were hardly what one generally associates with the term "castles". Made primarily of earthworks, or rammed earth, and wood, the earliest fortifications made far greater use of natural defences and topography than anything man-made. These kōgoishi and chashi (チャシ, for Ainu castles) were never intended to be long-term defensive positions, let alone residences; the native peoples of the archipelago built fortifications when they were needed and abandoned the sites afterwards.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_castle#Early_fortifications

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chashi

    • Thanks 1
  7. Just now, Sundiata said:

    Yeah, something like that. Swahili, but without the fancy domes. For the record though, the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea already indicates a relationship between the Swahili Coast (named "Azania" in classical sources, and Southern Arabia, as early as the 1st century AD. Of course, it would have been very different from the later muslim Arabia and classical Swahili culture, but still worth a note. 

    Yes, Islamic architecture is different from earlier Arabia; mostly due to Persian and Byzantine influence.

    • Like 1
  8. 1 hour ago, m7600 said:

    Could be. It was known as Tyrian purple or Phoenician Red. The Greek name was πορφύρα transliterated as porphúra, the latin name is purpura. 
    On the other hand, it's possible that our knowledge of pigment production in Antiquity is incomplete. Perhaps the "barbarians" knew a way of producing purple using other materials, like flowers.

    Perhaps there were other pigments in a shade closer to red or blue, considered less valuable due to being less bright and fading quicker.

    BTW not saying it is a accurate game, but i guess that's why RTW gave the Germans that weird pink color (When i first saw that i was like ''What, did they run out of colors ?).

  9. 1 hour ago, m7600 said:

    Sorry to intrude here, but I just wanted to say that purple was a really expensive color before the Modern Era. They had to get the purple pigments from sea snails. I don't recall the exact numbers, but they had to crush hundreds of those snails to get just a tiny amount of pigments. Only royalty could afford purple clothes.

    Perhaps the author meant a dark red shade ?

    Latin colors names can be a bit confusing (Like the discussion on Augustus' hair color), it seems that the snails could also produce a variety red or blue hues not just purple.

    This is a depiction of a festival with men wearing the toga praetexta; described by ancient authors as having a purple stripe (Looks like red for modern eyes):

    Compitalia_fresco.jpg

    • Like 1
  10. @Genava55 Is it possible for them to use torcs ?

    Quote

    They are particularly delighted by gifts from neighbouring tribes, which are sent not only by individuals but also by the state, such as choice steeds, heavy armour, trappings, and neckchains.

    The original Latin version uses the term '' phalerae torquesque''.

    Tacitus also say Germanic women did not cover arms or breasts and wore purple.

    Quote

    The women have the same dress as the men, except that they generally wrap themselves in linen garments, which they embroider with purple, and do not lengthen out the upper part of their clothing into sleeves. The upper and lower arm is thus bare, and the nearest part of the bosom is also exposed

    Not sure if that is true; perhaps he was basing his description on ceremonial costume  ?

     

  11. 7 hours ago, Genava55 said:

    There is also evidence in Tacitus account for pastoralist nomadism in their societies.

    Goths could have the no- territory nomadic gameplay.

    Suebians could have weak buildings and ox carts like nomads but  still have territory (Early germanics did not migrate as far, Tacitus says tribes where proud of how much empty land surrounded their settlements.) .

    • Like 1
  12. 5 minutes ago, Obskiuras said:

    Just what i was thinking. I suggest it because at that time the goths did not build cities, they builds camps or something similar to settlements.

    Yes, although they did form kingdoms later on  from existing roman cities (Perhaps stone wall in phase IV like Sparta ?).

    On heroes maybe Alaric, Fritigern and Theodoric I, for Visigoths;while Ostrogoths get Ardaric, Odoacer, and Theodoric the Great.

    Ostrogoth wonder could be Theodoric's Mausoleum,  for Visigoths i can't find much (Maybe Reccopolis Basilica ?).

    • Like 1
  13. 2 hours ago, m7600 said:

    @Ultimate Aurelian Either way, it would be necessary to ground them in a particular, historical faction.

    Yes of course, Voodoo is not really tied to the Nok culture.

    Azanians (Early inhabitants of the Swahili coast, they cities are mentioned in the Periplus of the Erythrean Sea) could be another minor civ, i suggested to add Rhapta in the thread for the new south Africa map.

  14. 6 hours ago, Obskiuras said:

    I have a suggestion for the Goths faction, @wowgetoffyourcellphone being a nomadic faction we could make it a militar colony like the one that the Seleucids and Ptolemies have.

    Military colony is a very hellenistic thing but it would be possible to have a similar building with different name.

    Maybe do like my above suggestion for Suebians, and have great hall UB where they can choose some regional mercs (Saxons, Franks, Vandals, Steppe raiders, romanized foederati etc.) perhaps train heros as well.

    One thing to settle is how the Ostrogoth/Visigoth divide is implemented (At the start like Hyrule Conquest ? two different techs for reaching the next phase ?).

    1 hour ago, Obskiuras said:

    Suebian especial buiding

    img095.thumb.jpg.055881a3b511a3b990fecf543c0eac8a.jpg

    Looks great, the shingle roof on the old version was a bit vikingish and not very fitting for Suebians.

    • Like 1
  15. 1 hour ago, m7600 said:

    But would you still call the civ "Voodoo"? I understand your point, but look at it this way: we don't know much about the Ancient Picts either, but we wouldn't call them "Pagans", we simply call them "Picts", even if they didn't call themselves this.

    My point was not that the civ should be called Voodoo,  just that a civ from that area would be hard to implement due to lack of material before the middle ages.

    The  Nok culture is the most well known one, could be a mini civ in the future (Perhaps a African map with some neutral Nok settlements and mercenaries).

    • Like 1
  16. 1 hour ago, m7600 said:

    To be honest, "Voodoo" doesn't sound right for an Ancient African civ. This is because Voodoo is a religion, not a group of people. In fact, there is no single version of Voodoo, there are many of them, practiced by different peoples. It would be the same as if you made a European civ and you called them "Pagans". There were many different pagan groups and they were all different. For example, Ancient Romans and Gauls would both qualify as pagans, but they were completely different from each other. If you want more African civs in the core game, then a much better candidate would be Garamantes, or Numidians. If you search through the forums, you will find more info on them.

    Voodoo originated in West Africa, an area who we know very little about in the time of 0 a.d.

    Alongside with Garamantes or Numidians,  you could also  have proto-Aksumites (Kingdom of D'mt).

    • Like 2
  17. @wowgetoffyourcellphone

    Interesting Spartan statues from the comic book Three:

    Dioscuri

    RCO046_1583398511.thumb.jpg.f5d6f6eafed1cd93a3017b0762317a39.jpg

    The ''Chained Ares''

    RCO050_1583398511.thumb.jpg.a91c705e262e70a20ce0aa2d7feb1328.jpg

    Statue of Aphrodite holding a spear

    RCO064_1583398511.thumb.jpg.716f7969907c532d39496041af2b45bc.jpg

     

    For Epirus other than Herakles; you could have a statue of Zeus since there was a large sanctuary dedicated to him at Dodona, or Achilles (Locally known as Aspetos, he was worshipped in Epirus and the royal line claimed to originate from him.).

    • Thanks 1
  18. On 1/21/2017 at 3:15 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

    For champions, think really archaic. Maybe something like "Temple Guard" or "Palace Guard", and then maybe "Chariot Champion." Really give these Greek an old school feel. Bell cuirasses, Illyrian helms, barefeet, penis swag, dipylon and boeotian shields.

    For heroes and maybe champions; it would be interesting to see heavy armor from later on the archaic period (Full panoply for heroes, champion has chance of having Mitra and/or Thigh guard):

    1460928915001.jpg

    b4cfb18133674b557dcbd40c0de84e73--corinthian-helmet-greek-history.jpg

    f3d1238424e7834c9d889391897109f7.jpg

    archaicgreeks.jpg

    ArmorC.jpg

    Link to detailed pictures of additonal armour pieces:

    https://br.pinterest.com/siresasa/ancient-greek-armour-only-historically-accurate/

     

  19. 13 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

    I can show you what I'm doing for DE, just for reference. It can certainly be improved.

    scythian_archers_bae.thumb.jpg.dd85d33e046a221195050ea6bb084093.jpg

    I think the transition for unarmored to fully armored is a bit jarring.

    Elite foot archers could have only helmets with perhaps a small chance of armor; Horse archers would get some helmets at advanced rank and be armored at elite.

    My understanding is that Steppe infantry was poorer and often levied from neighbouring peoples.

  20. 3 hours ago, wackyserious said:

    Several reconstructions and artist impressions show that these limb armors only protect frontal areas or sometimes the outer flanks of the limbs.

    I am about to commit there textures for the Seleucid Dahae Horse Archer

    What i meant to say was not that they'd cover the back; just that the armor could have ties on the back of the leg to hold it in place.

    Quote

    I will try to create actor concepts for lighter armored citizen cavalry.

    At most some of the Elite ones could have a helmet (I think the elite persian foot archer has a helmet).

    Also some Dahae Units from EB (Screenshots are a bit old):

    YpElHUE.jpg

    Gc1rDh6.jpg

    • Thanks 1
  21. For bonuses i am thinking Heavenly Horses (Faster cavalry, maybe make them able to round up horses like with elephants) and Hill Country (Something like losing less territory, or buildings being harder to capture).

     

    Team bonus could be the same as the Persians (Silk Road, benefits trade).

     

    For special techs,  Elephant Roundup, and Greco Buddhism (The later makes temples and healers heal faster, perhaps it could also make temples cheaper ?).

    • Like 2
  22. 4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

    I think we should have to make choices. Etruscans (they can fight Gauls and Romans) and Judeans (to fight Seleucids and Romans) might make sense while the other maybe not. That's just my view.

    Late Egyptians fought Cyrus the Great, the Lydians fought the Persians and neighbouring greek colonies; but i can see why these would be low priority.

    I am interested in the Neo Assyrians but they don't fit neither bronze age or classical antiquity; there are Assyrians in Aristeia using Persian assets as placeholders (work in that mod seems to have stopped).

     

  23. 30 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

    Nope. There can still be a Part 2 (Bronze Age), Part 3 (Medieval Period), etc., all "0 A.D." 

    0 A.D. is the franchise. Empires Ascendant is the game.

     

    Should we extend the part 1 timeline backwards too and include civs  like Assyrians, pre-ptolemy egypt, Judah, Lydia and Etruscans ?

    And make Part 2 pre bronze age collapse ?

    45 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

    Thanks! I think they'd have fewer variants per unit than other civs, but they wouldn't be completely uniform as depicted in films and TV.

    Centurions and other higher ranking troops would try to stand out for sure.

    On another note, alongside with the current champion sword cavalry; perhaps a champion ''proto cataphract'' spear cavalry with masked helmet and limb protection ?

    Some Principate cataphracts from Osprey:

    Spoiler

    Ra1yPJs.jpg

    (1) Romano-Egyptian heavily armoured cavalryman, 31 BC.

    This figure is copied from part of the famous monument to a
    senior naval officer of the time of Marcus Antonius, now in the
    Vatican museum, and from the Mausoleum of the Titeci near
    Lake Fucinus. He probably represents a member of the
    kataphraktoi of the Eastern allies of Cleopatra and M. Antonius,
    or perhaps even a member of their bodyguard. Note the
    helmet with wide cheek-guards partly protecting the face; the
    thorax stadios (‘muscled’ or anatomical) cuirass; the shield of
    scutum type, and the three javelins. Hidden here, his right arm
    would be covered with articulated ‘hoop’ armour.

    (2) Romano-Thracian cataphract; Chatalka, c. AD 75−100

    The armoured cavalryman from the Chatalka burial in Bulgaria
    may have worn what Arwidson calls ‘belt armour’ – a
    combination of iron plates, scales and splints in the Iranian
    tradition. The neck is protected by a thick iron gorget, following
    the Thracian–Macedonian style; it was made in two pieces
    connected by a strap, and the outer surface was originally
    painted red. Surviving individual rings show that it was worn
    over a separate ringmail collar. Note his magnificent masked
    helmet (see reconstructions on pages 8-9). The Chatalka burial
    also included a beautiful sword of Chinese type.
     

     

    Spoiler

    aNAOUWX.jpg

    (1) Sarmatian cataphract; Adygeia, c. 110 AD

    Archaeological finds at the Gorodoskoy farm site on the
    ancient Pontic steppes in Adygeia (Russian Federation)
    revealed the impressive armour of a true Sarmatian
    cataphractus, a prototype for the Roman armoured contarius.
    He wears a segmented iron spangenhelm with an attached
    scale aventail; the skull consists of four vertical pieces with the
    space between filled with horizontal strips, as depicted on
    Trajan’s Column. The height of the occupant of the grave was
    about 1.7m (5ft 6in), and the superb ringmail coat was up to
    1.5m long (4ft 11in). At the top it fastened with buckles to the
    scale aventail. At the bottom it was divided into two flaps,
    allowing the wearer to sit on a horse with ease; the flaps were
    wrapped around the legs like trousers, being fastened in this
    position above the knee and on the shins with wide ringmail
    strips. Because of the poor preservation of the recovered
    armour the length of the sleeves is not clear, but given the
    degree of easy movement that would be required to wield the
    swords and javelins found in such graves we assume that they
    ended at the elbows. He carries a long spatha-type sword, but
    his main weapon is the very long contus sarmaticus.

    (2) Decurio of Ala Prima Gallorum et Pannoniorum
    catafractata, 2nd century AD

    The reconstruction of this junior officer is based on the studies
    of Gamber. He proposes that the chamfron found at Newstead,
    Scotland, and other recovered fragments of leather horse
    armour decorated with rivets, give an idea of the appearance
    of the mounts used by the early Roman cataphracts. The
    decurion’s personal armour is reconstructed from Pannonian
    gravestones and archaeological finds; the troopers also could
    wear decorated helmets like this Trajanic or Hadrianic example
    from Brza Palanka, and bronze ocreae (greaves). We have
    completed him with full-length ‘hooped’ articulated arm
    protection (the galerus), a cavalry spatha and the contus.

    (3) Praefectus of an Ala catafractata, late 2nd century AD

    This unit commander is largely reconstructed from the horseman
    balteus decoration from Trecenta in the Veneto region of northeast
    Italy. The officers of the cataphracts wore beautiful decorated
    helmets of Hellenic taste, here copied from an open-mask
    specimen ex-Axel Guttman collection (AG451). He is wearing a
    composite armour formed by a thorax stadios and laminae
    vertically disposed around the lower trunk, following the system
    of the Iranian ‘belt armour’, and copper-alloy greaves. Gamber
    proposes the mace as an officer’s weapon, which may be
    confirmed by a specimen found in Dura Europos associated with
    cavalry finds, and by the fighting position of the cavalryman
    represented on the Trecenta balteus fitting. A regimental
    commander’s horse equipment would be suitably magnificent;
    decorated pectoral protections with embossed figures, and
    partial bronze chamfrons with eye-protectors, have been found
    near Brescia, Turin, Vienna and in other localities.

     

    Spoiler

    bUG7spK.jpg

    (1) Osrhoenian heavy cavalry sagittarius, army of Severus Alexander; Gallia, AD 235

    According to Herodian, Severus Alexander had brought with
    him for his Rhine frontier campaign a large force of archers from
    the East including from Osrhoene, together with Parthian deserters
    and mercenaries. The horse-archers included heavy armoured units;
    shooting from well beyond the range of the Germans’ weapons,
    they did great execution among their unarmoured adversaries.
    We have given this soldier some Roman equipment found in
    north German bogs, such as the mask helmet from Thorsbjerg
    and the ringmail shirt from Vimose, integrated with clothing and
    fittings from Parthian and Hatrene paintings. Iconography
    (e.g. synagogue painting from Dura), and graffiti suggest that
    the composite bow and a quiver would have been carried slung
    from the saddle behind the right leg, convenient for the right hand.

    (2) Cataphractarius of Ala Firma catafractaria, army of
    Maximinus Thrax; Germania, AD 235

    Reconstructed from the stele of the Saluda brothers, he has rich
    equipment from the Rhine area: a Mainz-Heddernheim style
    helmet; bronze scale armour from Mainz; and highly decorated
    greaves embossed with a representation of the god Mars, from
    Speyer. His weapons and related fittings (spatha, baldric, contus)
    are copied from finds around Mainz, Nydam, and the Vimose
    bogs, where a lot of captured Roman equipment relating to the
    campaigns of Severus Alexander and Maximinus was found. The
    armour of his horse has been reconstructed from the lesserknown
    third trapper found in Dura Europos, made of copper-alloy
    scales, although the prometopidion (chamfron) is from
    Heddernheim. Under it the horse wears the equine harness from
    Nydam, including a brown leather muzzle with a bronze boss and
    fastened with bridle-chains to the rings of the bit.

    (3) Clibanarius of a Numerus Palmyrenorum; Dura Europos,
    mid-3rd century AD

    This ‘super-heavy’ cavalryman is reconstructed from the
    famous clibanarius graffito at Dura Europos (Tower 17). Note
    his conical mask helmet, and laminated armour covering
    torso, legs and arms. The limb defences consisted mainly of
    plates overlapping upwards, as required to throw off enemy
    spears running up the left arm, unprotected by a shield.
    Composite scale-and-plate armour similar to Iranian or
    Palmyrene models, as portrayed in the graffito, covers the
    trunk. Thigh protection was often associated with greaves,
    and was found at Dura made of copper alloy and lined with
    linen. His mount is stronger than the usual Arab breeds, and is
    protected by the iron-scale trapper – described in the text as
    number (2) – found at Dura.
     

     

     

     

     

     

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