wolflance
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Posts posted by wolflance
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That Siege Tower called "Lin Chong Lu Gong Che "（临冲吕公车） is from later period (namely Song ~ early Ming). Similar weapon called lín chē （临车） did exist before Han Dynasty, yet the Han army did not seems to use them.The link you gave me about the Shoushe Nu （手射弩）seems to indicates that this is a Tang Dynasty (and later) weapon. Probably too advanced for Han period.(Eastern) Han Army did use heavy siege crossbow (which use spear as ammunition) to defend their city. No specific name was given though.
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Thank you a other alternativas to siege warfare specially to destroy fortifications
??They have Battering Ram
.If the modders decided to include Three Kingdoms period warfare, then stone thrower is fair game.
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Just my 2 cents:
While the technology certainly existed, Han army never used stone-thrower as siege weapon until Three Kingdoms period, AFAIK.
However two other siege weapons can be found on Han period arsenal records: The lián nǔ chē （连弩车）and wǔ gāng qiáng nǔ chē （武刚强弩车, shortened to wǔ gāng chē 武刚车）.
The lián nǔ chē is (believed to be) an up-scaled version of the repeating crossbow.
The wǔ gāng qiáng nǔ chē is a horse-drawn wagon armed with heavy crossbow. Usually formed into a Laager (Wagon fort).
Battering ram or chōng chē（冲车）are recorded as well.
Oh, and that gigantic siege tower lǚ gōng chē （吕公车）seems to be a much later design (Song dynasty and later).
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Han Dynasty term (that I could dig up):
Civic Center - guān sì （官寺）, this is the Han Dynasty term for something like "government office". It is the combination of administration office, court of law, jail, armoury, storehouse, and sometimes governor's residence.
House - I suggested mín zhái （民宅）before, but now I think wū（屋）is actually better.
Barrack - jūn yíng（军营）is recorded in "Book of the Later Han", but that book is from 4th Century. Still this is the best I could find.
Alternatively, yíng （营）is fine too. There is another term xiào （校）, but less common.
Stable - jiù （厩）, but I noticed there isn't a stable.Blacksmith is a tricky one. Han Dynasty term "铁官" seems to denote both the agency dealing with ironworking and the official appointed to that agency. No terminology for the facility/building itself that I could find. My best guess for an archaic-y term would be tiě zuò fāng （铁作坊）.
Corral - chù juàn （畜圈）is the more appropriate term, because shòu（兽）has the meaning of "wild animal".
The word juàn （圈）alone has the meaning of "corral". Could be used if no specific types of animal is picked.
Market/Trade Post - shì （市）
Dock - The term bù （埠）is correct, although I am not entirely sure whether Han Dynasty already developed such facility or not.
Temple - miào （庙）alone is fine.
Farmstead - cāng（仓）. Note that the term 'cāng' explicitly means "food storehouse (i.e. granary)".
Storehouse - kù （库）. This term originally means "armoury" but latter expanded to means "non-food storehouse".
Palisade - mù chéng （木城）which refers to entire stockade. For the wooden wall itself, it should be zhà （栅）.
*Note that stone walls/stone fortifications are uncommon in China until Ming Dynasty. They used rammed earth instead.
Wall - chéng qiáng 城墙 or chéng yuán 城垣
Wall Tower - chéng lóu （城楼）
Outpost - fēng suì （烽燧）is a building that guards the border. If enemies approach, it will send smoke signal during daytime (fēng 烽) and fire signal during nightime (suì 燧), also called tíng suì （亭燧）. Think Lord of the Rings fire beacons.
This is one of the ruins of the Han-period fēng suì.
Alternatively, wàng lóu （望楼）meaning "watchtower".
Wall Gate is correct.
Farm is correct.
Fortress - Found the term. It is called yào sài （要塞）
Not entirely sure:
Government center - During Han (and every subsequent) Dynasty, THE nation-wide administration office/Imperial court would be the Palace - gōng diàn （宫殿）.
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Hmm, apparently my reply went missing (did I forgot to press the post button?)
Anyway, here it is again:
I had a bright idea to check the chinese transifex translations:
Civic Center: Shìzhèng dàtīng (市政大廳). Literally (=> google translate) it means City Hall or Town Hall.
Storehouse: Cāngkù (倉庫) Warehouse
Fortress: Chéngbǎo (城堡) Castle
What do you think of these translations?
In our more recent docs we actually left out buildings like the Medical Center or the Siege Workshop. The Government Center is still present though. It is a building that either has unique technologies that are researchable or (if there are not enough unique technologies) bonuses things like farming or territory. I don't know if Military Commander's Camp is an appropriate translation for that?
Those translations make sense to me as far as modern Mandarin is concerned (I am a native speaker).
My suggestions OTOH are based on archaic terminology actually used during Han dynasty, or failing that, oldest appropriate terminology I could dig up. Admittedly my Google-fu is not up to the task, so I can't guarantee everything I suggested is 100% foolproof.
The problem I have with Government Center/Civic Center translation is that they means basically the same thing.
Can you point me to a more recent version of the design document?
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Woah, that's a huge navy list! (In 0 A.D. a civ normally has 3, maybe 4, warships and you come with 9
)Anyway, thanks for the info!
You're welcome.
. I tried to list everything I could find, but of course it is up to the Modders to decide which one to put in. -
Tang Dynasty Siege Weapon:
Jiao Che Nu （绞车弩）: Winch-spanned siege crossbow
Lei Shi Che （擂石车）: Traction Trebuchet. Also called Pao Che 抛车.
Tang Dynasty Navy:
Trade ship was called shāng bó （商舶） .
Fishing ship is yú chuán （渔船）
(Large) Tower ship or Lou Chuan （楼船）
(Medium) Warship or Dou Jian （斗舰）
(Small) Armored War boat or Meng Chong （艨艟）
(Small) Small Warship or Zou Ge（走舸）
(Small) Scout Ship or You Ting （游艇）
(Small or medium) Sea Falcon or Hai Hu （海鹘）. Has leeboard, hence the name.
(Special) Pai Jian （拍舰）a melee warship using Pai Gan*（拍竿）(Special) Huo fang （火舫） flamethrower ship.(Special Shui Che （水车） paddle-wheel warship. Also called Che Lun Zhou（车轮舟）.My bad, these are warships from earlier period. Got it mixed up. Do note that similar or better technology were certainly used on Tang warship.*The Pai Gan is a heavy ship-to-ship weapon which is operated like you would operate a drawbridge, only with gigantic battering ram instead of bridge. Once released, the battering ram will smash into enemy ship in a downward swing motion, hopefully sinking it.
*Another weapon seemingly unique to the Tang Navy is the use of molten iron. Due to pig/cast iron (produced by blast furnace) having lower melting point than pure-or-wrought iron, it can be melted easily. Pour the molten iron into a container, then trebuchet to the enemy, profit.
This is a model of a Sui Dynasty Wu Ya Chuan （五牙船, literally "Five-fanged ship"）which is a five-storey Tower Ship. Those weird-looking big stick poking out from the front, side and back of the ship are the Pai Gan I mentioned.
The Wu Ya Chuan measured 54.6m length and 15m wide, with forty oars (twenty on each side, which is very few for a ship of this size.). It has a crew of 800.
Song Dynasty Tower Ship, with and without trebuchet. Tang Dynasty version should be identical.
(Top) Left: Meng Chong （艨艟） Right: Dou Jian （斗舰）
(Bottom) Left Zou Ge （走舸） Right: Hai Gu （海鹘）
Song Dynasty drawings, but Tang Dynasty version should be identical. (By the time of Song Dynasty, these warships were gradually phased out, being replaced by paddle-wheel warship and sail ship.)
Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Gunpowder Weapon:
Flying Fire or "Fei Huo" （飞火）: Used to bring (burn) down a fortress gate. Song Dynasty military author Xu Dong （许洞）deduced that this weapon "could be gunpowder-tipped ballista bolt or catapult-launched bomb".
Fire Lance
Grenade
Huo You（火油）: Greek fire.
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I would like to add something to this topic, namely period artworks:
Tang Dynasty medium cavalry (armored horsemen on unarmored horse) from the mural of DungHuang
Tang Dynasty spearmen and sword-and-shieldmen during training, also from DungHuang.
Tang Dynasty guard in armor, from the mural in the tomb of the Princess Changle.
Figurines of Tang Dynasty heavy cavalry.
Another one from Dunhuang, showing unarmored horsemen armed with spear and shield.
Unarmored guards, mural of the Tomb of Prince Li Xian.
Also do note that Glaive-type polearms like PoDao or GuanDao or Zanmadao, as well as siege weapons like Triple-bow arcuballista or Whirlwind catapult, and the double-piston flamethrower, are from later Song Dynasty.
Chu Ko Nu or repeating crossbow, although famous, were never used as standard military equipment.
Tang army mostly use spear (Qiang 槍) and cavalry lance (Shuo 槊) and Halberd (Ji 戟). Tang period Ji are sometimes translate into "half-trident", see the first picture posted by Lion.Kanzen for reference.
There's also a polearm called Mo Dao (陌刀), but no one is certain what it looks like.
AAAND also, paper armor. Aww yeah.
According to Xin Tang Shu （《新唐书.兵志》）, the provincial army （Fu Bing 府兵) were divided into FIVE units:
Bu Bing (步兵, infantry)
Yue Qi （越骑, horse archer）
Wu Qi （武骑, shock/melee cavalry）
Pai Zuan Shou （排䂎手, spear and shield men）
Bu She （步射, infantry archer）.
Records from Tang Tong Dian 《唐通典》however divided the provincial army into seven different roles:
Nu Shou （弩手, crossbowmen）
Gong Shou （弓手, bowmen）
Zhu Dui （驻队, weapon-bearers/non-combatants. They will hold the bow and crossbows so the archers can then participate in melee combat with heavy staffs and polearms）
Zhan Feng Dui（战锋队, melee infantry intended to hold the line. Probably armed with spears and other polearms)
Ma Jun （马军 cavalry）
Tiao Dang （跳荡, shock troops. No mention of equipment but generally believed to be armed with sword-and-shield).
Qi Bing （奇兵, special troops intended for ambush and/or flanking attack. Seems to be lightly equipped.)
*The Fu Bing were not randomly conscripted misfit, but semi-permanent army equipped by the central government. A soldier provides his own sword, bow and arrows, shield, and short spear, while heavier equipment such as armor, horse armor, long spear, cavalry lance and crossbow were state-provided. They still have to plant crops and build stuffs though. The Fu Bing system collapsed during the reign of Emperor Xuanzong, and was replaced with a contract-based recruitment system.
*Depending on the periods and civlilzations, Tang cavalry might (emphasize might) have an definite edge over some factions in the form of stirrups.
There were many different Forbidden Armies throughout the Tang Dynasty, so it is very hard to 'generalize'. I think a Champion cavalry unit could be the best bet. Preferably a champion horse archer unit as well.
Auxiliary
The Tang Empire employs a lot of foreigners, from various Turkic tribes, to Uyghurs, to Karluks, to Tibetan, to (some) Silla Korean. The provincial army was itself a mixed race army, and the Forbidden Army consists of mostly foreign people (at first, later the number was swelled with locals). A lot of high-ranking officers were foreigners as well.
Outside of the structure of regular army, the foreigners also formed into irregular, auxiliary unit, raised during war times.
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Some other name change suggestion for Han Building:
Civic Center: Guan Fu （官府)
Government Center : The "Zhi Hui Zhong Xin" is extremely out of place. I suggest something like "Zhu Shuai Ying" （主帅营, meaning Military Commander's Camp）
Medical Center: Yi Guan （医馆）while similar facility certainly exists during Han period, but no specific term for it AFAIK.
Storehouse: Could be Liang Cang （粮仓）, even single word Cang (仓) should do.
Fortress: Closest name I could find is “Tun Bing Cheng” （屯兵城）, which means 'Garrison City'.
Siege Workshop: Zuo Fang （作坊）meaning 'Workshop' or Gong Cheng Zuo Fang （攻城作坊）meaning 'Siege Workshop'.
Unit Name Suggestion：
Han Dynasty terminology for Trade Ship is gǔ chuán （贾船）
I suggested Xing Shang （行商）before, but now I think the original term Shāng Rén （商人）is better.
There are mentions of Lian Nu Che （连弩车）in Han Dynasty text, which should be some sort of cart-mounted repeating siege crossbow. No one actually know what it looks like though.
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Building:
Archaic term for Han period buildings are hard to come by, so this is a WIP:
House: Was classified into 'lǘ lǐ' (闾里) during Han Dynasty, which is 6-25 housing unit. The term for the building itself can be called 'Ming Zhai' (民宅).
Market : 'Shi' (市).
Corral: ‘Shou Quan’ (獸圈) is correct.
Palace: 'Gong Dian' (宮殿).
City Wall：'Yong' (墉) is correct but rarely used. "Cheng Qiang" (城牆) is a more common (modern) term. ”Cheng Yuan"（城垣）sounds more archaic.
Watch Tower： 'Wang Lou' (望樓)
Defense Tower：'Jian Lou' (箭樓 meaning arrow tower)
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Pectorale is the Roman term of the small breastplate used by early Roman and Iberian soldiers. The Greeks call it 'kardiophylax'.
Mitra is a separate groin plate that can be found on some Greek muscle cuirass.
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I've read the Team Design Document, the Scion really did a superb job in researching the history and culture of Han Dynasty. There's however some inaccuracy in the nomenclature of various Rise of the East unit. Some term are too 'modern' and did not exists back then.
Dao Fu Shou (刀斧手): Could be Jian Dun Bing （劍盾兵）meaning sword-and-shield infantry. The 'Fu (斧)' means axe, which were rarely used by the Han soldier.
Chang Mao Bing (長矛兵) is fine as it is, but Ji Halberd is more common in the records. So Chang Ji Bing（长戟兵). Common polearms of this period is Mao (矛, spear), Ji （戟, Halberd), Pi (铍), and Sha （铩）.
*Ge（戈） is no longer commonly used.
Nu Shou: 'Nu (弩)’ means crossbow, so this unit shouldn't be using composite bow. I still think the bowmen and crossbowmen should be separated into two distinct units, which will be Nu Shou (弩手, crossbowman) and Gong Shou (弓手, bowman) respectively. OR it could be called Gong Nu Shou (弓弩手), which denotes archer but could use either bow or crossbow.
*The Chinese were not great archer as they were from an agrarian culture. They employ lot and lots and LOTS of crossbow to make up for this, though.
Tu Qi (突騎) is fine as it is. Note that there's an elite cavalry unit in the Han army called You Zhou Tu Qi (幽州突騎, which mean 'Cavalry from Youzhou').
Nu Qi (弩騎) is okay. The Han Dynasty certainly make use of Crossbow cavalry, but not as common as horse archer 'Gong Qi' (弓騎). Kinda difficult to reload a crossbow on a galloping horse.
Shang Ren (商人): Is okay, but could be called 'Xing Shang' (行商) as well, meaning 'Roving Merchant'.
Nv (女): Could be 'Nv Ren' (女人) or 'Nv Zi' (女子), meaning woman. Could also be called 'Ming Nv' (民女), meaning female civilian.
Ru (儒): Should be 'Ru Sheng' (儒生) or 'Ru Shi' (儒士), meaning Confucian scholar.
*The Chinese are always a secular culture, and their Confucian scholar does not generally perform miracles or healing. The 'mythical healing' shtick were performed by Fang Shi '方士' which is shaman, alchemist, doctor and Feng Shui rolled into one. Of course, only their medicine sort of worked. The Fang Shi
gradually turned into the religious Taoist and the secular herbalist.
Shang Chuan (商船) and Yu Chuan (漁船) is fine.
Zhuang Chuan (撞船): No such thing existed, because it means 'Ship Accident'. The Chinese warship which use ramming attack is called ’Meng Chong‘ (艨艟).
Lou Chuan (樓船) is good.
Xiao Fang Chuan (消防船): Xiao Fang (消防) actually means 'Firefighting' , which is the complete opposite of what this warship is suppose to do. Correct term for a kamikaze fire ship is 'Huo Chuan' (火船).
*Fire ship was first used during The Battle of Red Clift, which *MIGHT* be too late for the intended time-frame.
**Other lesser conventional warship to consider are "Ge Chuan" （戈船）for Western Han or “Dou Jian” （鬥艦） for Eastern Han.
Tan She Qi (彈射器): This term is modern and thus incorrect. A stone catapult is simply called 'Pao' (砲) or 'Pao Che' （砲車）. A more specific term is 'Pi Li Che' (霹靂車, Thundering cart), which were developed during the Three Kingdoms period.
*While Stone thrower were used before, the Han Dynasty army does not seems to use it at all, at least not until the Three Kingdoms period.
Nu Pao (弩砲): Giant crossbow that shoots spear-sized bolt should be called 'Chuang Nu' (床弩). Mobile version mounted on cart is called 'Nu Che' (弩車).
*Note that the Chinese also employ battering ram, which is called 'Chong Che' (衝車), as well as War Wagon ‘Wu Gang Che' (武剛車), and light chariot 'Qing Che' (輕車).
**Also note that during the Han Dynasty, the main adversary of the Chinese were the nomadic Xiong Nu , which did not settle in one place nor build fortification. With enemies like this, there's no need for advanced siege engine. While siege engine existed before and during Han Dynasty, it did not see much use, and most textual records simply skim over the details such as construction, material, etc.
My best guess for Han siege engine are simple traction trebuchet for their stone-thrower and giant crossbow for their arcuballista/bolt shooter. The giant crossbow is mounted on a three-wheel cart. (As mentioned in the writings of Mo Tzu).
Hero character I would like to recommend are Huo Qu Bing (霍去病, cavalry-booster) and 'Li Ling' (李陵, archer-booster).
I would also like to recommend the aforementioned Eastern Han 'You Zhou Tu Qi' (幽州突騎) and 'Ji Zhou Qiang Nu'(冀州强弩, Strong Crossbow from Ji Zhou), which were crossbowmen, as champion unit.
There are also 'Jue Zhang Shi' (蹶张士), elite crossbowman which is heavily armored, and carries a sword and shield on top of his crossbow. The 'Jing Chu Yong Shi' (荆楚勇士, The Braves from Jing Chu), which were (probably) similarly armed as the Jue Zhang Shi,but also used Ji Halberd.
Of course, Yu Ling Gu Er （羽林孤兒）the Qi Men （期门） and Yong Gan Shi （勇敢士）, etc are good too.
More on Chinese buildings later.
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Thanks!
One of the best things about Han Dynasty is the abundance of pottery building models, which provided great resources to building modellers.
Palace
Eastern Han fortified manor house with watch tower
This is one of twelve pictures showing architectural models dated to the Chinese Eastern Han Dynasty (25–220 AD), made of earthenware with a green lead glaze, featured at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. The items include:
- Three watchtowers
- House with a courtyard
- Granary tower
- A large stove
- A mill
- A wellhead with a bucket
- Domesticated animal pens
- A square duck pond with rails
A Wu Bao (塢堡), civilian fortress for defense against banditry,
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Hello, this is my first post here, so if I broke any forum rules, please bare with me. If I make any mistake, kindly point out to me and I will try to fix it.
Some, uhh, suggestions on the Han army, I guess. Mostly historical stuff, which I think y'all already know. But I will voice it nontheless.
1) Han army, for the most part, still rely on leather armor for defense. The leather is lacquered, so it has a black appearance. Iron armor did exists, but generally reserved for high ranking officers.
2) Base on the evidence of the Han period terracotta, Han soldier can be divided into three class - light/unarmored infantry, medium infantry with only a sleeveless cuirass, and heavy infantry with sleeved armour and full helm. Greaves and other limb defense are uncommon. Same applies for cavalries.
3) The jian sword was commonly used by Chinese swordsmen during the early Han, but quickly superseded by the Huan Shou Dao (環首刀/环手刀) , a straight, single-edged dao with a ring-pommel. BTW, early Han still use some bronze weapon.
4) The ge (戈) dagger-axe were not really used by the Han Chinese anymore, being mostly replaced by the Ji (戟) halberd. Shorter, one handed version of the Ji also exists, used by the swordsman.
5) Chinese polearms include Ji halberd, mao (矛) spear, pi (铍) also spear, but with a longer blade for slashing attack, and sha (铩).
This is a Han period sha polearm.
5) While Chinese are famous for their Chu Ko Nu or repeating crossbow, it is a niche weapon at best. Good ol' single shot crossbow are more commonplace. Single shot crossbow are called Qiang Nu (強弩). Stronger infantry variant was called Jue Zhang Nu （蹶张弩), which must be drawn with the aid of your leg. Cavalry use smaller hand crossbow (Shou Nu/ 手弩) instead. The Han archers were predominantly crossbowmen. In one of the Han Dynasty armament records (《武库永始四年兵车器集簿》), there were 520000 crossbows in the arsenal, but only 70000 bows.
6) Han Chinese still employ chariot in limited numbers. More common was the Wu Gang Che (武鋼車/武钢车) war wagon. The Wu Gang Che formed into wagon fort to defend against enemy cavalry. The wagon were brimmed with spears on all sides, as well as firing ports for crossbowmen. Something like a mobile arrow tower.
7) Han Chinese invented papermaking as well as blast furnace. Steel weapon were quite common but not enough to equip entire army with (Obviously). Roman also used steel in their armors so this isn't really something unique.
8) Han Chinese did not use horse armor until the very end of the Dynasty (Three Kingdoms Period). So no Chinese cataphract, sadly.
9) There are no intact Eastern Han armor survived through the ages. Plenty survived from the Western Han period, however. From what little info I could recall, Eastern Han armor improved from the Western Han armor with armored collar, groin guard and thigh guard components.
10) Han period Chinese used two different type of shields. Aside from the normal sized shield, they also used a metal buckler called Gou Xiang (钩镶). The Gou Xiang is too small to block arrows, but quite useful in parrying melee attack.
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Article about siege war under Han dynasty
in Rise of the East
Posted · Edited by wolflance
The Lin Che in that article is "临车". Spring Autumn and Warring States period terminology.
The Long Che probably is “隆车”(uncertain). It was mentioned together with the battering ram (chong che) as "long chong （隆冲）" , in a book compiled by Liu An, grandson of Emperor Liu Bang and the inventor of Tofu. He was then promptly accused of staging a rebellion and then committed suicide out of fear of retaliation.
EDIT: The book in question is Huai Nan Zi.
The Chong Che is “冲车” , which as I said is a battering ram.