wolflance
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Posts posted by wolflance
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Han Dynasty equipment progression, Western Han to Eastern Han. While drawn in cute anime style, the equipment in these artworks are VERY accurate. Illustrations courtesy of 防弹乳牛.
Progressively heavier armaments, from early Western Han (left) to mid-late Western Han (right), with a slight dose of imagination (i.e. I don't think a long halberd can be used together with a shield, unless it is a strapped shield that appeared during Eastern Han). Note the bronze and iron Pi(鈹) type spears.
Various equipment. Items of note:
1) Polearms at the top of the picture (from left to right: Sha-type spear, normal spear, Ji halberd, and axe-type halberd)
2) Gourang metal buckler in the warrior's hand.
3) Eastern Han Dynasty shield at the mid-left section of the picture.
4) Straight saber with knuckle-bowl hilt at the lower left section of the picture (Yes. Han Dynasty troops did use that)
5) The way sword scabbard is tied to the belt.
(late) Eastern Han-Three Kingdoms warrior. Items of note:
1) upward-curving Ji halberd (bottom),
2) Very long, armor-piercing spearhead.
3) Sha (鎩) type "ranseur" polearm.
4) Axe.
5) collared armor with full sleeves + thigh armor.
6) Helmet constructed out of vertically arranged, riveted long narrow plates, instead of lamellar (i.e. laced) construction like Western Han period.
7) Shou Ji (手戟) or Short one-handed Ji halberd.
8) Archery bracer at the mid-right of the picture.
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On 7/26/2018 at 8:34 PM, stanislas69 said:
Which is an axe with a long shaft
On 7/26/2018 at 5:51 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:No its more like an halberd
Han Chinese had both, you know
. Attached pic is a Han period halberd - the normal Ji has a horizontal dagger-like blade, but this version has an axe blade.
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On 6/29/2018 at 11:56 PM, stanislas69 said:
Did they have axemen ?
Only a few, as far as I am aware.
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On 6/14/2018 at 9:26 AM, pissybits said:
I think you're right about the habit of putting the dynastic name on flags/battle standards. However the font on that flag definitely existed by the Han Dynasty. However, the script style on the flag is called Clerical Script, which DID exist during the Han and was in fact the main script style of the period.
Clerical Script certainly existed already, but I am almost certain that Han period Clerical font didn't look like that (the flags reek of computer-generated font).
Here's an example of a late Eastern Han clerical script. The character "Han (漢)" can be found at the top right.
BTW, I recently found a cute but surprisingly accurate depiction of Han soldiers, courtesy of an artist known as Ginkgo story.
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On 5/21/2018 at 7:00 AM, wackyserious said:
Opinion on this armor, can we use them for the Han faction?
Although the armor is described to be a Nanyue armor replica.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nanyue_Armour.JPG
Nanyue was not exactly a part of Han Empire at this point of time, but there are Han (and Qin, for that matter) terracottas dressed in similar type of sleeveless armor, so I say go for it.
(Notice that his armor covers more than the typical Han Dynasty "pectoral" armor)
Oh, there is also a similar sleeveless lamellar suit belonged to early Eastern Han period Xianbei, so I think Xiongnu minifaction can also use it.
\
Early Eastern Han Xianbei armor, replica. It's almost identical to Han armor.
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A reminder that Mongol (and presumably Xiongnu) cart looks like this, it does not resemble the 4-wheeled wagons used by the Hussites etc.
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11 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:
@Alexandermb Do you have a reference for this one
@wackyserious Can you fix the short sleeved version ? (Archers)
@wolflance Sorry I do not understand, what do you mean by knots ? If that's the texture that's wrong, maybe I messed up the effect
I'll try to fix the helmet and the tower.
Ah, maybe that's just the perspective of the previous screenshot? Certainly there's no knot here. If resource/time permits you can add texture for the grip too, but this is largely inconsequential.
Reference from a Han Dynasty mod for mount and blade. Please ignore the five ornate blades on the left.
EDIT: Ah, now I see why you thought the blades are too broad after I post that photo...
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On 5/12/2018 at 10:16 PM, stanislas69 said:
The dao sword are mostly fine, as far as I am able to tell. I noticed that there are three "knots" at the end of sword hilt though, Han sword normally only has one single ring.
(I pointed these out ages ago) The polearms on the siege tower are still the old-style bronze ge though, and the flag haven't been updated, I believe.
Refer here:
This helmet is meant to be worn on top of leather hat, I believe.
I don't think there were short-sleeved Han troops.
Not sure about the historicity of this helmet - It looks not quite right.
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Elephant existed in China during the Shan period, but probably went extinct soon after. They were not used in warfare after Shang Dynasty until...North & South Dynasties (445 AD), if I remember correctly. In fact their uses were rare enough that the incident would get recorded down as if something very extraordinary.
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6 hours ago, Sundiata said:
true... I was mostly commenting on those Han period reliefs of "carriage chariots" with axemen.
Unit diversity is greatly appreciated by most players (especially since we're all used to those immense Total War unit rosters). During the Han period chariots were steadily being replaced by mounted cavalry, and chariots became mostly used as command posts. But that does show that chariots were in fact still in use.
Truth is that 500 BC to 1 BC is the timeframe that chariots were being replaced by mounted cav in every civilization that used them. That goes for every civ in the game as well. Even British chariot use has been greatly exaggerated in pop culture...
But the 500 BC to 1AD timeframe without any chariots would be plain wrong.
I think each civ should have an as complete unit roster as possible, strictly within the confines of historicity of course. Even if it only adds fun to SP matches (because indeed, chariots are a little useless in pro-MP matches). The point is to allow people to compose a (historical) army the way they see fit... Otherwise it all gets reduced to a single stale and boring format. Always the same army setup in every match is just blah... More units, more possibilities.
I think too many historically accurate units have been culled/purged/ignored/sidelined because of questionable reasons. I would like to see a reversal of the trend (anno 2018, people expect options).
That makes a lot of sense.
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On 3/28/2018 at 8:26 PM, Sundiata said:
Indeed, chariots seem to have fallen out of combat use around the time of the Han, but that basically means they were still used by them, just not as universally as before. Heavy armored chariots were even used by the Han in the battle of Mobei against the Xiongnu, 119 BC. A Chinese chariot unit would be pretty cool! They were also used as command posts, making them a cool choice for a hero or even those government official dudes.
Some of these are like half-carriages:
Pre-Han, 400BC
Qin chariot
Axe chariot, Han
Axe chariot, Han
Han chariot
Han Chariot
Han "carriage"
Han carriage
It should be noted that Chinese language does not distinguish between different TYPES of chariot - the "heavily armed chariots" used in Mobei were in fact, wagon fort, not chariot in the traditional sense. I‘ve read the Xiongnu minifaction thread about giving them wagon fort, but it was in fact the Chinese that invented the tactic (i.e. first in the entire world to use it) and used it against the Xiongnu.
I do not oppose adding them back (my collector OCD urging me) , although I don't think chariot adds anything new to the faction.
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Elephant stable for the Han???
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On 5/3/2018 at 5:53 PM, Sundiata said:
That kind of design was used until the end of Qin Dynasty only. By Han period, bronze two-piece (spear + dagger-axe) halberd was largely replaced by slender, one-piece iron halberd head. It's in the lower right of your first image.
Han halberd was more slender, streamlined, vicious, but also kinda ugly. Still, it was what it was.
On 5/3/2018 at 6:39 PM, wackyserious said:@wolflance What material is the lamellar made of? Was it standard to paint it black?
Either iron or leather (actually hide is more correct). Both were lacquered black.
16 hours ago, Arcana33 said:The sign on the banner is 漢 (汉 in simplified). It is said "hàn" in modern chinese and signifies the Han Dynasty, so I believe the flag is accurate.
No. The character itself is problematic (I don't think that kind of font style existed back then - it's a modern font and clearly printed from a computer), and it's likely that they didn't actually put the character "Han" on their flags (none of the subsequent dynasties/modern China did, either).
(I think Roman wouldn't write “SPQR” on their flags either).
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3 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:
So the current ones in the game are incorrect, right ?
I haven't test-play for quite some time. Can you post a screenshot?
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On 5/2/2018 at 3:07 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:
http://www.absolutechinatours.com/china-travel/Han-Dynasty.html
Huo Tuo, Han Dynasty physician who used anesthesia to numb pains.
I will urge caution about using that flag. It is most likely inaccurate (just look at the halberd head!).
Hua Tuo was Three-Kingdoms period, so may or may not out of the timeframe.
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On 5/2/2018 at 2:07 PM, stanislas69 said:
Are they also thicker sometimes ?
As in "broader"? no, most of them are roughly that narrow.
I believe I mentioned that Han swords are narrow back when I first post in here (forgot which thread though).
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18 hours ago, stanislas69 said:
Well that means all our daos swords are wrong.
No no, not all Han daos are that long. They come in various sizes.
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Authentic Han two-handed dao, 116cm. It's rare to see someone actually holding the dao, gives a much better sense of scale.
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Due to real life I can't join forum discussion as often as I used to be, but I still occasionally come here to check for update. Yes I know about the combination into Terra Magna, in fact I started the Xiongnu thread.
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It's a nickpick, but the crossbow mechanism appears to be mounted backward.
A better reference of the Han crossbow (model) can be found here.
http://www.atarn.org/letters/letter_summaries.htm#han_xbw
You can also check out this guy's pose when shooting the crossbow - there's a rangefinding sight mounted on the Han crossbow, so he is attempt to adjust the range when shooting.
The classical "cranked" Chu Ko Nu was a Ming invention. The early Chinese repeating crossbow did not look or operate like that. The video below demonstrate the early-type repeating crossbow. It's also 20 shot as compared to the standard 10.
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Note that Xiongnu did not use round shield (the only depiction of Xiongnu with shield that I know has them armed with rectangular shield), although others non-Xiongnu nomads may had use it.
Just saying.
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23 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:
Well, if you want to be pedantic, then neither did many sedentary cultures. Greeks, besides Spartans, did not have standing armies, and most ranged units like archers and slingers were home-trained.
Barracks and Archery Ranges and whatnot in the game are abstract concepts for gameplay purposes.
I understand. In a sense barracks/archery range can be treated as a RTS abstracted representation of "men being removed from their day-to-day, economically productive lives, given armaments, and go to war". However, this abatraction really doesn't reflect the nomads' way of life&war very well (or at all).
That being said, as long as they can keep their core playstyle (outmaneuver, outnumber and outexperience their foes), I don't really mind a barrack or two.
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Born-on-the-saddle nomads really did not train troops like the sedentary cultures. They didn't go to an archery range to train archery skill, and didn't train in a barrack either. Instead, they honed their skill by hunting and herding. Every single male in their society (that's not an elderly or cripple) is a warrior. Unlike the concept of citizen-soldier, making war was not PART of their lives. For the nomads, war was almost indistinguishable from daily lives. It WAS their lives.
Or to put it in another word, NO barrack, NO archery range. NO stable (they don't need it, they just let the horses roam free). Train the troops directly from civic center & houses, and allows them to gain experience by hunting. Personally I envision nomads gameplay as extremely FAST. Not only their troops are fast (all mounted), they should be able to get a base running in the shortest time possible (< 4 buildings), amass an army quickly (civic center and all houses churn up troops), and gain experience through resource collecting (i.e. hunting or plundering).
On the other hand, nomads do build corral, though.
Single-edged blades (two on the left) should be complete straight. Double-edged Sword could be longer.
Spear...should follow the Chinese design, although last I checked Han Dynasty spear simply used generic spearhead.
Shouldn't put ring on the spears/polearms, just leave it bare.
Also, I don't think Xiongnu used any chopping polearm.
Reconstructed Han Dynasty clothing
in Rise of the East
Posted · Edited by wolflance
I think I've seen 3D model of this helmet somewhere in the forum, but it's not implemented in the mod apparently?
No idea what armor Xiongnu would use, "possible" is all what I can say, given the similarities of Xiongnu & Xianbei weapons to Han Chinese one. Eastern Han-Jin Dynasty riveted helmet appears to be influenced by Central Asian design too.
Xiongnu ought to be lighter and lesser armored than Han though.
As a side note, I am more concerned about the removal of non-historical items, rather than implementing more features. Is this non-historical helmet asset still used?