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Posts posted by wolflance

  1. The good thing about modding a dark-age European army is that everyone is using the basic spear, sword and longbow, with the occasional javelin and slings (and Dane axe). More specialized weapon, such as maces and polearms and crossbows, did not come into prevalence until later.

    Speaking of Vikings, I am under the impression that Vikings = Normans, but from different period. Why part 1 split them into two?



    I found this photo on pinterest.

    Merovingian House 6~700 AD, reconstruction. I hope Carolingian period architecture won't differ too much from this one.


    Another reconstructed house from the Merovingian period. From Musee de Temps Barbare. (I think there is an entire reconstructed Merovingian Frankish village over there).

  2. No Zhanmadao!? (Lol only just noticed now!)

    Perhaps we could have Zhanmadao wielders as a champion infantry for the Song reform to even the numbers with the Ming? Or as a 'normal' infantry that upgrades to some kind of Changdao swordsmen for the Ming upgrade? Whatever works best.

    Loving the new reference pics! Where did you find all these replicas? Especially the costume, ships and firearms.

    I categorized Zhanmadao as 'Glaive', similar to Guandao/Podao as it suppose to be. Heavy axemen and the reform 1 champion infantry will be using it.

    (The massive two-handed 'katana' version did not appear until sixteenth century, and it was never called zhanmadao until Qing Dynasty).

    Knowing the right keywords and Google-fu can get you very far :pleasantry:

  3. Oh, that :lol2:

    A quick Google nets me several 'Merovingian' churches and stone forts. I will try to post pictures when my connection is good.

    (This is still way better than the information we have on the architecture of...say, Han or Tang Dynasty).

  4. Part 1 time frame encompass Merovingian period as well, that period I know next to nothing about...some articles I read seems to suggest that not much changed in the army composition (except some minor equipment change) during these two periods.

    Main weaponry would be spear, sword, axe & Francisca, javelin, and longbow. Armour would be mail shirt, spangenhelm or conical helmet (some with nasal guard), and round or oval-shaped shield. There were sling and staff sling as well.

    The unit roster does not deviate very far from the vanilla 0ad roster.

    Being the...uh,'Western European' faction, I think the Franks can serve as a 'baseline' civilization, so that other cultures can have a point of reference/comparison.

  5. Sorry to barge in.

    IMO the Francisca could be a secondary ranged attack a.l.a. pilum, from a realism point of view. It gradually fell out of use during Carolingian times anyway. For other ranged, they could also have longbow and javelin?

  6. @Wolflance:

    Hey dude noticed you updated the unit roster again. So the nest of bees got removed coz it was cart mounted, that's cool. But IMO don't remove handheld rocket launchers alltogether. If you go to chapter 126 of Wubei Zhi you get an illustration of men with handheld rocket launchers called "Fire Dragon Arrows" (火龍箭). Ming Rocket Launcher infantry are so iconic and awesome we have to include it!

    Don't worry, it is just temporary. At the very least 九龍筒 was in use (in 1464AD).
  7. Sorry I wasn't around for quite some time. Bad connection, couldn't even download the latest release. Anyway, I will put some visual reference here:

    Song Dynasty Peasant Women (And a man, which can be used for Xiang Bing unit.)


    Reproduction Southern Song Dynasty Peasant Women's clothing


    Song Dynasty Sword - Type One (Backsword Type)


    Song-Ming Dynasty Sword - Type Two (Falchion Type)


    Replica Song Dynasty Bamboo gun


    Mobile Whirlwind Trebuchet


    Triple-bow Giant Crossbow


    Model replica of Nanhai One, a Southern Song period merchant ship.


    Model Replica of Huaguangjiao One, a Southern Song period merchant ship.


    Ming Dynasty Saber (not the best picture tough)


    Early Ming Dynasty Handgonne


    An arrow-shooting Shen Qiang (神槍) used by Champion unit Jingyiwei (left), and a Jiu Long Jian (九龍箭), nine-shot handheld rocket launcher (right).


    Early Ming (1377AD) Cast Iron Bombard - 210mm bore, 100 mm total length. Has two pair of trunnions.


    Model Replica of Zheng He's Treasure Ship (The black and white coloured hull with red trim was the standard colour scheme of Ming and Qing-era Chinese junk)


    Model Replica of a 400 liao early Ming War Junk


    • Like 1
  8. How do you feel having the Song/Reform 1 wonder be Su Song's Clock Tower instead? To me it feels more 'significant'. And its probably better if we don't have both wonders be pagodas!

    Aren't that tower a bit too small for a wonder? Or we just make a gigantic version? (I recall the full scale replica is only 12 m tall). Otherwise, good idea!

  9. The liao 料 seems to be a unit to measure capacity instead of weight, with little standardization between dynasties or even between different era of the same dynasty, and government liao unit is very different from civilian liao , which seems to different from one guild/organisation to another. From the article I read, a Song Dynasty 2000 liao civilian ship is only half the capacity of a 2000 liao government ship, etc.

    Modern calculation put 1 Ming Dynasty liao = 10 cubic meter, from the article I read, anyway.

    We don't have any good reference (except Nanhai One) for other Song warships anyway. Trebuchets, crossbows, flamethrowers and bombs are pretty much standard now so those will definitely show up on Song warships (regardless of method of propulsion). For the Ming, bombards and rockets replace trebuchets and crossbows.

    I'm afraid letting a civ that is good at turtling and economy to hold out (while amassing a big army) until Phase 3 and then suddenly reform into a mobile and hard-hitting army might be too overpowered, and it lessen the incentive to choose reform 1 because by Phase 3 you want to be attacking anyway.

    Making the civ branch out earlier also let your opponent to have time to adjust and counter your new tactics (if his scouting is good), which IMO is a good thing. However if late game specialization is the direction this mod is taking, then we can always adjust later.

  10. Excuse the double post!

    Updated the proposal yet again!


    As you have pointed out I was still playing around with historical accuracy a little too much. So based on you suggestion both archers now get melee. I also realized that I got some of the champion units mixed up and now I give up on heroes granting you special units because it was getting confusing. And finally: added an upgrade that turns all your citizen soldiers into 'semi-champion' units to reflect the collapse of the Fu Bing during mid Tang. On another note: what is this 'barrier troop' you speak of? Do you have a Chinese name for it? I can't find any info on that. And do you know what 神威軍 (Shen Wei Army) does and what weapon they use? I can't find sufficient info.

    Info on barrier troops http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrier_troops

    There are no specific unit name for the Tang barrier troops, only records like "队副一人撰兵后立,执陌刀,观兵士不入者便斩" , which describe the usage of MoDao for such function. Modern generic name for barrier troop is 督战队, however this is obviously not suitable for Tang Dynasty unit.

    I need to look into the imperial guard of the Tang Dynasty (since there are so many of them) for more information.

  11. Actually don't worry about the tonnage too much :smoke: - I just list it out to show that Song ships are supposedly slower than Ming ships - in-game models will not be made to scale anyway.

    For the most part we do not have any visual reference available for the Song ships, save for that painted scrolls (refer to the YouTube video I shared) , and the Nanhai One wreck. The drawings from Wujing Zongyao are riverine warships, and very likely outdated even by Song standard (and replaced with paddle wheel version).

    The reconstruction on Nanhai One are visually similar to Ming-period ships, so with some minor tweaking it could pass for a Ming ship, thus reduce the workload of the modders (I heard animating oars is quite a hassle too).

    I pull out the 400 liao Ming warship from the book 《南船记》 because it is the largest warship of this time period (1450+), excluding behemoths like treasure ship. Besides, there are Ming Dynasty drawings as well as accurate modern reconstruction of this particular warship, so modelers will have something to refer to.

    Regarding your concern:

    * I actually intend the reform tech to be mid-game upgrade. By late game the Chinese should be getting cannons and explosives. I will rethink about the scout ship though - maybe turn it into a fire ship or something.

    * It is also my intention to make the ironclad rammer a reform 1 unit, I just haven't figure out how to properly propose it. This is an almost semi-mythological weapon like the claw of Archimedes or the 'heat ray', after all.

  12. Yes. That makes sense.

    But what happens to the Superheavy War Junk once you get Reform 2? Will it shrink? If so wouldn't that be weird?

    Didn't the Ming have 50m War Junks that were supposedly part of the treasure fleet?

    And wouldn't 2000 liao translate to only 830 tons? That's about the size of an average 16th century galleon. Miles smaller then even the most 'toned down' size estimate for the Treasure Ship.

    Yes, because the Song (reform 1) is suppose to fit the 'slow and though' playstyle while the early Ming (reform 2) is 'fast and hard-hitting',like their land unit as well.

    I've seen wild claims about the 2000 liao treasure ship translate to 2000 ~ 20000 tons, so I have no idea...

  13. Song dynasty ships are way bigger than early Ming Dynasty ships!? :shocking:

    Yes, although larger does not always equal better, especially in naval warfare.

    A 400 liao Ming Dynasty ship should be roughly equivalent to 1000 liao Song Dynasty ship in size and tonnage, due to difference in measurement standard.

    The treasure ship is also recorded as 2000 liao, but that is exaggerated/improbable.

  14. Either way would be fine, because we really don't know what they look like. Given that armors and crossbows are state-provided but bows and arrows are not, I suggest Fubing melee infantry and crossbowmen start with armor, bu bowmen did not.

    However, as Tang Dynasty archers/crossbowmen are trained to engage in melee as well, even archers should be given more armor as they get promoted.


    Medium (armored) cavalry and infantry and archer...they...don't look very different, actually.

    As a side note, the MoDao (plus heavy quarterstaff, actually) upgrade should be applicable to both bowmen and crossbowmen. Bows were more prominent than crossbows during the Tang, so Chinese bowmen of this period should naturally be better than crossbowmen (or they fill different niches).

    Champion Unit:

    (i) I see your Champion unit proposal mentioned that Wu Zhetien is required to unlock certain unit - I sugest another Champion MoDao "barrier troop" unlocked by Li Siye.

    (ii) Weren't Beiwei and LongWu one and the same, LongWu being the renamed BeiWei unit during XuanZhong reign?

  15. Dude I'm sorry to be a bit of a pain again. But I strongly, and I have to stress STRONGLY, disagree with cutting the Nest of Bees unit and I urge you to put it back. It's such an awesome and unique unit with so much character and potential and so representative of early Ming gunpowder warfare it just HAS to be included. IMO its role don't overlap anymore than Cavalry Lancer vs Five Armies Battalion, or the Hand gunner vs Divine Engine Battalion, or a WWII Light Tank vs a Heavy Tank. One is weaker, cheaper, more mobile and is an infantry, the other a stronger, more expensive, slower and is a seige unit.

    IMO, it's not really that many units. Many are just upgrades/replacements of other units like in Age of Empires.

    Part of the reason I removed that unit is to balance out the total unit count for reform 1 and reform 2. Although Ming Dynasty is, by definition, more technological advanced than Song Dynasty, I want both reform to be equally powerful / useful, only play differently. Nevertheless, I adjusted the bonus and unit somewhat.

    25 unit is quite a lot actually, even Carthaginians from the original game did not have that many unit. (Well, Ptolemies has more than 25, but that's the exception).

  16. Uhh, Double post, might as well utilize this space.

    The 《奉天靖難記》 and 《明史記事本》 recorded the appearance of "Huo Che" during the Jingnan war in 1401, although no detail about this thing was given. However, it was listed / used together with firearms, crossbows, and pavises, so this Huo Che is very likely some kind of defensive rocket weapon.
    Earliest definitive record describing a rocket cart (that I could find) can be dated to 1449, which is still later than the Korean's 1409 record, but within the timeframe of Part II. It is a 4 boxes, 600 rockets (how the hell did they cram so many rocket in?), 20 guns version (only five guns are equipped at any time, others are backup), and required four operators. It should be larger than the version in the Wu Bei Chi drawing.
  17. Well on the rocket launcher wheelbarrow. They were used in the Jingnan War of 1401 which fits into our timeframe. According to Grandhistorian: Termed the Huo Che or "Fire Cart", these appeared in Ming dynasty descriptions of special Huo Che armed military units ca. A.D. 1401 and were used in the Jingnan war of A.D. 1401-1403 which saw Emperor Zhu Di replace Emperor Jianwen on the celestial throne. These early wheeled rocket launchers were simple collections of four Chang She Po Di Jian (Long Serpent Kill Enemy Arrows) launchers on the top, and two Bai Hu Qi Ben Jian (Hundred Tiger Together Run Arrows) launchers at the side, strung together to be fired all at once or fired individually, to allow for a more sustained fire directed at opposing enemy troops. Manned by four soldiers, two manning the rockets and two providing the motive power, the Huo Che was an incredible weapon capable of letting loose up to a fantastic total of 320 rockets from all six launch tubes." See that same link as above post but click on Huo Che "Fire Cart".

    In terms of gameplay I'd see it as being stronger than nest of bees, but more slow and expensive. So it's like a 'proper seige engine' and nest of bees being an infantry from the barracks. Have it replace the siege crossbow instead because don't you think it's a bit weird to replace a large siege engine that takes a whole team to operate with a single footsoldier? And maybe even have it so nest of bees can mount and shoot rockets from towers, walls and some ships and the rocket carts can't.

    As for the counterweight trebuchet, My bad 'cause I didn't make it clear that I never meant it as an upgrade to the traction one. The traction trebuchet would be more mobile, has quicker fire rate and is AOE anti-unit. The counterweight one would have to be deployed and is anti building. This should be consistant with their historical use. I'd have it exclusive to Reform 1.

    As for the rest: Good point I agree!

    Nice new update BTW! Goes perfectly with the mod's idea of 3rd phase specialization! Now that I think about it this addresses what to do with the Yuan: A 3rd phase specialization for the Mongols. They can choose either Yuan Dynasty or Golden Horde.

    The description of rocket wheelbarrow in Ming Shi about the war of Jingnan is too vague for me to make any sense of, but I agree with you about the nest of bees infantry being 'out of place' for a siege unit. Modified my post.

    Nevertheless, 40+ units is way too much for a faction. Probably need to trim it down a little bit in the future. The good news is, visual difference between Song and early Ming infantry can be sum up as "they wear different hat", at least for the Basic version.

    • Like 1
  18. *snip*

    1) Actually, I wanted to emulate the historical fact that all hundred thousands of Song troops are full-time professional soldiers on government payroll, and generally leave the dirty works to Xiang Bing, which are also under full-time military employment, but totally unreliable in combat.

    (I also want the Chinese faction to have a unique 'feel' to it, different from all other faction)

    2) 硬弩手 is just a generic term for 'heavy crossbowman'. For the most part I prefer generic name for ordinary units, because we don't usually see something like "windlass steel crossbowman" for other faction, just "crossbowman".

    Besides, the Song Chinese actually improved upon the 神臂弓 to create an even more devastating 克敵弓, quite a hassle to rename a unit every so often.

    3) Nobody expects the SpaniMing Dynasty Inquisition! This is a pretty cool idea. At the moment 0ad doesn't have any spy unit yet, vanilla or otherwise. But I am all for it anyway.

    4) I am not sure whether making three different models (traction trebuchet > counterweight trebuchet > bombard) for a siege weapon is worth the effort -- let's wait and see how other factions handle this transition (traction > counterweight trebuchet) and decide later.

    5 & 6) Earliest drawing of Chinese Rocket Wheelbarrow that I could find is from the Wu Bei Zhi, which is from late Ming Dynasty (i.e. outside of our time frame). Besides, it overlaps with the handheld version.

    7) Same reason as the Tang Dynasty thread - no evidence of its use as field weapon. I make it into an upgrade for the defense tower though. Fit nicely with the turtling strategy of this faction.

    8) Good point.

    9 & 10) Could be the same unit - But I need to check whether this 'bomb ship' fit into the time period (Do not trust Osprey books).

    11) Liaodi Pagoda is actually a leftover from when this thread is still just about Song Dynasty.

    • Like 1
  19. There should be "shuttle speed" that is same for all infantry as they carry resource back to drop base. Wheelbarrow can improve this speed.

    Was wondering why Wheelbarrow upgrade are in...aren't that thing invented in 100 a.d.? (That's Empire Besieged timeframe righ?)

  20. A quick search on the net resulted in some basic information of Tang architecture - Green roof, white wall, red column, and the design of door and windows.

    The rectangular arrangements above the door seems to have some importance - Usually called Qi Zhu Ba Bai (七朱八白), or seven red and eight white, the 'white' here being the white rectangular shape.




    One of the few surviving Tang period building, the Tian Tai An....a Buddhist temple.

    The Chi Lin Nunnery at Hong Kong is one of the best modern construction that adhere strictly to Tang Style.



    Candidate for Tang flag

    • Like 1
  21. ...

    1) Other suggested Hero:

    Li Jing

    Xu Ren Gui

    2) Another reason I don't want to many crossbow unit is that current animation set really does not look very good...

    3) Non-champion unit usually become available earlier, but I agree with you on this one.


    A Light Cavalry > Heavy Cavalry > (Champion) Cataphract progression would be nice though.

    5) Flamethrower were used in battle of Langshan Jiang, so it is appropriate for naval weapon in Part I at least. The fact that the Chinese used 'Iron Tube' to contain the fire oil and use silver to decorate said tube shows that it is not a weapon designed to be thrown from a trebuchet.

    6) O-wait, I found the quote!


    I really should read my source more carefully :pilot: . Dragon ship are in!

    The dragon ship are described as carrying loads of lime (Calcium hydroxide) dust, sand and bean, on top of its flamethrower.

    The lime dust was spread at range under favourable wind to blind enemy sailors.

    When the warship engage with boarding combat, sand is used on the ship to prevent slipping while beans was thrown onto enemy ship, causing enemy combatants to fall down. Flamethrower was used at this range as well.

    Seems to me like a (quite) large warship.

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