Jump to content


Community Members
  • Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won


Posts posted by wolflance

  1. @Ayakashi

    Ring-pommel dao was still widely used during the Song period, so I doubt that It was replaced during the Tang Dynasty. 'Supplemented' would be a much better word here.

    I do not oppose the inclusion of non-ring pommel swords though. Just that we must be wary of the 'Ninjato' Tang swords that flood the replica market. I will try to find more info about the Japanese preserved Sui-Tang swords, although as far as I am aware all but three are either

    (i) from Sui Dynasty (i.e. The 七星劍 'Seven star sword', 丙子椒林剑, and 水龍劍)

    (ii) Without mounting (七星剑 & 丙子椒林剑)

    (iii) had hilt and mountings from later period (i.e. The 水龍劍 or 'Water Dragon Sword')

    (iv) made locally but decorated with 'imitation Chinese' style.

  2. Hmm... well, I guess to get an idea of what they should look like you can just look at the surviving gate towers of Nanjing, Beijing, and Xi'an.

    I thought that Song champions except Beiwei would be trained from barracks, because what's the point of dedicating a whole building to one weak militia unit? Shouldn't they be trained from the civic center instead?

    Maybe what we can have is fortresses for the Song, and fortified gatehouses and palaces for the Ming. Song fortress train Beiwei units, and Ming palace trains Ming champions. Such buildings and units wouldn't normally be available until phase 3 and post reform anyway.

    By gate, you mean something like this?


    The 'weak militia' (Xiang bing) are supposedly to be available from the civic center.

  3. Ring-pommel was still widely prevalent throughout the Tang period, and commonly show up in Tang artwork, sculpture and lokapala. That 8th century sword you posted is actually Jian-like, making it more reminiscent of a Sassanian sword than a Chinese one.



    Besides, whether this sword is actually imported/gifted from China is disputed. It could be a "Japanese sword blade with Chinese decorative motif", or "China-imported blade with local (Japanese) made fitting & scabbard".



    Two Sassanian swords for your reference. Note the spear point blade tip (instead of the so-called "tanto point"), "two ear" style scabbard, and the small "curves" on the grip.

    Of course, Sassanian influence )especially scabbard) started to show up on Chinese daos as early as N&S Dynasties period, so it is normal that such influence eventually find its way to Japan.

    The "non-historical" part that I directed at modern sword manufacturer refers to the mix-and-match of several different (vaguely Chinese/oriental) style of different swords from (roughly) the same period,

  4. I should have notice that earlier :wallbash: but the straight, ringless sword...so called "Tang Dao", is considered by many to be ahistorical a.l.a. ninjato. It is pretty much 'invented' by the sword manufacturer to hop a ride on the katana craze bandwagon.





    Although ringless swords did start to appear during Tang period, those swords are more reminiscent of Sassanian swords than Japanese swords.

  5. I just thought of an idea. What if instead of building free standing fortresses, the Chinese faction can instead upgrade individual gates into huge fortified gatehouses for an expensive amount of stone and wood provided there is enough space, as they will be much wider than regular gates. Maybe have them have between 1/2 to 3/4 the hit points of normal castles, and like fortresses can maybe garrison 20 infantry, cannot be built too close to each other and also has a light cannon attack, and unlike regular gates, infantry garrisoned inside are fully protected and the upgrade is not instant.

    The reason I thought of this is because it might be too OP for China to have castles or fortresses separate from the civic center whereas all the European factions won't, and AFAIK China didn't have a tradition of building large standalone castles. However, China would still need a "castle-like" structure, so I guess you can call this a compromise. But IMO it can be another thing that makes the faction stand out.

    So, using the this diagram of Nanjing's Zhonghuamen from Early Ming as an example, we can have regular gates look like the smaller ones, whilst upgraded gatehouses will look like the big one.

    But then that leaves the question of where to train advanced units? Maybe some form of advanced barracks? Or a palace like in my Part 1 proposal?

    Image link is broken, so I can't see the "upgraded gate" you mentioned.

    If I am not mistaken, Song period was one of the period where stand-alone fortresses wouldn't be out of place, as they constructed a defensive network of fortresses and signal towers to deter Western Xia attack.

    Although Song Dynasty Forbidden Army was in theory a palace guard unit, in reality they were the only functioning military unit in the empire, i.e. They were 'ordinary' and did not hold any special prestige, thus not very suitable to train from a 'Palace' building. (We will have to consider after reform 2 the new Ming Dynasty troops were citizen-soldier too).

  6. Proposed Unit Roster (Draft)

    Non-Combat Unit

    Female Citizen

    Healer (Roman Catholic)


    Peasant Levy ('Citizen Soldier')

    Levy Spearman

    Levy Archer

    *Due to the civ feature 'serfdom', these unit are generally weaker than their counterparts from other factions, unless 'Muster for War' is in effect.

    Knight ('Champion Unit')

    Knight (Village Phase) (Spear cavalry)

    Knight (Town Phase) (Spear cavalry)

    Knight (City Phase) (Spear cavalry)

    *The bread and butter in any European army. Available fairly early (phase 1), and very strong for its cost. Nevertheless, being champion unit, the knight cannot participate in economic activities, and generally too expensive to mass produce.

    Knight's Retinue

    Retinue cavalry (Spear cavalry)

    Retinue spearman

    Retinue swordsman

    *These form the actual backbone of France's army, as they come free of charge along with the knights. Player cannot 'pick and choose' what kind of retinue to appear with the knight though, as it is randomized.

    Siege Unit

    Battering Ram

    Mangonel (Traction Trebuchet)

    Naval Unit



    *From what I know, medieval navy often were made out of repurposed merchant vessel, so maybe we can merge the merchant ship unit with warship.

    Hero Unit

    Godfrey of Bouillon

    Louis IX

    Joan of Arc

    *Maybe La Hire and Bertrand as well?

    Reform 1 Unit (WIP)

    Crusader Knight

    Serjeant Spearman

    Crusader Archer

    Genoese Crossbowman (Early)

    Counterweight Trebuchet


    *Possibly Turcopoles?

    Reform 2 Unit (WIP)

    Man-at-Arm (The distinction between a noble knight and a well-equipped warrior started to disappear)

    Dismounted Man-at-Arm




    Genoese Crossbowman



    Reform 3 Unit (WIP)


    Scots Guard


    Genoese Crossbowman






    Note: I envision knights (and other unit) from different phase and reform as from different period:

    Village Phase: 11~12th century (Nasal helmet, proto-great helm, hauberk, few surcoat)

    Town Phase: 13th century (Great helm, cap-a-pie hauberk, long but plain surcoat)

    City Phase: Early 14th century (Great helm, shorter but ornate surcoat)

    Reform 1: Crusader (with crusader and/or Templar and Hospitaller outfit, duh)

    Reform 2: Second half of the 14th century (Bascinet, Hounskull helmet, coat of plates, corrazina, goblose breastplate, very short surcoat or joupon)

    Reform 3: 15th Century (Sallet, Plate armour)

    Reform tech will replace Village, Town and City Phase knight with the appropriate version.

  7. Although France is a civilization that is confirmed to appear in Part II, and I am certainly not the most qualified person in European history, I think the 'standard' AoE-ish gameplay couldn't do justice to this very unique and fascinating culture.

    Although I put France in the title of this thread, this is actually just me randomly throwing out ideas on how a feudal society could be represented in a RTS game like 0ad. Some of these ideas might be unfeasible, overpowered/penalize the faction too much, or could be made into something better, so suggestions are welcomed.

    As I said before, I am not very good in French history, so I might (very possibly) get some historical facts wrong, please correct me if you find any errors.

    Brief History


    Wikipedia do it better.


    Most ‘European’ factions can be considered 'standard' or 'balanced' , although I believe France lean heavily towards melee cavalry (knight) and turtling.

    Civ Feature

    *Feudal Society: The 'Civic Center' of this civilization is a castle. It doubles as a fortress.

    *Serfdom: All 'Female citizen' and 'citizen soldier' unit of this faction (except healer and trader) cannot move out of player's territory (or receive a heavy penalty if they do leave).

    Civ Bonus

    *Retinue: Every knightly unit of this civilization will bring along several (random 0~3) retinue unit with them, free of charge.

    *Couched lance charge: Gives very high damage bonus on knightly unit during charging attack.

    Civ Disadvantage

    *Due to serfdom, this civilization cannot perform early rush/economic raiding effectively.

    *Weak infantry early on (peasant levy and all that), but can be mitigated with reform tech.

    *Diverse but generally lackluster navy.

    Special Building/Tech

    *Muster for war: A special tech that can be researched repeatedly. Lift the penalty on citizen soldier temporary (see serfdom).

    *Tournament Field: Allows for a special 'Hastilude' tech that can be researched repeatedly. Each successful research gives promotion to a random knightly unit.

    *Steel Prod: Increase damage of crossbowman unit. (Available to all three reform tech).

    Reform Tech 1: The Crusade

    The 'Expansionist' reform that gives (relatively cheap) crusader knights, better infantry, counterweight trebuchet, and better resource management (thanks to Knight Templar and Chambres des comptes).

    Reform Tech 2: Hundred Years War

    The 'Defensive' reform (It was really a series of raids and siege after all) that gives you Dismounted Knight, Genoese crossbowmen, Pot-de-fer (arrow-shooting cannon) and bombard, and bonus in castle and defensive structure.

    Reform Tech 3: Compagnie d'ordonnance

    The 'Technological' reform that gives the strongest melee cavalry in the mod (probably) - the full plate armoured Gendarmes, as well as Franc-archer militia, handheld firearms, and advanced cannon such as breech-loading Veuglaires, culverins and so on.

    • Like 1
  8. How would you propose late game specialization for this faction? AFAIK all factions in part 2 branches off into your choice of dynasty, kingdom, sub faction, or whatever you call it, in the late game?

    Oh, and Stegosaurus FTW :lol2:

    Maybe mount a siege crossbow on it too!

    TBH I have no idea too. the history of last couple centuries of this kingdoms is basically blank.

    I was thinking about Buddhism vs Hinduism, but unsure how this will affect the military aspect of the civ.

  9. These are all I have atm...I believe you already seen these pictures from the Osprey or Montvert books.

    liHy143m.jpg This one still shows elements of earlier dynasty shield (such as Han ~ N&S dynasties)



    Chinese infantry shield of this period are very long, slender shield, either pentagonal or hexagonal.

    I believe Korea has some surviving or replica hexagonal long shield. Similar hexagonal shields are also commonly used by various Polynesian tribes such as the Dayak (although decoration motif will be very different).


    Cavalry use round shield instead. There are four very visible studs on the shield, similar to later period Mongol, Islamic, Eastern Europe and Indian round shields.

  10. Hmmm, that's quite a lot of civ already, but I have the feeling that some really important ones are missing. For example:

    Part 1
    Gaelic Ireland / Irish Overkingdom(s)

    pre-Islamic Persian

    Part 2

    (Vs Crusade)

    Fatimid and Ayyubid





    (Vs Mongol and/or Byzantine)


    Bulgarian Empire

    (Personally I would like to see the Liao Dynasty and Malacca Sultanate as well)

  11. Visual Reference


    War boat


    War Elephant


    Shielded Cart / Mantlet


    Archers (left) and Crossbowmen (right)


    Wheeled Double-bow siege crossbow (left) and Elephant-mounted Double-bow siege crossbow


    Mounted Maiden Guard with Phkap. She is riding a mythological beast (or a decorated horse that resemble one)


    Syam (Siam) and Lawo (Lavo) Troops.


    These are said to be Chinese troops (although they surely don't look like it)

    • Like 2
  12. Proposed Unit Roster (Draft)
    Non-Combat Unit
    Woman-Trader - Quite uniquely, Khmer traders are all women.
    Khmer faction does not have “trader” unit. Instead their women double as trader.They carry (much) less goods than actual trader from other factions, but you can swarm the market with them.
    Healer (Hinduism or Buddhism)
    Fishing boat
    Citizen Soldier
    Crossobowman - Continental SE Asian crossbow seems to be pretty weak, without stirrup or other spanning devise.
    Phkapman - Welding a phkap, a sickle-like polearm unique to this region.
    Light Horseman
    Champion Unit
    Nayar (Swordsman-javelineer) - I keep hearing this so-called elite army, a spartan-like warrior caste of the Khmer Empire. But the source is solely lacking. So I will omit them for now.
    Maiden Guard (Spearwoman)
    Auxiliary/Mercenary Unit
    Siamese Auxiliary
    Lavo Auxiliary
    Chinese (Song Dynasty) Auxiliary
    Elephant Unit
    Worker Elephant
    Elephant Archer - As far as I am aware, Khmer was the only people to use the "double basket howdah" design for their elephants. This clever design makes their elephant archers much more effective compared to the "everyone sit on the elephant's back" approach, as all archers can shoot at the same target without getting in the way of each other.
    Siege Crossbow Elephant - Unique unit of the Khmer Empire. Combines the ranged firepower of a double-bow siege crossbow with the close combat capability, mobility and resilience of a war elephant.


    Siege Weapon
    Double-bow Siege Crossbow - The Khmer probably learned this weapon directly from the Chinese, or through their Champa rivals.
    Shielded Cart/Manlet




    Jayavarman VII (Chariot) - Most powerful warrior-monarch of the empire and the builder of Angkor Thom and Bayon Temple.
    Suryavarman II (Elephant) - Builder of Angkor Wat


    Angkor Wat - Maybe making entiry city a wonder is too much.
    Gold Temple of Bayon - It is a stone temple covered with literal gold. Only the stone part remains though.


    Easter Egg Unit
    Stegosaurus - No, seriously.
    • Like 4
  13. I guess it never hurts to give it a shot...

    Khmer Empire (Kambujadesa Empire) (802 AD - 1431AD)


    I always have the feeling that Southeast Asia is underrepresented in RTS (and video game in general), which is a shame, because this region has a very rich culture(s) , a unique blend of Indian, Chinese, Islamic (and later, Europeans) influence, and a political system unique to its own.

    I also think Part 2 of Millennium Mod could be a great place to include a faction/civilization or two from Southeast Asia, because at this time frame the region is relatively unified under the powerful Khmer Empire (and Srivijaya, but that's another story). The Khmer Empire at its greatest extent is as large as the Carolingian Empire at its highest point, so it is certainly not some unknown backwater kingdom.

    Swarm tactic, ambush, skirmishing, hit-and-run, late game elephant rush and lightweight siege weapon.

    The hot yet humid climate of the Southeast Asia region greatly limits the practicality of armours. A lightly clad Khmer warrior, no matter how skilled, is not expected to go toe-to-toe against...lets say a crusader knight clad in hauberk and surcoat. This does not mean the Khmer army was weak, though (and they do have some armour).

    Civ Trait:
    Tropical Civilization: Forest environments are inherently unsuitable for the development of large civilizations, as doing so require extensively modifying the environment. The fact that Khmers managed to carve up a large empire in this inhospitable region is a testament of their architectural and engineering capabilities.
    - The Khmers can cut down trees (harvesting wood) like no others.
    - Bonus to building hit point.

    -No corral: Heavily forested environments are also not very suitable for the development of livestock industry (and hot climate certainly is unsuitable for sheep!), Hinduism also forbid the consumption of cow. The Khmer did raise cattles and pigs, but usually not on very large scale.

    This civilization does not have 'corral' building. Instead, smaller livestock (chicken and the like) can be produced directly from the 'house' building. Harvesting chicken should be less cost-effective than sheep though.

    Agrarian Empire: Khmer Empire was practically build on rice. Most of its citizens were farmer.

    - Instead of female citizen, Khmer male have Gathering bonus in farming and fishing.

    Civ Bonus:
    *Quad-annual harvest: While rice is normally an annual plant, in tropical region rice can be perennal (harvested twice a year). In Khmer empire however, they harvest three to four times a year. Khmer farms churn out food three times as fast as normal farm (four times with upgrade).
    *Elephant Roundup: Able to capture 'Gaia' Elephant.

    Civ Disadvantage:
    * Little to no armoured unit.
    * Weak cavalry
    * Very, very poor navy.

    Unique Tech
    *Baray : Unique semi-wonder building. An artificial water reservoir that provides bonus to surrounding farms, as well as a healing aura. Only two can be built.

    • Like 5
  14. Visual Reference Thread

    Tang Army

    Secondary Source



    Several non-boob plate armour of the Tang army, from "Army of Tang China".

    Primary Source


    Ly9On4m.jpgA general with unique (probably ceremonial) dragon head helmet.


    A Tang-period Tibetan warrior.


    Oddly textual records describe the Tibetans as " both men and horse are encased in mail armour, so much so that only eyes are visible.". Tibetans fought primarily with swords, and they carry swords even on peace time. Even though they have armoured horse, they dismount to fight.

    For most of their history the Tibetan was a strong empire that could and did challenge Tang on equal footing, so I am hesitate to list them as 'Auxilary'.

    (More to come, when my connection is better)

  15. I will try to find info (preferably primary source picture) of the auxiliary troops. ATM I have both picture and textual description of the Tibetan troops, and some Nanzhao one...and Silla as well.


    Auxiliary could include Nanzhao and Arabs as well.

    EDIT 1: On MoDao

    As for the MoDao (陌刀), I found out that the 3+ meter, double-edged version actually refers to a weapon called PaiRen (拍刃) or PaiDao (拍刀). Although the Chinese character is quite similar, there is nothing to suggest that PaiRen is related to MoDao.

    On the other hand, both MoDao and YiDao (儀刀, ceremonial sword) were also called ChangDao (長刀).There are plenty of drawings of YiDaos in the Tang period art, all depicts two-handed, ring-pommel swords. MoDao *might* be the non-ceremonial version of the YiDao sword. This also reconcile with the fact that MoDao was sometimes compared to Han Dynasty ZhanmaJian —— it could even be the direct descendant of Han two-handed sword!

    EDIT 2: On Auxiliary Troops

    Was thinking instead of making unit for each ethnic auxiliary, we could instead opt for a more generalized 'Cultural group' approach. So instead of four different units for...say, Gokturk, Tiele, Uyghurs and Karluks, we have 'Turkic'.

    So...Turkic, Koreans, maybe Arabs and Tibetans...possibly Nanzhao and Persians? (Just about all of these kingdoms/empires had fought against and/or defeated Tang at some point too......)

    There's Khitan and Shiwei too, but I know practically nothing about these people...

  16. Ok noted! Will correct some of the names.

    For the cavalry currently it has 1 light melee, one auxiliary melee, 1 champion melee and 1 melee/ranged hybrid. For now I'll replace the camel with a cataphract style unit instead, it was a left over from the old proposal that I never removed and so far I see no reliable info regarding any Gokturks serving under the Tang fighting on camels.

    What other cultures & units would you suggest for auxiliaries?

    As for that archer: I drew him that way because I wanted to obscure as little of the outfit as possible whilst showing the entire design of the quiver. If that bothers you I can always flip it over. But I'm reluctant because something about the flipped look slightly bothers me, probably due to my utterly incompetent lack of skills in what barely passes as drawing. Perhaps this guy is just left handed? (Does that mean a death sentence back then lol? :D)

    A Gokturk cataphract? :shocking:

    AFAIK Uyghur were called to pacify the An Lu Shan rebellion, and Karluks were used (and betrayed the Tang) in Battle of Talas. Wang Xuan Ce (王玄策) 'requisitioned' a contingent of Tibetan troops to attack India.

    Your drawing skills is very good :notworthy: ! Not sure about the dead sentence though. I would like to see some armour without the 'boob plates' too! (Will post some picture afterwards)

    There's also MoDao I want to discuss~

  17. Thanks for the feedback! I'm going to make a few small changes again soon after I get the first batch of concept art ready.

    As for the lack of native/fubing/citizen cavalry: reason I propose only one right now is coz I think there should be a strong incentive to train auxiliary units, and coz the role overlap with said auxiliary unit I feel are too strong. Also according to Li Jing's Manual Qi Bing's were used to chase down routing enemies (I didn't read it myself but used the abridged translation/summary from this guy called Yun in this link: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/topic/774-tang-military-system/), which is partly why I used that name for a light cavalry unit. I did some guessing for many units because the sources were never very specific regarding equipment. If you find it inappropriate I'll change it.

    BTW, Concept art is coming very soon:

    attachicon.gifconcept art wip.jpg

    The Qi Bing were mentioned separately with Ma Jun (cavalry), so they were probably infantry. The 'Reserve' and 'Dragoon' translation in the CHF is inaccurate, as there are no basis to assume that Qibing fought as mounted infantry (they might, but there is no concrete evidence to prove either way)

    《通典》also mentioned that Qi Bing are organized ad hoc / on the fly, about three out of ten of an entire army will be organized as Qi Bing. Most appropriate modern equivalent for Qi Bing could be 'Task force'.

    For the cavalry and auxiliary, I got the feeling that Tang faction lacks a melee horse unit...did the Tang ever employ camel cavalry? The auxiliary system could be expanded to include more than just Gorturk and Koreans, to better represent the cosmopolitan nature of the Tang Dynasty.

    On concept art:

    Note the quiver should be on the right side - a right hander draw with his right hand, and hold the bow with his left.

  18. Just remembered I came across this webpage a while ago:


    It shows what's supposedly an excavated Song dynasty zhanmadao along with a stone mural depiction (or at least what the author believes is).

    That sword on Thomas Chen's website does fit several description of Song Zhanmadao - roughly 93cm blade length and ring pommel, etc.

    The '31cm crossguard (鐔长尺余)' description is ambiguous though. The chinese for crossguard/tsuba is '鐔', but a 30+cm crossguard is massive, and not very common on Chinese swords. If the 鐔 here means 'hilt' , then it make much more sense.

    Note: There are some Song-period scribes that equate Zhanmadao with Tang Dynasty MoDao. So maybe there are some similarities.

    Several Candidates for Song period Zhanmadao:

    Shorter blade, but longer handle.


    A version without (or missing) ring pommel. Possibly Liao Dynasty.


  19. Some (new) comments:

    Unit name:

    Some terms, like Zhanfengdui (戰鋒隊), refer to a ground/team of people, and thus not suitable as a name for a single soldier.

    The term Qi Bing (奇兵) means ambushers/flank attackers, not indicative of the unit equipment.

    Siege weapon Chuangzinu (床子弩) is a Song-period name.

    Fei Huo (飛火) is a catapult-launched weapon. Then again we don't have formal name for Tang period grenade.

    Unit Roster:

    Native / Fubing cavalry is lacking.

    (more to come when my connection is good)

  20. Yeah, maybe the weapon I described was closer to a Tang Dynasty Modao. Would you say the blade to pole ratio would be the same or the blade would be longer in the Song version? I've read up somewhere before that the Modao was more or less a precursor to this weapon.
    The only thing in common (between a MoDao and a Zhanmadao) is that they are both compared to the Han Dynasty ZhanmaJIAN.
    AFAIK MoDao is double-edged, total length is one zhang/300~360cm (but ratio of blade to handle unknown). Beyond that, we don't really know anything about this weapon. It could be a polearm or a two-handed sword, or somewhere in between.
    Song Dynasty Zhanmadao has a blade of three chi (~93cm)and a crossguard length of one chi (~31cm). It has a ring pommel. Handle length unknown.
    Speaking of MoDao, I should go and re-read your Tang Dynasty thread.
  21. Weren't song Zhanmadaos basically a very long straight single edged sword that's roughly 2/3 blade and 1/3 handle? Well nice to know you haven't forgotten them! What were they called during the Song? Maybe I should check that Wujing Zongyao in a bit.

    I think I know what you mean by the 'katana' version: those Ming miao daos which were supposedly reverse engineered from Japanese pirates? That wasn't what I had in mind! I own one of these. Most kung-fu weapons now days are post 19th century anyway! I've been doing kung-fu and wushu for like 15 years so at least I know that much :D

    Actually we don't have any drawings of Song-period Zhanmadao.

    It was called MaZha Dao (麻札刀) during Song time. A weapon with the name of MaZha Zhanmadao (麻札斩马刀) was recorded in Ming-period 明会典, alongside normal zhanmadao, So I can assume with certain confidence, that Song Zhanmadao follows the Ming definition.

    The Song version have a ring pommel instead of a butt spike.

    A Ming period Zhanmadao, from Wu Bei Yao Lue (武备要略)

  • Create New...