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Edwarf

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Posts posted by Edwarf

  6. Alpha 26 Pre-release/Release Candidate Build Testing

    in Game Development & Technical Discussion

    Posted

    Quick feedback on SVN 27003: (RC2)

    Persian don't have "conscription" and "levy" anymore, is it done in purpose ?
    Persian Cav archer champs are exactly the sames as Persian chariots champs. And for the same unlock price when you unlock persian cav archer champs you get also spear cav champs.
    Ptolemies are moved in the fort, it is no the same for seleucid, is it on purpose ?

     

    A26 - Quick Feedback

    in Balancing Discussions

    Posted

    Hello,

    Quick feedback about the balancing of the A26. (Not exhaustive)

     

    About the spear cav buff :

    • Spear Cav :
      • DPS = (4+3)/1.25 = 5.6 damage/s
      • (A26)DPS against cav =  (4+3)/1.25 * 2 = 11.2 damage/s
      • (A25)DPS against cav =  (4+3)/1.25 * 1.75 = 9.8 damage/s
    • Sword Cav :
      • DPS = 6.5/0.75 = 8.7 damage/s

    I think it make sense, we will see.

     

    Small regeneration to fruit and fish :

    I like the idea, but it would be great is the bushes didn't diseapear when the resources reach 0. The food collect will be a madness to optimise.

     

    Fire cav nerf :

    • Fire Cav :
      • DPS = 25/1.5 + 2*3 = 22.7 damage/s
    • Celtic Chariot :
      • DPS = 36/1.25 = 28.8 damage/s

    I think this nerf was too much, this unit was this only real strengh of the Ibers. Remember that Ibers don't have hero to increase the damage of the unit. Fire damage is nice but there is no upgrade for it. (the cost can be reduced thanks to Indibil but not worth making then anymore)

    In the other hand the celtic chariots remain with old stats and thay have a hero that can increase damage by 20%.
    I think if you nerf the fire cavs, nerf also the celtic chariots.

    Need to be tested.

     

    Adjust Kushite Pyramids to be more used :

    I really like the change, I like previous pyramids, I think like these new one.
    Waiting the same kind of change for some other buildings (Pillar of Ashoka)

     

    Increase the cost of mercenary cavalry from 80 to 90 metal :

    I agree it is a good start, some people would say it is not enough.

     

    Make catapult/stonethrower more useful :

    They will become very usefull, 11 shots to destroy a celtic civic center is not much. 3 catapults detroy a CC in ~30 sec.
    Need to be tested in real games.

     

    The Han Chinese :

    Firstly were they really called "Han Chinese" ?
    It feels unusual, it is like "Iber Spanish", "Ptolemies Egyptian", "Britons Britons",...

     

    Balance : 

    Food Collect :

    • Rise paddy:
      • 0.6*1.25*1.25*1.25 = 1.17 food/sec (with all upgrade)
      • 60 wood / 3 Gatherer  = 20 wood / gatherer
    • Fields (Gauls)
      • 0.5*1.20*1.20*1.10*1.20 = 0.9504 food/sec (with all upgrade)
      • 100 wood / 5 Gatherer  = 20 wood / gatherer

    The food collect is higher than the gauls even if they have an extra upgrade.
    The smaller cost make the field transition easier.

     

    Imperial Ministry and Imperial Minister :

    I have absolutly no idea how good they are, but i like the idea to add new gameplay.

     

    LaoziGate :

    It seems way too strong. +25% health and 1hp/s, range 75m and it is cheap. (and no hit box for pathfinding)

     

    Wei Qing :

    • Damage are insane :
      • Full upgrade it has : 152.4 (+5.7) / 2.4 = 63.5 dmg/s
        • It is not a crossbow but a bolt shooter.
    • Bonuses :
      • +20% damage for champs
        • Like other heros
      • -10% damage for enemy cavalry
        • Why not similar to some other heroes
      • -10 hp/s to enemy units arround him
        • It is way too much, there is no upgrade to reduce this damage
        • it can erase 30 pikes in 10 sec without fighting
        • This kind of bonus is nice but here it is a bit too much. It could be great to have this on all chariot and ele units like -1/-2 hp/s.

    Great Towers :

    Why only one ?

     

    No "Will to fight":

    Why not, replaced with 3 very nice upgrade, i like the idea. But for the same bonus than the blacksmith it is 3 time the price.

    To be tested in a real game.

     

     

    For every other things, I have no opinions, I guess balancing issues will be found when playing.

    Thank you for the work done !

     

    • Like 3
    • Thanks 2

  12. Unused Building Balancing Ideas

    in Gameplay Discussion

    Posted

    Hello,

    There is many building almost never used because they are not enough useful, it is a bit sad because the art work behind is great.
    I wish we could find a way to balance them a bit more in order to see them more.
    Most of them are unique building, they can participate on the civilizations differentiations.

    Unused building balancing ideas:

    Theatron :
    Current one :

    • Bonuses: 
      • Structures +20% territory influence raduis
    • Cost: 200 Wood + 600 Stone + 200 Metal

    On going patch : D3602 / D3563

    New bonuses/mechanic ideas :
    1 - Ressources trickle
        -> 1 metal / sec
        Justification : Cultural wealth.

    2 - Faster training time
        -> reduce the prodution time of organic unit.
        Justification : Contribute to the well being of the population / meeting place.

    Balancing proposals :
    Proposal 1 :

    • Bonuses:
      • Ressources trickle : 1 metal/sec
      • Faster training time : -10% training time
      • Territory increased : +50%
    • Cost : 600 Stone

    Proposal 2 : ...

     


    Edict Pilar of Ashoka:

    Current one :

    • Bonuses:
      • Traders +20% speed. Range : 75 meters
    • Cost: 100 Stone + 100 Metal
    • Condition: Ashoka the Great is alive

    On going patch : /

    New bonuses/mechanic ideas :
    1 - No condition required :
        -> Don't need to train Ashoka the Great
        Justification : Unify with other civilizations

    2 - Building placement :
        -> Neutral territory
        -> Ally territory
        Justification : Trade routes is very often with allies.

    3 - Team speed bonus :
        -> The trader speed bonus works also for allies.
        Justification : Trade routes is very often with allies.


    Balancing proposals :
    Proposal 1 :

    • Bonuses:
      • Own and ally traders +20% speed. Range : 75 meters
      • Buildable on own, neutral and ally territory.
      • No condition required
    • Cost : 100 Stone

    Proposal 2 :

    • Bonuses:
      • Own and ally traders +20% speed. Range : 75 meters
      • Buildable on own, neutral and ally territory.
      • Condition: Ashoka the Great is alive
    • Cost : 75 Stone

    Proposal 3 : ...

     


    Cothon (Naval Shipyard):

    Current one :

    • Bonuses: 
      • Garrisoned ships +10 health regeneration rate
    • Cost: 300 Wood + 200 Stone 

    On going patch : /

    New bonuses/mechanic ideas :
    1 - Faster training time
        -> Ships are built faster (training time reduce by 80%)
        Justification : This building is a ship factory.
        
    Balancing proposals :
    Proposal 1 :

    • Bonuses:
      • Garrisoned ships +40 health regeneration rate. (still slower than 5 units repairing)
      • Ships are built 80% faster
    • Cost : 300 Stone

    Proposal 2 : ...

     


    Lighthouse:

    Current one :

    • Bonuses: 
      • Very Large vision range
    • Cost: 200 Stone + 200 Metal

    On going patch : /

    New bonuses/mechanic ideas :
    1 - Faster ships movement speed
        -> Ships moves +20% faster inside the vision range, allies included
        Justification : Lighthouses mark dangerous coastlines, hazardous shoals, reefs, rocks, and safe entries to harbors
        
    Balancing proposals :
    Proposal 1 :

    • Bonuses:
      • Ships movement speed +20%
      • Very Large vision range (current one)
    • Cost : 250 Stone

    Proposal 2 : ...

     

     

    Wonders:

    Current one :

    • Bonuses: 
      • Glorious Expansion : +20% maximum population limit (requires the "Glorious Expansion" technology)
      • Ressources Trickle : 1 Food/s + 1 Wood/s + 1 Stone/s + 1 Metal/s
    • Cost: 1000 Wood + 1500 Stone + 1000 Metal

    On going patch : /

    New bonuses/mechanic ideas :

    1 - Reduce all unit cost
        -> All unit are +20% cheaper to train
        Justification : /

    2 - Reduce all building cost
        -> All building are +20% cheaper to build
        Justification : /


    Balancing proposals :
    Proposal 1 : ...
        

     

    • Like 2

  13. Suggestions for 0 A.D.

    in Gameplay Discussion

    Posted

    1 minute ago, LetswaveaBook said:

    Hmm, champion units are already at your militairy service and instead of getting paid, they pay taxes. Citizen soldiers spent all day chopping wood and give all wood they chop to their overlord and in addition to that they are expected to pay taxes. I knew there should have been some cruel tyrants though...

    Haha yes, it's just ideas :)

    • Like 2

  14. Suggestions for 0 A.D.

    in Gameplay Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Edwarf

    Ideas proposals to make it more "realistic" :

    Taxes : Every unit gives a metal trickle.

    Food consumption : Every unit cost food (negative food trickle) -> once you reach 0 food your unit start to die. (inspired by "Cossacks"/"American Conquest")

    Every unit are train as simple citizen, In order to get soldier you have to send your unit to your barracks to get equipement and military training. In other word training a soldier cost a citizen. (inspired by "Cossacks"/"American Conquest")

     

    • Like 2
    • Confused 3

    Special Unit : Scouts

    in Balancing Discussions

    Posted

    Big gameplay change are involved in this topic, and some suggestion are impacted by A25 gameplay patches

    • CC not able to train military unit :

    I'm not sure it is a good idea, this will make you really dependent of the map. If you are lucky and you got extra food(hunt/berries) you will be able to spend your wood into a barracks and then you can be aggresive. In the other hand if you are unlucky and you don't have any extra food you will have to invest your wood into field, your barracks will be delayed by 2 min, which makes you extremly weak. Can be even worse with D2854.

    And as @chrstgtr explain it will slow down rushes reactivity.

    • Baracks training higher rank unit:

    I don't really like this idea, it will make the game slower. Barracks units are mainly used to boom during the first 10 min of the game and higher rank unit have lower gathering rates. Also higher rank unit is planned for mercenaries to differenciate them (D3699).

    • Citizen Cavalry not able to hunt anymore :

    I don't like this idea, in my opinion it is a great innovation from this game giving dynamism to it. Being able to rush then gather some food on your way back and stealing opponent hunts are interresting gameplay. Hunting cavalry is part of this game identity.

    Compared to citizen soldier they can't do much, they are not able to build or gather other ressources than meat.

    There is already a cavalry not able to hunt the champions.

    Well, i like multidisciplinary units being able to have a job during peacetime.

    • Using citizen infantry to hunt:

    Infantry can already hunt, they hunt as fast as woman collect berries without the upgrade. In some rare situation it can be worth to use your infantry to hunt.

    • New unit the "Scout":

    I like the idea to have a wider range of unit possibilities. having a unit dedicated to hunt and explore can be interresting. If you see this as a kind of mounted "woman", i like it, but if it is a unit meant to replace current phase 1 cavalry, I am not very enthusiastic.

    Being able to build outpost is an interresting idea, I like it, but current A24 outpost need to be reworked otherwise it is not usefull.

    • Limitation of unit trainable:

    I don't like this idea of limiting the quantity of unit trainable. Let some freedom to the players.

    Limiting to 5 scouts: is it really worth it to make more if they can only hunt, explore and die ?

    Limiting to 15 citizen soldier in the CC: i don't really see the point. In early game it is not much used to train citizen soldier being the only building where you can train women. and in the late game you don't need women anymore. As it is currently, the CC is useful all along the game.

     

    6 hours ago, Stan` said:

    @Edwarf is there anyway where it wouldn't be too much like AOE?

    In AoE the scout can only explore and harass the oponent. Here if the scout can collect ressources, build outpost and being bad at fighting, it  doesn't seems to be too much like AoE. Especially if the current cavalry is kept as it is currently.

     

    I think more opinions are needed about this unit, it is a big change.

    • Like 2

  16. Fortress circle

    in Gameplay Discussion

    Posted

    If I am right,

    The circle you see in game is the former building range from A23. It doesn't seems to be updated.

    And it was also just a small indication on A23 because elevation and range upgrade were not taken into account.

    In A24 you can consider the building range as the field of view of the building except for the fort the range is similar to its territory range.

     

    • Like 1

  18. Let's Fight - Gameplay Balance Mod

    in Gameplay Discussion

    Posted

    Hello,

    Here is my personal feedback about your change.

     

    V0.2.1:

    Automatically set mercenaries to rank 2 and halve training time [Thanks @Nescio]
    -> Why not


    Mercenary upgrade to rank 3 technology for Carthaginians [Thanks @borg-] 
    -> Why not but doesn't work on your mod.


    Fixed health bonus to military units with each phase up [Thanks @Valihrant]
    -> I don't like it a percentage is mutch better. Instead of doing 2* +10hp, do 2* +10%hp (which means less HP for ranged infantry, same for melee infantry and more HP for melee cavalry)

     

    V0.2.0:


    Increase cavalry move speed [Thanks @Valihrant]
    -> Why not


    Increase turn rates for infantry and cavalry [Thanks @Valihrant]
    -> Why not, but the dancing is back.


    Added a minimum distance between forts and civic centres [Thanks @faction02]
    -> Why not but i'm not a big fan.


    All Changes
    Units:


    Cavalry and Infantry javelineers accuracy increased (spread set to a23 value since they became much less effective in fights compared to other ranged units)
    -> Why not


    Infantry javelineer walk speed increased (to allow skirmishers to chase slingers and archers and prevent formation laming)
    -> Why not


    Infantry slinger walk speed increased (to chase archers, but still be slower than javelineers and prevent formation laming)
    -> Why not


    Cavalry and Infantry archers attack rate reduced and damage increased (to unify with other ranged units as higher attack rates provide a demonstrable advantage in practice)
    -> I prefer to have unit not unified, but ok why not


    Melee cavalry health increased (to make melee cavalry more effective in fighting and rushing as they currently are underutilized and tend to lose to massed range)
    -> I don't like it at all melee cavalry is already very strong in A24, this will make cavalry unstoppable just like persia in A23. Rank up HP is enough, more over in your mod Phase 3 rank 3 cavalry have more HP than champion cavalry.


    Reduced training time of cavalry, infantry, and women (to allow players to make the choice of either rushing or a larger boom)
    -> Why not


    Increase cavalry move speed (to enable raiding as it is currently disadvantageous to attempt in all stages of the game compared to booming)
    -> I don't like it cavalry is strong enough for raiding in A24, this will make them too strong. More over currently on your mod cavalry have the same speed as champions cavalry.


    Increase turn rates for infantry and cavalry (allow better engagements for aggressors while still keeping in the intent of preventing dancing)
    -> Why not, but the dancing is back.


    Automatically set mercenaries to rank 2 and halve training time (since mercenaries have prohibitive cost compared to the value they provide as they do not have enhanced stats without this upgrade or the ability to gather resources)
    -> Why not, make sense


    Fixed health bonus to military units with each phase up (tradeoff of having more pop or phasing up for a hp bonus during a fight or push to allow for more variety of timing strategies)
    -> I don't like it a percentage is mutch better. Instead of doing 2* +10hp, do 2* +10%hp (which means less HP for ranged infantry, same for melee infantry and more HP for melee cavalry)


    Siege:


    Allow rams to hit fields and units (to allow for fast clearing of space and to prevent laming by body blocking)
    -> I don't like it, it feel useless to me, it make your rams behave stupidly.


    Reduce wood cost of catapults (to compensate for the inability to effectively fight units as area-of-effect damage was removed)
    -> I like it


    Buildings:


    Increase the resource cost and build time of palisades, stone walls, and Roman siege walls (to prevent abuse of walling)
    -> I don't like it a wall of farmstead is similar to a palisade ? It would be better to make longer palisade keeping its stats (like picture). Stone walls and Roman siege walls are fine. At least they are a little bit used now.

    LongerPalisade.png.7db3473e42016d462a6c36a8b4dc1c07.png
    Reduced arrow damage of civic center, sentry tower, defense tower, and fort (to prevent defensive structure abuse)
    -> I don't like it, why would you use garrison mechanics if your units becomes useless inside ? Defensive build are not that strong in A24 if you know how to deal with them.


    Reduced health of sentry tower, defense tower, and fort (to prevent defensive structure abuse)
    -> I don't like it, 4 houses have more HP than a fort ? Sentry tower are already extremly weak and can be destroy by archers. 


    Theater buffed to have more territory weight and influence (since it did not provide a significant advantage for its cost)
    -> Why not


    Roman army camp can produce siege engines and cost 100 more wood and 300 more metal (to allow for greater variety of strategies at a greater cost)
    -> I realy don't like being able to build siege in Castra, you can loose a game because of 1 sneaky man, that's not an interresting strategy.


    Increase outpost vision when not garrisoned, but give greater vision when garrisoned (to make outposts useful while still rewarding garrisoned units)
    -> I like it


    Allow Macedonians to produce arsenals at the town phase (to allow greater strategic variety and compensate for the loss of the uniqueness of the siege workshop from A23)
    -> Why not but useless Phase 2 exept to go phase 3


    Added a minimum distance between forts and civic centres (to force the choice of increasing territory via a civic centre or securing territory via a fort instead of allowing both at low risk)
    -> Why not but i'm not a big fan.


    Technology:

    Reduced city phase requirement from 4 to 3 (to encourage boom/earlier aggression and de-incentivize tower abuse)
    -> Why not


    Defensive towers do not count in city phase requirement (to discourage turtling and de-incentivize tower abuse)
    -> Why not


    Sentry towers do not count in town phase requirement (to discourage turtling and de-incentivize tower abuse)
    -> Why not even if it's not really usefull.


    Reduced metal cost of all farmstead and storehouse technologies by half and increased wood cost to compensate (since metal is scarce on popular maps and is required for many strategies)
    -> I like it 


    Reduced metal cost of all forge upgrades by half and increased wood cost to compensate (since metal is scarce on popular maps and is required for many strategies)
    -> I like it 


    Remove food cost for non-champion mercenaries (since mercenaries' high metal cost coupled with their inability to gather resources necessitates an advantage to compensate; also, since the intent was to have them be more realistic by costing gold or metal, then food should not be one of their costs)
    -> Why not


    Add cartography to market while keeping the option in civic centres (to still allow players the choice of taking cartography in the village phase, but also have the choice to take it in the town phase without sacrificing unit production)
    -> Why not


    Bring back carrier pigeons and stone foundations for outposts (to give the choice between achieving greater utility at the cost of a garrisoned unit or at the cost of time and resources through technologies)
    -> I like it


    Arsenals produced by the Macedonians count towards city phase requirement (to allow greater strategic variety and compensate for the loss of the uniqueness of the siege workshop from A23)
    -> ok


    Mercenary upgrade to rank 3 technology for Carthaginians (to give a differentiating trait to Carthage and an incentive to try a mercenary army strategy as Carthage has the greatest mercenary diversity)
    -> Why not but doesn't work on your mod.

    • Thanks 1

    Civ Differentiation -- Celts -- Loot Bonus?

    in Balancing Discussions

    Posted

    19 hours ago, borg- said:

    Are there any indication of rams by the Celts? If not, I would find it interesting to remove and add a two men and a trunk unit in phase 2. It would be interesting to differentiate and make these civilizations stronger in the first and second phase, and weak in the third.

    I think it's a good idea to give them  tiny ram phase 2 (two men and a trunk)

    But i'm not sure about removing their current ram phase 3. a weaker ram phase 3 (as discussed here : D3319) is enough.

     

    If they are too weak in phase 3 it make this civilization gameplay predictible:

    They will have to do their push phase 2 otherwize it's game over, opponent can plan defense for min 8 to 12.

    • Like 3

  21. Structure range

    in Gameplay Discussion

    Posted

    Hello,

    On 28/01/2021 at 12:25 PM, Nescio said:

    green: attack range of 60 calculated from the obstruction edge (not implemented)

    Will it be implemented in A25 ?

    On 28/01/2021 at 12:25 PM, Nescio said:

    blue: attack range of 60 calculated from the circle around the obstruction (A24)

    Is it the case for all building or only for "arrow shooting" building ? I wonder if it's working for temple, pyramids...

     

  22. Regicide Remark

    in Gameplay Discussion

    Posted

    Hello,

    Quick remarks about regicides :

    • Due to the A24 elephant heroes change they are now able to destroy CC during phase 1 on a regicide game. I attach a replay from Dakara to illustrate this point.

    DakaraRegicideReplay.zip

    • Extra heroes in regicide games : I figured out that some civs can have access to "new" heroes not trainable in normal game.
      • Macedonians 4th and 5th heroes :
        • Macedonians4th5thHeroes.png.e1b690dff5ae22ac79c6dd0df640eb98.png
      • Kushites 4th hero :
        • Kushites4thHeroes.png.69a0bb226dc22686cdca06a281ea8dbd.png
    • Some heroes can start with a horse or without. Example :
      • MountedDismountedHeroes.png.2bbadd459fed483467e87cb6ac3acf53.png

    About balance :

    • Starting with random Heroes providing huge or useless bonus can severely impact the balance of a game (for example compare Indibil and the Kushite hero above)
    • Also starting with a cavalry or infantry or elephant impact the hero safety :
      • Elephant heroes can't be garisoned
      • Infantry and Elephant heroes are easy to snipe.
    • Cavalry heroes can kill all the economy of the opponent at the start of the game.

     

    -> In order to balance regicide games: is it possible to provide a similar hero to each civilizations ? For example a cavalry hero with better resistance and less attack than standard cavalry heroes and with no bonuses. And this specific hero don't stop the possibility to train a standard hero during phase 3. This would be even greater if this can be set as a game option, Standard Regicide / Balanced Regicide (Yes random games are still fun)

     

    • Like 5
    • Thanks 3

  23. A24 Feedback

    in Gameplay Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Edwarf

    @Dizaka, 

    Thank you for your comments, i commented again :) (in blue inside the quote)

    16 hours ago, Dizaka said:

    Gauls:

    A23: Top 3 civilizations, strong economic bonuses (population space on every building/building faster to build/rotary mill), strong heros and fanatic strong for raids.  Paired with Iberians is really powerful. True like all P1 skirm civilizations

    A24: Decent civilization, economic bonuses (building faster to build/extra food upgrade).Very strong power spike at phase 2 due to extra damage on sword cavalry en cheaper fanatic. New champions, Heroes easier to reach.  (Cheaper stable and barracks.)  A strong civilization overall.  Diversity of units in p2.  Can do a good p3 push.  The ability to produce rams, hero, and dmg reduction units at the same time is extremely valuable. I don't really understand why they can do good p3 push they have nothing more than other civs on this phase. in A23 i'd agreed but in A24 i don't see why, tell me more, i feel like i'm missing something.

    Strength:

    • Building faster to build
    • Extra food upgrade phase 2, helps for the sword cavalry spam.
    • Strong Heroes that do not require a fort True but now only 6 over 13 civilizations needs a fort to train Heroes it is not a specific gauls strength.
    • Strong melee cavalry (+15% damage)
    • Strong team bonus and dmg reduction battle units. True but expensive.

    Weakness:

    • Only rams has siege weapon
    • Weaker buildings

    -> Gauls weaker in A24 than in A23 but still decent. Harder to play, not a beginner civilization anymore.

     

    Macedonians:

    A23: One of the worst civilizations no swords, no spears, useless heroes, no economic bonuses. One of the few civilization that can do massive damage if played by the right player.  Only civilization that could attack with 15-16 rams within 16/17 mins generally making it difficult to defend versus, especially versus Gauls, Seleucids, or any other skrimisher civ (e.g., rome, macedonianss, iberians, etc) that massed skirmishers with no anti siege.  This civ paired with Iberians is extremely powerful as advancement to p3 is significantly faster. Romans had everithing better and i'm not convinced by this strategy but yes i see your point.

    A24: A bit better thanks to champion swordsmanChanges to pikemen do not necessitate a need for swordsmen. I am a bit confused pikemen changed ? i still see 2 hack + 3 pierce / 2 seconds which is actually worst than women against rams. New champion crossbowman (a bit weak can’t be spammed due to massive overkill).  Uniqueness of this civilization completely lost in a24 as every civ now has the same siege ability.  Possibility?  Make siege workshop a p2 building that counts for p3 like ele stables for Maury. true good point.

    Strength:

    • Phase 1 spear cavalry
    • Variety of siege weapons
    • Hellenistic Metropolis (Civic center +100% Health points)
    • Stronger buildings
    • Foot companions, like Ptolemic pikemen, kill rams.  No need for sword or wasting metal on the newly available units anymore because of how game was revamped it's not a problem anymore. Pikemens were and are still good meat shield but i don't see the change in order to counter rams.

    Weakness:

    • No economic bonuses
    • No spear infantry (except champions) Because of update there is a strong preference for pikemen in lieu of spear infantry.

    -> Macedonians Slightly stronger weaker in A24 than in A23.  Not a viable civ currently and do not see other players play it in mutliplayer.  Seleucids have about everything mace has plus more. true but remain as a bad civilization

     

    Mauryas :

    A23 : Decent civilization (Very strong in nomad games) that can be played strong by a players such as 90/letsplay0ad who knows how to use cav to hunt food - can mass 20-30 cav by minute 9 and dominate most civs (but only with right player, otherwise extremely weak). I agree. Heroes a bit weak RELATIVE to other civilization heroes I agree., economic bonuses (Elephant worker), +10% population limit, only elephant as siege weapon (except expensive champions maceman and tricky rams)

    A24 : Very strong civilization. Heroes still can be perceived as weak to most players.  However, economic discount + speed and temple discount + speed heroes are extremely powerful in a games dependent on metal.  Will to fight now only costs 1200 instead of the 1500 resources as for other civs.  R2 upgrades in temple can cost 250 food instead of 1000 with the right setup, thanks to heroes, and temples can cost only 75 stone.  Extremely powerful two heroes (priest/chariot) with other heroes and bonuses (elephant/trade hero) that, generally, are useless.  Economic Construction bonuses (Elephant worker) It is a free moving ressources deposit it's good for economy (especialy at start), +10% population limit, Strong unique champion maceman (Note: rarely used in multiplayer now.  In the past good players could really turn games with these) I'm pretty sure they are still great now they are cheaper and easier to make we just need to be used to this new alpha to be confortable with them., Strong Archer chapions, Strong elephant archer, Indian siege elephant, access to rams.(cheaper barracks/stable)

    Strength:

    • Elephant Workers bonus of +25% construction speed is ridiculously powerful (Not utilized by many players).
    • +10% population limit is amazing due to Elephant siege population cost.
    • Elephant faster to recruit
    • Indian Siege Elephant
    • Extra Sword upgrade
    • Archery tradition
    • Unique Champion Maceman
    • Strong archer champions (poison damage)
    • Strong archer elephants
    • Cheap Walls
    • 20% discount and 50% speed on all upgrades at wonder (population), fort (will to fight), and weaponsmith (damage/defense upgrades) as these buildings can be garrisoned by the priest hero. I agree this hero is OK
    • Up to 75% discount on temple upgrades if using hero and an ally is a Maury (e.g., r2 upgrade at temple can cost 250 food instead of 1000 food.  That's huge.). I agree its fun to have cheap temple/upgrade but most of the time you already have temple on phase 2 and upgrade are not mandatory most of the time. and that's it, once this is done it doesn't provide much. Also when you have a mauryan ally it provide only 25% discount on temple/upgrade.
    • Only civ other than Romans that has access to WOODEN cost walls.  However, with strength of palisades this is a moot point. That's what i meant by "cheap wall" :) 

    Weakness:

    • Most players over-depend on archers.  No pikemen but has spearmen.  However, in a24 lack of pikemen is a serious disadvantage.  Pikemen make Kush/Ptolemies/Carthage really powerful. Carthage doesn't have pikemen you probably mean Seleucids/Macedonians ?  None

    -> Mauryas are stronger in A24 than in A23

     

    Ptolemies:

    A23: Top 3 civilization, economic bonus (free buildings), good team bonus, Strong heroes, strong army compositions, large variety of siege weapons. Very strong navy: Lighthouse, Juggernaut. Camel Archer Phase 1.  Paired with Iberians and extremely powerful civilization. I agree

    A24: Very strong civilization, economic bonus (cheaper buildings), good team bonus Strong Heroes, strong army compositions, large variety of siege weapons. Camel  Archer Phase 1. Standard Extremely strong navy. Civ has the siege ships.  This is extremely powerful and few civs have these ships. I need to play more naval battle but siege ships are now really bad against units and only un-experimented player place important building near shore line. In ship vs ship battle, 3 loaded medium warship (=3900 ressources) are better than a loaded siege ship (9 catapults) (=6900 ressources). Also ptolemies medium warship have less health point than celtic and mauryans medium warships.

    Strength:

    • Cheaper buildings (-40% cost for house, corral, storehouse and farmstead)
    • Strong heroes (and in Civic Center)
    • Variety of siege weapons
    • Stronger Bolt Shooter (faster less overkill)
    • Library
    • Hellenistic Metropolis
    • Military Colony
    • Camel archer at phase 1
    • Pikemen in a24 are a critical composition component of any army.  These pikemen units can be buffed by a hero.  These pikemen units can be also buffed by another hero if loss of pikeman hero.(cleopatra speed bonus won't do much dealing nothing or dealing faster nothing is still nothing) but yes Pikemen are great meat shield.

    Weakness:

    • Swordsman only as mercenaries
    • All ranged infantry are based on minerals (stone/metal).
    • Spear unit only as mercenaries

    -> Ptolemies are slightly weaker in A24 than in A23. A bit better balanced but still very strong.

     

    Romans:

    A23: Strong civilization, good heroes, good team bonus, strong siege, very strong military camps, spear cavalry phase 1. No palisade and no economic bonuses.  Uses 'average units' like skrimishers/spear and when paired with Iberians can be really powerful. True like all P1 skirm civilizations

    A24: Decent Weak civilization as it is a "siege civ" strongly dependent on aoe of siege. I actually agree. good heroes, good team bonus, strong siege, weaker military camps, spear cavalry phase 1. Now they have palisade Phase 1 and regular stone walls later on, in addition to wooden walls. True but they already had stone walls like all civilizations. No economic bonuses.

    Strength:

    • Castra (Army camp)
    • Strong heroes
    • Strong siege
    • Good team bonus
    • Spear cavalry phase 1

    Weakness:

    • Castra no longer permit construction of siege (ranged or melee).  A weakness of Romans, currently, is that castra is a weak structure that can be taken down with infantry.  Currently, having an enemy castra near a cc is not even seen as a problem and the building is ignored.  In the past, civs had to build outposts to secure their territory to make sure no castra was built and paid attention as it could turn games.  Castra is still the deadlier defensive building 25 pierce damage. it is cheaper than it used to be. i was not a big fan of sneak siege push in previous alpha, 1hp man could by himself build in the shade of a tree a military camp and a bunch of rams. it was a pain in the ass. If it could train cavalry/skirms i agree it can be nice.
    • No economic bonus

    -> Romans are weaker in A24 than in A23. (It would have been great to have other kind of unit in castra than only melee)

     

    Seleucids:

    A23: Decent civilization, medium heroes, variety of siege units, good army compositions. No economic bonuses.

    A24: Decent Strong civilization.  Elephant dmg bonus hero is pretty powerful, however this hero is useless in late game.  In general, the remaining heroes are medium heroes. Actually the sword cavalry hero "Antiochos IV" is better instead of giving 20% damage it reduce building health point by 20% which is exactly the same but at least it work for all units not only elephants, he is also faster making him better to snipe siege.   Strong variety of siege units. Good army compositions. No economic bonuses.(no change overall)

    Strength:

    • Free champion infantry upgrade
    • Military Colony
    • Hellenistic Metropolis
    • Variety of siege units
    • Good army compositions
    • Archer cavalry is extremely powerful. Yes mostly due to the archer balance issue otherwize their archer cavalry is the same as persian and ptolemies.

    Weakness:

    • No economic bonus

    -> Seleucids remain a decent civilization in A24. Better balance overall now.

     

    Overall balance:

    Lack of Metal:

    • This this this this this 100x.

     

    Catapults:

    • Catapult are way weaker than they used to be in A23, they are useless against units (which is great horrible ) they are easily destroyed by archers (this is great, but too easily destroyable which is horrible), they deal very few damage.
      • Catapults should be dealing AOE damage to units.In my opinion bolt shooters are made to fight against units not catapults  However, the requirement is that they need to be mircoed by the player.  An alternative can exist where siege can be made to "select units over structures" if dmg vs players is smaller than in a23.  Catapults always selected buildings over units and are useless in presence of buildings when not microed.
    • However they are a bit too expensive : they are more expensive than rams and elephants. I suggest to reduce their resources price and also the population cost, 3 is too much currently 2 might be better.  This could be an alternative to siege dmg vs units.  That is, the left over population could be used to build units to counter siege.

     

    “Turtling”:

    • This is a huge problem.  After minute 18 if a game isn't decided it will be a 60+ minute game.  In a23 typical game was 40 minutes. True
    • Palisades/Walls are a huge problem that enable turtling.  Either add a special unit that kills walls/palisades only and is hard to kill or the ability for the game host to limit palisades.
      • On the other hand, Palisades are necessary to surround each tower.  Why are tower so easy to capture?  It is crazy easy to capture towers now for some reason.  It is usually easier to capture than to take down a tower.
    • The consequence of many change made turtling (staying on your base waiting your opponent to suicide on your defence) too strong.
    • Building are way more deadlier than they used to be.
    • Popular Post
    • Popular Post

    A24 Feedback

    in Gameplay Discussion

    Posted

    Hello !

     

    I have seen plenty of feedback and complain about A24.

    So I will share with you my personal feedback, I hope it will be constructive and maybe help some people to understand the new Alpha.

    Some point can be redundant with other feedbacks; I just want to be exhaustive (As much as I can), I don’t want to insist on any point.

     

    Civilizations strength and weakness :

    Athenians:

    A23 : Used to be a strong civilization due to Strong slingers, very good hero Iphicrates (+3 overall resistances) and black cloak for siege sniping and raiding.

    A24 : Seems a bit weaker due to weaker slingers, hero permanent death and no more black cloaks.

    Strength:

    • Stronger building
    • +10% metal gather rate per phase
    • Iphicrates
    • Slingers for low wood map
    • Archer champions

    Weakness:

    • All ranged infantry are based on minerals (stone/metal).
    • Sword infantry trainable only in docks.

    -> Athenians weaker in A24 than in A23 (It’s OK, they were too strong)

     

    Britons :

    A23: Top 3 civilization, strong  economic bonuses (population space on every building/building faster to build/rotary mill), decent hero, strong early slingers rushes.

    A24: Better balance, small economic bonus with building faster to build, Dog phase 1 strong for rushes (can easily deny all food income of your enemy), decent hero.

    Strength:

    • Faster building
    • Dogs Rushes (Good micro mandatory)

    Weakness:

    • Weaker building
    • Only rams as siege weapon

    -> Britons weaker in A24 than in A23 but still decent, harder to play, not a beginner civilization anymore.

     

    Carthaginians:

    A23 : Decent civilization, strong cavalry, very strong hero, variety of siege weapon make them adaptable to situations.

    A24 : Strong civilization, very strong hero, Strong archer, variety of siege weapon make them adaptable to situations. Very good team play: Hannibal Barca + international trade bonuses.

    Strength:

    • Cheaper docks
    • Strong hero
    • International trade bonuses
    • Massive Stone Walls (good option now due to floating stone)
    • Apartment

    Weakness:

    • Swordsman only as mercenaries

    -> Carthaginians stronger in A24 than in A23. Well balanced now.

     

    Gauls:

    A23: Top 3 civilizations, strong economic bonuses (population space on every building/building faster to build/rotary mill), strong heros and fanatic strong for raids.

    A24: Decent civilization, economic bonuses (building faster to build/extra food upgrade).Very strong power spike at phase 2 due to extra damage on sword cavalry en cheaper fanatic. New champions, Heroes easier to reach.  (Cheaper stable and barracks.)

    Strength:

    • Building faster to build
    • Extra food upgrade phase 2, helps for the sword cavalry spam.
    • Strong Heroes
    • Strong melee cavalry (+15% damage)
    • Strong team bonus

    Weakness:

    • Only rams has siege weapon
    • Weaker buildings

    -> Gauls weaker in A24 than in A23 but still decent. Harder to play, not a beginner civilization anymore.

     

    Iberians:

    A23: decent civilization mostly played for its team bonus, decent hero. Very defensive civilization.

    A24: decent civilization weaker team bonus, decent hero, Strong cavalry champions.

    Strength:

    • Good hero
    • Very strong champion cavalry (fire damage)
    • Extra sword upgrade
    • Revered Monument
    • Massive towers
    • Starting walls
    • Very strong fire ship

    Weakness:

    • No economic bonuses
    • Only rams as siege weapon (Ok there is champion cavalry)
    • No counter to melee cavalry phase 1

    -> Iberians are stronger in A24 than in A23, They are more independent and don’t need to rely only on their allies.

     

    Kushites:

    A23: Worst civilization, even with decent heroes, economic bonuses (pyramids). Team bonus not useful due to weak elephants. Weak unique mercenaries, costly rank 3 healers.

    A24: Strong civilization, Decent heroes Economic bonuses (pyramid). Strong team bonus, Strong unique mercenaries, free rank 3 upgrade healer. Strong unique Axeman champions.

    Strength:

    • Small Pyramid (+15% gather speed)
    • Large Pyramid (+10% damge +1 resistance)
    • Rank 3 healers
    • Stronger rams
    • Mercenaries maceman
    • Champion Axeman
    • Decent Heroes
    • Archery tradition (+10 attack range for archers)

    Weakness:

    • None

    -> Kushites are way stronger in A24 than in A23, many gameplay possibilities.

     

    Macedonians:

    A23: One of the worst civilizations no swords, no spears, useless heroes, no economic bonuses.

    A24: A bit better thanks to champion swordsman, New champion crossbowman (a bit weak can’t be spammed due to massive overkill)

    Strength:

    • Phase 1 spear cavalry
    • Variety of siege weapons
    • Hellenistic Metropolis (Civic center +100% Health points)
    • Stronger buildings

    Weakness:

    • No economic bonuses
    • No spear infantry (except champions)

    -> Macedonians Slightly stronger in A24 than in A23 but remain as a bad civilization

     

    Mauryas :

    A23 : Decent civilization (Very strong in nomad games), Heroes a bit weak, economic bonuses (Elephant worker), +10% population limit, only elephant as siege weapon (except expensive champions maceman and tricky rams)

    A24 : Very strong civilization, Heroes still weak, economic bonuses (Elephant worker), +10% population limit, Strong unique champion maceman, Strong Archer chapions, Strong elephant archer, Indian siege elephant, access to rams.(cheaper barracks/stable)

    Strength:

    • Elephant Workers
    • +10% population limit
    • Elephant faster to recruit
    • Indian Siege Elephant
    • Extra Sword upgrade
    • Archery tradition
    • Unique Champion Maceman
    • Strong archer champions (poison damage)
    • Strong archer elephants
    • Cheap Walls

    Weakness:

    • None

    -> Mauryas are stronger in A24 than in A23

     

    Persians:

    A23: Good civilization, slow start and very strong late game. Extra population limit, over powered cavalry, no economic bonuses, Average heroes, strong rams. Apadana (resources trickle)

    A24: Strong civilization, balanced cavalry, extra population limit, double conscription, strong rams, Indian elephants. Apadana (resources trickle), average hero, huge trading bonus.

    Strength:

    • +10% population limit
    • Archery Tradition
    • Double conscription
    • Indian Elephants
    • Strong Rams
    • Apadana (Resources trickle 1food + 1wood +0.75stone +0.75metal/seconds)
    • +25% trade gain

    Weakness:

    • No early economic bonus

    -> Persians have a stronger start and weaker late game in A24 than in A23. Civilization way better balanced than in A23.

     

    Ptolemies:

    A23: Top 3 civilization, economic bonus (free buildings), good team bonus, Strong heroes, strong army compositions, large variety of siege weapons. Very strong navy: Lighthouse, Juggernaut. Camel Archer Phase 1.

    A24: Very strong civilization, economic bonus (cheaper buildings), good team bonus Strong Heroes, strong army compositions, large variety of siege weapons. Camel  Archer Phase 1. Standard navy.

    Strength:

    • Cheaper buildings (-40% cost for house, corral, storehouse and farmstead)
    • Strong heroes (and in Civic Center)
    • Variety of siege weapons
    • Stronger Bolt Shooter (faster less overkill)
    • Library
    • Hellenistic Metropolis
    • Military Colony
    • Camel archer at phase 1.

    Weakness:

    • Swordsman only as mercenaries
    • All ranged infantry are based on minerals (stone/metal).
    • Spear unit only as mercenaries

    -> Ptolemies are slightly weaker in A24 than in A23. A bit better balanced but still very strong.

     

    Romans:

    A23: Strong civilization, good heroes, good team bonus, strong siege, very strong military camps, spear cavalry phase 1. No palisade and no economic bonuses.

    A24: Decent civilization, good heroes, good team bonus, strong siege, weaker military camps, spear cavalry phase 1. Now they have palisade Phase 1. No economic bonuses.

    Strength:

    • Castra (Army camp)
    • Strong heroes
    • Strong siege
    • Good team bonus
    • Spear cavalry phase 1

    Weakness:

    • No economic bonus

    -> Romans are weaker in A24 than in A23. (It would have been great to have other kind of unit in castra than only melee)

     

    Seleucids:

    A23: Decent civilization, medium heroes, variety of siege units, good army compositions. No economic bonuses.

    A24: Decent civilization, medium heroes, variety of siege units, good army compositions. No economic bonuses.(no change overall)

    Strength:

    • Free champion infantry upgrade
    • Military Colony
    • Hellenistic Metropolis
    • Variety of siege units
    • Good army compositions

    Weakness:

    • No economic bonus

    -> Seleucids remain a decent civilization in A24. Better balance overall now.

     

    Spartans:

    A23: Good civilization, good heroes, strong women, skiritai and black cloaks phase 2 (huge power spike phase 2),the Agoge (+25% health to spear units). No economic bonus and population limit penalty (-10%)

    A24: Medium civilization, good heroes, strong women, no more population limit penalty. No more black cloaks and skiritai 25% more expensive. No economic bonus.

    Strength:

    • Good Heroes
    • Strong women (stronger than javelineer with loom)
    • Stronger buildings

    Weakness:

    • No economic bonus
    • Only rams has siege weapon

    -> Spartans weaker in A24 than in A23. The change on the skiritai is a bit too much in my opinion.

     

    Overall balance:

    Lack of Metal:

    • The current overall metal cost is fine for 1v1 when you have access to several metal mine.
    • Contrariwise for team games 90% of the time you only have access to your starting mine (so 5000 metal).
      • Economic upgrades:  1600 Metal
        • Wood = 600 Metal
        • Food = 600 Metal
        • Stone ~ 200 Metal (1 or 2 upgrade, more is useless cause not enough mines)
        • Metal ~ 200 Metal (1 or 2 upgrade, more is useless cause not enough mines)
      • Forge upgrades : 4000 Metal
        • Melee = 1000 Metal
        • Range = 1000 Metal
        • Hack = 1000 Metal
        • Pierce = 1000 Metal
      • Other upgrades : 5350 Metal
        • Cartography = 100 Metal
        • Cavalry = 350 Metal
        • Will to fight = 1500 Metal
        • Towers = 1000 Metal
        • Siege = 1100 Metal
        • Temple = 750(+600)Metal
        • Trade = 550 Metal
      • Buildings: 700 Metal
        • Civic Center / Military Colony = 500 / 200 Metal
        • Hero Building = 200 Metal
      • Units:
        • Hero = 400/350/300/200/150 Metal
        • Champions = 100/80 Metal
        • Mercenaries = 60/80 Metal
        • Siege = 150/180/250/220 Metal
        • Trader = 80 Metal

    -> Just for economic and basic forge upgrade you don’t have enough metal on your starting mines.

     

    New forge upgrades:

    • They are way better than it used to be. Having same upgrade for infantry and cavalry allow a faster adaptation to your opponent composition. For example, your enemy is going full archer then just go melee cavalry to clean is army.
    • A bit too expensive. Due to the lack of metal.

     

    Mercenaries:

    • Very expensive due to the lack of metal. (only 80 resources but all resources don’t have the same cost)
    • Similar strength as standard units but doesn’t gather resources.
    • Costly Rank 2 upgrade. (they should be rank 2 by default and upgrade for rank 3)
    • Faster to train

    -> Expensive unit for panic situations.

     

    Never used technologies and building:

    • Theatron: currently way too expensive a barrack on the border is the same and at least it produces units.
    • Outpost: useless in A24
    • Naval Shipyard: Units repairing ships are better and less expensive.
    • Edict Pillar of Ashoka: hard to reach, expensive, not very useful because buildable only on own territory.
    • Monumental Architecture: too expensive for a bonus/penalty upgrade.
    • Persian Architecture: way better than Monumental Architecture but still an bonus/penalty upgrade.
    • Spying technologies: 500 food + 500 metal + 600 metal  is way too much expensive. A standard cavalry do better it cost only 150 resources and it can fight.

     

    Ranged Infantry Balance:

    • Without any micro archers are stronger than javelineers and slingers
    • Bigger range makes units easier to micro
    • Weaker units (less Health Points) makes ranged unit even stronger.

    -> Archer units are too strong.

    Maybe give back the A23 statistics to the slingers and give 2 or 3 standard pierce resistance to the javelineers making them stronger against ranged units and still weak against melee.(like this all 3 ranged infantry are unique)

     

    Catapults:

    • Catapult are way weaker than they used to be in A23, they are useless against units (which is great) they are easily destroyed by archers, they deal very few damage.
    • However they are a bit too expensive : they are more expensive than rams and elephants. I suggest to reduce their resources price and also the population cost, 3 is too much currently 2 might be better.

     

    “Turtling”:

    • The consequence of many change made turtling (staying on your base waiting your opponent to suicide on your defence) too strong.
    • Building are way more deadlier than they used to be.

     

    Demography:

    • Hard to keep a high population:
      • Units have less Health points. (impact the overall balance)
      • Units are longer to train.

    -> HP bonus per phase was nice.

     

    Miscellaneous:

    • Slingers now use their ranged weapon to attack wolves!
    • Ambriorix now is worth it ! No more penalty it’s great !
    • Hero permanent death, it will be fixed on A25 apparently. (Am I right?)
    • Units turning :
      • It avoid dancing abuse, which is good, but maybe the better ranged accuracy was enough.
      • Slow down the game.
      • Retreat is now similar to suicide.
    • Trading ships :
      • They are clumsy, they can’t be spamed.
      • The trader garrison bonus is not enough.
        • A trader + a merchantman should carry the same amout of resources between two docks as a merchantman with a trader garrisoned.
    • Wonders: Doing the population limit bonus as a percentage is really great.
    • Celtic population bonus in every building was too strong but it was a great to have. Instead of removing it completely reducing it would have been nice.

     

    Bugs :

    • DDOS: Finishing a game is really rare. (balance issue is nothing compared to this)
    • Lags: currently the game lags way too much making it not very enjoyable to play. (I wonder if a smart person can make a “cubic” mod to replace all 3D design/texture/animation by cubic shaped volumes without animation with mono coloured texture. To reduce lags)
    • Graphical issues example: destroying animation of mauryan barracks is broken, half of the walls disappear.
    • Pathfinding issues :
    • Units are clumsy
    • Units disobey
    • Units have their own will
    • Units auto focus :
      • Units are automatically focusing palisade, field and walls. This is game breaker your entire army can be killed because they hate fields. Example :
        • Units don’t protect siege units when opponent ungarrison building because they are attacking field or palisade or walls.
        • Also for ship, a shore fight between 2 ships, can be unbalanced by the presence of palisade on the shore.

     -> Unit should attack (capture aswell) buildings only if they are tasked to.

     

    • Philip V doesn’t have full description on the learn to play panel.
    • Rank 2 units in castra are not specified in the description.
    • Rank 3 Healer in PR’IMN are not specified in the description.
    • Wrong hero description for Caratacos in French.

     

    Personal feeling about the future:

    I have seen some proposition on the forum about gameplay “innovation” and I feel like it tend to copy similar RTS games such as Age of Empire 2. For exemple the food decay, the scout phase 1, cavalry not able to hunt anymore, stable, siege workshop...

    I am a bit sad about that, this game is wonderful and unique. It can be improved with real gameplay innovation such as regenerative fishes, trees and berries. There is no need to copy other archaic games.

    In the other hand lately Age of Empire tend to do the same and copy 0AD innovations:

    • Soldier able to build
    • Dock used as resources deposit
    • Units can be garrisoned in houses

    -> I hope it is just a feeling.

     

    To conclude, in my opinion it is great that many issues has been discovered on this Alpha, it can’t be perfect the 1st time but it can always be improved. It is mostly the negative part pointed out but the work done is really great! Overall it is nice to play on this Alpha!

    Thank you everyone who contributed to this project!

    Post Scriptum : I have seen lots of complain about this Alpha but note that everybody has access to the next Alpha on SVN, you can test it and give your feedback before its release.

     

     

     

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