Ayakashi
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Posts posted by Ayakashi
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I don't really play this game's multiplayer so I can't comment on the micro, but I do hope to see little people pushing/operating the siege weapons added in the future.
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I assume we won't have to worry about how part 2 units will look for quite some time. Anyways I'm up for doing concept art for them when the time comes!
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I can see the changes in the map editor but in game they still look the same (old versions). Is anyone else getting this?
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Which is kinda sad IMO really. I really find some aspects of the gameplay and visuals very archaic like AOE2 seemingly due to engine limitations: like no 'line of sight rule', siege units having no crew, and soldiers that destroy farms by stabbing them with spears. I guess this is really down to lack of funding/resources then :/
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Sorry if this has been discussed before but are there any plans or considerations to implement a 'line of sight' system for ranged units like archers?
For example: make it so that archers and ballistae cannot shoot through tall buildings and walls unless standing on higher ground such as atop a cliff or tall hill. Exception will be some stone throwing siege units that shoot in arcs who can shoot projectile over them.
I think it will vastly improve the game by adding to realism and making strategic gameplay deeper. It mean walls will become more useful in protecting your units and structures and provide a reason to mount units on walls; and make unit dynamics more varied depending on situations: such as melee units having an edge over archers in built up areas.
Of course, that's if the engine can support this. Does it?
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Aren't that tower a bit too small for a wonder? Or we just make a gigantic version? (I recall the full scale replica is only 12 m tall). Otherwise, good idea!
You can have it surrounded by a courtyard.
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How do you feel having the Song/Reform 1 wonder be Su Song's Clock Tower instead? To me it feels more 'significant'. And its probably better if we don't have both wonders be pagodas!
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Hmm.. If they were mounted archers then there's going to be some role overlap because the Long Wu were mounted archers as well. Maybe just stick to 3 champions? There are loads units now as it is lol!
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How much is one liao anyway? Can't even find any result even using specific terms in Chinese such as "Ming Dynasty Liao". Cause if the biggest Treasure Ship is 2000 liao then a liao back then must be a ton or more.
If we can't get a good reference for something like the ironclad rammer as a Reform 1 unit why not just use something more certain, but still unique to them instead? Like big paddle ships with trebuchets? I just think we should differentiate reform 1 and 2 ships more than just 'big slow ships vs fast ships'.
I think the mod's original idea is to have specialization option as part of you 3rd phase upgrade. Dunno if that has changed though.
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I completely agree with your play style decision when it comes to land warfare. But I respectfully disagree with giving the Ming significantly smaller ships. Considering that:
* According to Ventian explorer Niccolò de' Conti, who lived at the same time as Zheng He: in a trip across South East Asia he described seeing junks with 5 masts that weighted 2000 tons. This is consistent with Chinese accounts, and though it's possible both sides may have exaggerated a little it does show that Ming ships during the 1400s were significantly bigger than anything in Europe at the time.
* Zheng He's voyages is one of the first things people think about when it comes to the Ming Dynasty. Therefore: one of the reasons someone would go with Ming is because they will want big ships. Having a rather small 166 ton junk as the biggest 'normal' ship will be disappointing: it's about the same size as a 1400s European Medium Carrack (like the 19m Santa Maria). The Ming should have way bigger warships than that.
* The use of small and fast warships is more characteristic the Late Ming. Such as in the battles of Xicaowan (1522) and Liaoluo Bay (1633) against the Portuguese and Dutch.
* IMO, Shrinking a huge ship to something 1/3 its size (600 tons to 166 tons) after an upgrade is hilarious! You can't get more anticlimactic than that!
I would suggest these changes:
* Give the Ming a bigger ship: like the 50m+ Fuchuan (大福船). So now Ming Heavy War Junk replaces Song Heavy War Junk.
* I don't think the Scout Junk should be a post reform unit. It should be for early game scouting as the name implies. By late games players wouldn't be needing a new scout unit they would be rolling out their toughest units.
* The song need their own special naval unit: maybe it can be the Superheavy War Junk, or maybe a Large Tower Ship with multiple trebuchets for shoreline bombardment. Maybe even make the Ironclad Rammer post Reform 1?
* Gameplay wise, I would do this: Reform 1 ships excel in offshore siege/bombardment. They have trebuchet thrown bombs that causes splash damage against land units and does heavy damage against buildings and forts. Reform 2 ships excel in ship to ship combat. They have more health and anti ship cannons, but are not as good against defensive structures. IMO this reflects better the notion of the Song's emphasis on river/coastal warfare and the early Ming's status as one of the world's strongest naval power.
As for the Treasure Ship: this site:http://ioacs.org/boat/zhengheboat.html which is backed by Chinese maritime historians describes the second biggest ships in the treasure fleet as being 120m x 50m in size. Sounds crazy right? Anyways its got a very good collection of historically accurate ship models from different dynasties.
Sorry if I'm coming across as a bit critical. But I reckon your proposal is looking amazing so far. The most complete out of the entire forum lol!
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Yes. That makes sense.
But what happens to the Superheavy War Junk once you get Reform 2? Will it shrink? If so wouldn't that be weird?
Didn't the Ming have 50m War Junks that were supposedly part of the treasure fleet?
And wouldn't 2000 liao translate to only 830 tons? That's about the size of an average 16th century galleon. Miles smaller then even the most 'toned down' size estimate for the Treasure Ship.
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Song dynasty ships are way bigger than early Ming Dynasty ships!?
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Excuse the double post!
Updated the proposal yet again!
@Wolflance
As you have pointed out I was still playing around with historical accuracy a little too much. So based on you suggestion both archers now get melee. I also realized that I got some of the champion units mixed up and now I give up on heroes granting you special units because it was getting confusing. And finally: added an upgrade that turns all your citizen soldiers into 'semi-champion' units to reflect the collapse of the Fu Bing during mid Tang. On another note: what is this 'barrier troop' you speak of? Do you have a Chinese name for it? I can't find any info on that. And do you know what 神威軍 (Shen Wei Army) does and what weapon they use? I can't find sufficient info.
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Thanks for the input on the armour dude!
As for upgrading archers. I'm aware that this was the case historically, but this is the thing. We have 2 archers, and I don't want their roles to overlap too much. So I gave archers the Modao to make them the more likely to be the favored offensive unit, despite crossbows having longer range, now that melee attacks has given them better survivability in the open. This leaves the crossbowmen as a more specialist ranged unit better suited for base defense/mounting walls and towers. Or I can give them a weaker melee weapon like the quaterstaff or maybe a dao?
And yes, Thousand Riders and Long Wu were the same: they were called Thousand Riders during Wu Zetian's reign, and later Long Wu during Xuanzong's reign, so I made them one unit now accordingly. Added a Modao infantry unlockable by Getting Li Siye and Wu Zetain no longer unlocks a special champion unit, but grants you a small trickle of resources.
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I'm gonna be a bit cheeky with this one...
Alpha 19 'Sun Tzu'
Hidden motives much?
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Hey Wolflance! May I ask on what's your opinion on what a Tang Fubing unit should look like? More specifically how much armour did they wear?
I'm doing some unit concepts arts right now, and coming up with a look for the champion units was easy enough. But the 'least' armoured looking depictions of Tang infantry I could find looks basically the same as in your 3rd picture (The one from the tomb paintings). Should they look like that? Or should they start with little/no armour (Like that archer in one of your pictures) and gain this armour after upgrade.
Oh and I updated the proposals based on some of your suggestions.
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Dude I'm sorry to be a bit of a pain again. But I strongly, and I have to stress STRONGLY, disagree with cutting the Nest of Bees unit and I urge you to put it back. It's such an awesome and unique unit with so much character and potential and so representative of early Ming gunpowder warfare it just HAS to be included. IMO its role don't overlap anymore than Cavalry Lancer vs Five Armies Battalion, or the Hand gunner vs Divine Engine Battalion, or a WWII Light Tank vs a Heavy Tank. One is weaker, cheaper, more mobile and is an infantry, the other a stronger, more expensive, slower and is a seige unit.
IMO, it's not really that many units. Many are just upgrades/replacements of other units like in Age of Empires.
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Well on the rocket launcher wheelbarrow. They were used in the Jingnan War of 1401 which fits into our timeframe. According to Grandhistorian: Termed the Huo Che or "Fire Cart", these appeared in Ming dynasty descriptions of special Huo Che armed military units ca. A.D. 1401 and were used in the Jingnan war of A.D. 1401-1403 which saw Emperor Zhu Di replace Emperor Jianwen on the celestial throne. These early wheeled rocket launchers were simple collections of four Chang She Po Di Jian (Long Serpent Kill Enemy Arrows) launchers on the top, and two Bai Hu Qi Ben Jian (Hundred Tiger Together Run Arrows) launchers at the side, strung together to be fired all at once or fired individually, to allow for a more sustained fire directed at opposing enemy troops. Manned by four soldiers, two manning the rockets and two providing the motive power, the Huo Che was an incredible weapon capable of letting loose up to a fantastic total of 320 rockets from all six launch tubes." See that same link as above post but click on Huo Che "Fire Cart".
In terms of gameplay I'd see it as being stronger than nest of bees, but more slow and expensive. So it's like a 'proper seige engine' and nest of bees being an infantry from the barracks. Have it replace the siege crossbow instead because don't you think it's a bit weird to replace a large siege engine that takes a whole team to operate with a single footsoldier? And maybe even have it so nest of bees can mount and shoot rockets from towers, walls and some ships and the rocket carts can't.
As for the counterweight trebuchet, My bad 'cause I didn't make it clear that I never meant it as an upgrade to the traction one. The traction trebuchet would be more mobile, has quicker fire rate and is AOE anti-unit. The counterweight one would have to be deployed and is anti building. This should be consistant with their historical use. I'd have it exclusive to Reform 1.
As for the rest: Good point I agree!
Nice new update BTW! Goes perfectly with the mod's idea of 3rd phase specialization! Now that I think about it this addresses what to do with the Yuan: A 3rd phase specialization for the Mongols. They can choose either Yuan Dynasty or Golden Horde.
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A well researched update to the proposal mate so hats off to you! I Espically like how you handle the transition into early Ming and your knowledge of Ming 禁衛軍 Jin-Wei-Jun champion units!
A few suggestions I would add to your unit roster though, if you don't mind:
1) Maybe at least allow Barracks units to build some military buildings like barracks, towers and walls.
2) 神臂弩 Divine Arms Crossbowmen. Good vs heavy infantry and cavalry. One of the most famous of Song weapons. Or are 硬弩手 Crossbowmen the same thing?
3) 錦衣衛 Jinyiwei. Post reform champion unit for spying and espionage. Armed with boardsword. Big line of sight. Can disguise as enemy units in order to assassinate enemy heroes. Loses disguise when attacking.
4) 回回砲 Muslim Trebuchet. Mid game counterweight trebuchet that the Song reverse-engineered from the Mongols. Maybe have it replaced by heavy bombard post reform?
5) 火箭車 Rocket launcher wheelbarrows!
6) Post-reform maybe replace siege crossbows with a lighter bombard that shoots giant iron tipped wooden arrows instead so it can still fulfil the same function? Although info on it are hard to find, and I'm having trouble trying find the right name for it from a Chinese source. This link: http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/index-english12122007.html (click on 'fire arrows') calls it 神機箭 (Shenji Jian), but I thought the term was used for rockets. Campare with the Korean Chongtongjeon.
7) Why the removal of Flamethrowers?
8) It would be cool if the Treasure Ship is like a naval hero unit. You can only build one. But it has massive HP and good vs enemy ships. It can function like a mobile trading port, so you can use a merchant ship to have it set a trade route between it and an ally's dock. And finally can also train non-elite ground units when next to land.
9) You must have heard of it. That ship which the front is filled with bombs and can be detatched after latching onto an enemy ship with spikes. That could make for an interesting unit!
10) Maybe have certain ships be able to deploy water mines.
11) What about having the Porcelain Tower of Nanjing as the wonder? It was built during the early 1400s so it fits the timeframe and it makes sense since Wonders are meant to be final phase structures. I know other games have done it before but hey, its one of the 7 medieval wonders and Liaodi Pagoda IMO isn't as pretty!
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3) Personally, from a gameplay perspective, I don't see the point. Both are gonna occupy the same role so in a way one cancels out the other.
5) Well, I can't find any direct mention of flamethrowers used outside of naval engagements either. While I think they most likely had them, I agree, best save them for part 2 for now.
Sijiao trebuchets are larger and stronger then whrilwind catapults but can't be moved around after deploying. 四腳 (Sijiao) means, for footed, because it is mounted on a fixed four legged frame.
Agree that it'd be probably safer to just have double bows instead.
6) This is the passage from Needham's book, Science and Civilisation in China Volume 5, that mentions the Dragon Ships:
"The Wu Yileh Pei Shih7 (Materials for the History of the Wu-Yiieh State in the Five Dynasties Period), written by Lin Yii8 only a few decades later, gives us an extremely interesting passage. The Wen-Mu King (Wen-Mu Wang9) was in command at an important naval battle when with more than five hundred dragon-like battleships he attacked the men of Huai" at a place called Lang-shan ChianglO (Wolf Mountain River). This was Chhien Yuan-Kuanll, the' seventh son and later (+932) the successor of the Wu-Su king (Wu-Su WangI2), Chhien ChhiuY They won a great victory over the other side's forces 'because fire oil (huo yul4) was used to burn them up'. Then the author's commentary goes on:
What is 'fire oil? It comes from Arabia (Ta-Shih Kuo') in the southern seas. It is spouted forth from iron tubes. and when meeting with water or wet things it gives forth flame and smoke even more abundantly. \Vu-Su Wang used to decorate the mouths of the tubes with silver, so that if (the tank and tube) fell into the hands of the enemy, they would scrape olr the silver and reject the rest of the apparatus. So the fire oil itself would not get into their hands (and could be recovered later)"
Pages 81 and 82
Note that it quotes from the second book you listed as well.
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I need more building artwork
Easier to do than units 
I intend to redesign the Civic Centre to give it a more "Tang" feel. Please hold on till then
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@Ayakashi
I read your proposal. Mind if I give some opinion?
1) Heroes - Some participant of the Battle of Talas ought to be included.
Like Li Siye.2.1) Infantry - Tang Dynasty is probably the only Chinese Dynasty where bow is more prominent than crossbow. Having two unit of crossbow unit is over-representing it...
That is probably because Tang Infantry are really geared for getting into face-smashing range. Tang archers and crossbowmen are trained, expected, and regularly ordered to charge into melee combat after one or two volleys.
2.2) I think by medieval period, dedicated swordsman unit no longer plays any central role on the battlefield (unlike antiquity). So Chinese faction can make do without one - unless, that put the whole faction at a big disadvantage.
3) Cavalry - Need a heavy cavalry unit.
4) Champion Unit
Tang had so many Imperial Guard unit so either one is fine.
Note that MoDao is primary used by
1) (ordinary) archers and crossbowmen
2) Barrier troops/Blocking units - Used for execution of deserters, etc, that sort of thing. Maybe give it a buff aura or something.
3) Specialist troop.
5) Siege Unit
Flamethrower is mostly a Song Dynasty thing, AFAIK.
Tang Arcuballista has only one or two bows (兩弓弩).
Never heard of the 四腳弩, although traction trebuchet are indeed already in common use.
Uncertain about the 連弩
6) Naval Unit
I know about the Naval Flamethrower (and the ‘decorate with silver‘ part), not sure about the name though. Dragon ship seems to be a AOE invention.
2.1) I see your point. I got more archers than crossbowmen already if you include mounted ones. Maybe we can do without the repeating crossbowmen but personally I'd have an early game ranged fodder unit. Maybe just normal composite bow archers?
2.2) I don't think I have one. You got Fubing shock troops in which some uses swords and some don't. All other units that uses swords are archers that use them as a secondary melee attack. Unless the Modao Counts? The Tang dynasty dao needs representation IMO, its a beautiful weapon and is what katanas were originally based on.
3) The Long Wu Cavalry are heavy.
4) My idea is to have it like some equivalent of the Zhanmadao, like a heavy, primarily anti cavalry unit. Do you think it should be a Fubing archer unit instead? Maybe even an upgrade to the crossbow unit? That buff aura idea sounds pretty cool though.
5) Both the land and naval variations of the flamethrower works the same way. If the technology existed back then I don't think we should assume it was only ever used in one naval engagement.
On the triple bow crossbow, according to this page:
http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/index-english12122007.html
"Again, no one is certain of the exact date for this step-up in crossbow technology but the upgrade from the single bow to that of the double or triple bow occurred roughly at the same time and the earliest references pointed to a 5th century A.D. start although they only came into extensive use in the 8th to 11th centuries A.D., during the later part of the Tang dynasty, through to the chaotic period of minor dynasties of post-Tang and into the Song dynasty."
If still unsure, we can just have double bow instead?
This same website also has info on the Sijiao Pao and Liang Nu:
http://www.grandhistorian.com/chinesesiegewarfare/index-english12122007.html
6) It's not an AOE invention. All articles regarding the battle of Langshan Jiang mentions I came across mentions the dragon ship. One theory is that these were repurposed dragon boats normally used during the dragon boat festival. I would have them to be somewhat like this:
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Proposal revised. And sorry for the Bump!
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So will this faction have champion units or not? IMHO I think we still need them, since all other factions have them and the unit roster does seem quite boring by comparison especially during late game. I understand the point about how existing units already cover all roles so maybe to balance things out a couple may need to be cut, nerfed or re-purposed? Another possibility is to have champion units trainable only from a palace type structure not dissimilar to the Persian one of which only one can be built. This would reflect their historical role as defenders of the imperial capitals.
As for what they are I would suggest:
羽林騎/Yulin Cavalry: An armoured but slower cavalry archer that can also melee with sword.
斬馬劍/Zhanmajian Swordsmen: Two handed swordsmen for anti cavalry and heavy infantry.
將軍/General: Works like a 'mini-hero'. Fights like a sword cavalry but has a small aura that boosts the efficiency of nearby units. Maybe only 3-5 can be trained?
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chicken engine
in General Discussion
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Dunno if serious or not but dude you somehow really cracked me up
Imagine an RTS with revolutionary chicken economy simulation! That'd be something right!?