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m7600

===[TASK]=== Kushite Workshop

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Fourth contribution.
Not sure if you also want the ambient occlusion file, the source file, and the actor file. I'm including them here, like before. But if they're superfluous, I'll only include the .dae file in future contributions, and I'll leave the texture baking and actor editing to you.

Screenshot from 2020-07-21 15-17-57.png

kush_workshop.png

kush_workshop.dae kush_workshop.blend workshop.xml

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It's pretty nice, I would add more props under the roofs though. and maybe in the courtyard,  it feels a bit empty right now :)   Sadly they only have siege towers else I'd have suggested to add parts.

 

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4 minutes ago, Stan` said:

It's pretty nice, I would add more props under the roofs though. and maybe in the courtyard,  it feels a bit empty right now :)   Sadly they only have siege towers else I'd have suggested to add parts.

 

Thanks! I'll fix it later today or tomorrow. I admit that I have no idea what siege weapons the historical Kushites used. @Sundiata, a little help here please?

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9 hours ago, m7600 said:

I admit that I have no idea what siege weapons the historical Kushites used. @Sundiata, a little help here please?

We know very little about Kushite siege warfare, and even less about specific equipment. The only direct reference we have is from Piye's victory stele describing his conquest of Egypt, which talks about the construction of a "moveable tower" and a raised platform for archers and possibly even catapults. The relevant excerpts from Piye's stele:

Quote

 

Then they fought against The-Crag-Great-of-Victories.

They found it full with an army made up of every brave soldier of North-land.

Then a movable tower was made against it,

its wall was overthrown,

(and) a great blood bath was made among them, the number (of dead) being uncountable,

 

 

And the following excerpt is also relevant. The translation of "catapults" is not entirely certain here:

Quote

 

A (counter-)wall was built to cover the (city-)wall.

A platform was built up to raise the archers as they shot arrows

and the 'catapults' as they cast stones,

(thus) slaying men among them daily.

After (some) days Hare-town [Hermopolis] stank to the nose,

being without its usual (fresh) scent.

Then Hare-town placed itself on its belly,

 

 

Archaeology has also shown the use of sapping (digging at the foundation of walls), going back to the Kerma Period.

I must note that the current siege tower in-game is a place holder. We don't know exactly what it really looked like, but if it looked anything like Egyptian siege towers, of which we only have a single extant period depiction (tomb of Intef I, Thebes, 11th Dynasty), then it may have been an open design. Basically a scaffolding on wheels. 

Egyptian siege tower.jpg

 

Intef Siege Tower thebes tomb.jpg

"A siege tower with disk wheel is depicted in the tomb of Intef, dating to the Eleventh Dynasty (© H. Köpp-Junk; drawing: A. Kireenko, after B. Jaroš-Deckert, Grabung im Asasif 1964-1970 V: Das Grab des Jnj-jtj.f. Die Wandmalereien der 11. Dynastie [Mainz: Zabern, 1984], folding map 1)."

Of course, Intef's tomb predates Piye's stele by well over a millennium! Notwithstanding that Piye himself actually predates 0AD's timeframe by 2 centuries. There's no way to know how siege towers developed over all those centuries. Maybe Piye's tower looked exactly the same, maybe it was far more developed. I really can't say...

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On 7/23/2020 at 4:48 AM, Sundiata said:

And the following excerpt is also relevant. The translation of "catapults" is not entirely certain here:

Maybe the text was referring to ''stone-throwers'' (As in troops throwing rocks with slings or their hands) and it was mistaken with a mechanical stone thrower?

This passage from the Bible is sometimes interpreted as evidence for catapults; but may also be a description of murder holes:

Quote

In Jerusalem he made devices invented for use on the towers and on the corner defenses so that soldiers could shoot arrows and hurl large stones from the walls.

 

Edited by Ultimate Aurelian
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It's probably just me, but your proposal seems a bit underwhelming. Perhaps you could make the actual buildings occupy more of the structure's space? For comparison the actors currently in game (not all of them great):

Spoiler

workshops.thumb.png.a2d50af886c499676c633f4612d5f32a.png

 

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24 minutes ago, Nescio said:

not all of them great

What is wrong with them?

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4 minutes ago, Stan` said:

What is wrong with them?

It's mostly aesthetics. Some are look good and visually form a single structure (e.g. brit, gaul, maur), others are too open for my taste (e.g. cart, mace, ptol). Anyway, I'm not asking for the existing content to be redesigned, merely that the new kush actor should aim to be above average.

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6 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Maybe the text was referring to ''stone-throwers'' (As in troops throwing rocks with slings or their hands) and it was mistaken with a mechanical stone thrower ?

That's what I first thought. These must just be referring to slingers. By the way, I think Kushites might have actually had slingers, but I'd have to research a little deeper again. Heliodorus actually mentions slingers, but it's from a romance, not a work of history. The thing is that the people who did the translation are very capable people. I think they would have discussed the possibility/probability of human stone throwers. I think it's because the text might be referring to a "thing", an inanimate object that casts stone, as opposed to people. Otherwise they would have just translated it as slingers. 

6 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

This passage from the Bible is sometimes interpreted as evidence catapults; but may also be a description of murder holes:

Quote

In Jerusalem he made devices invented for use on the towers and on the corner defenses so that soldiers could shoot arrows and hurl large stones from the walls.

 

I've brought up this exact argument before as well (search forum for "Uzziah"). Just a generation before Piye, we find the account of King Uzziah using "machines" or "devices" to hurl stones from the walls of Jerusalem, and within a generation Jerusalem was within the Kushite sphere of influence. There was ample opportunity for cultural exchange here, and there were actually resident Kushites in Judah shortly after Piye. Introduction of catapults from the Levant is speculative, but not impossible. Not even that improbable, considering the explosion of "Egyptian" influence in the Levant and the tributes sent from the Levant to Kush, shortly after Piye's rule. It's just that the chronology is a little funky. When Piye was sieging those Egyptian cities, he hadn't conquered Lower Egypt yet, and contacts up to that point with the Levant must have been indirect. Then again, it just takes one knowledgeable person to spread the know-how, so who knows? For now, it will remain in the realm of speculation until we find more tangible clues. 

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13 hours ago, Nescio said:

Anyway, I'm not asking for the existing content to be redesigned, merely that the new kush actor should aim to be above average.

Nescio, you make some fair points, but allow me to say that these are my first contributions to the main game, so I wouldn't expect them to be above average :D I do appreciate the vote of confidence though, I'll try to do my best :)

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@Sundiata so any siege weapons we could depict ?

Sorry for the delayed review.

The building looks okay, but still feels empty see this one has interesting things to look at in every corner, There could be some pottery under the arches, some shelves maybe between two arches You might also want to add some tools, hatchets, hammers etc

image.png

Other than that you need to optimize the polycound of your planks, a lot of faces are not visible, and yet do not need to be added :)

image.png

The weels are not round :)

Keep up the good work!

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On 7/24/2020 at 11:15 AM, Sundiata said:

That's what I first thought. These must just be referring to slingers. By the way, I think Kushites might have actually had slingers, but I'd have to research a little deeper again. Heliodorus actually mentions slingers, but it's from a romance, not a work of history. The thing is that the people who did the translation are very capable people. I think they would have discussed the possibility/probability of human stone throwers. I think it's because the text might be referring to a "thing", an inanimate object that casts stone, as opposed to people. Otherwise they would have just translated it as slingers. 

See the footnote at the page 283 (or page 11 of the pdf):

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25150056

https://sci-hub.tw/

image.thumb.png.f4e6b95e5b919087219c55a11733eda6.png

image.thumb.png.39b8982cc7a37bafd9cc0e05c22db80b.png

 

The translation of Emmanuel de Rougé in 1876 says "throwers" as well. However it is a feminine noun in French, like it could be applied to a device. Nevertheless, it is done in the purpose to kill "a man a day" or slaying men daily as in your translation.

645677273_Chrestomathie_gyptienne_par_M_le_...Roug_Emmanuel_bpt6k6369953m_45.thumb.jpeg.6a836d566a52b0c72f5bd7ef6a1cde5a.jpeg

Edited by Genava55
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On 7/24/2020 at 4:09 AM, Ultimate Aurelian said:

This passage from the Bible is sometimes interpreted as evidence for catapults; but may also be a description of murder holes:

In Jerusalem he made devices invented for use on the towers and on the corner defenses so that soldiers could shoot arrows and hurl large stones from the walls.

On 7/24/2020 at 11:15 AM, Sundiata said:

I've brought up this exact argument before as well (search forum for "Uzziah"). Just a generation before Piye, we find the account of King Uzziah using "machines" or "devices" to hurl stones from the walls of Jerusalem, and within a generation Jerusalem was within the Kushite sphere of influence. There was ample opportunity for cultural exchange here, and there were actually resident Kushites in Judah shortly after Piye. Introduction of catapults from the Levant is speculative, but not impossible. Not even that improbable, considering the explosion of "Egyptian" influence in the Levant and the tributes sent from the Levant to Kush, shortly after Piye's rule. It's just that the chronology is a little funky. When Piye was sieging those Egyptian cities, he hadn't conquered Lower Egypt yet, and contacts up to that point with the Levant must have been indirect. Then again, it just takes one knowledgeable person to spread the know-how, so who knows? For now, it will remain in the realm of speculation until we find more tangible clues. 

The passage in question is 2 Chronicles 26:15. The two books of Chronicles form a prose narrative covering the time from Adam to Cyrus, the Persian king who allowed the Jews in exile in Babylon to return to Jerusalem (c. 535 BC). They're literary texts belonging to a religious tradition and written for a contemporary audience. Based on textual and linguistic grounds, modern scholars agree Chronicles was probably written in the second half of the 4th C BC. The Uzziah passage is reflective of the time it was written: Alexander besieged Tyre (332 BC) and Gaza (332), during which both sides reportedly had torsion engines, and those two cities were in the same region as and had ancient ties with Jerusalem.

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18 minutes ago, Stan` said:

So, ballista or no ballista?

For the Kushites? No ballista. :) Some ladder or siege tower, see the image @Sundiata posted earlier.

On 7/24/2020 at 11:15 AM, Sundiata said:

That's what I first thought. These must just be referring to slingers. By the way, I think Kushites might have actually had slingers, but I'd have to research a little deeper again. Heliodorus actually mentions slingers, but it's from a romance, not a work of history. The thing is that the people who did the translation are very capable people. I think they would have discussed the possibility/probability of human stone throwers. I think it's because the text might be referring to a "thing", an inanimate object that casts stone, as opposed to people. Otherwise they would have just translated it as slingers. 

2 hours ago, Genava55 said:

See the footnote at the page 283 (or page 11 of the pdf):

https://www.jstor.org/stable/25150056

Slingers would make sense. Likewise, large amounts of sling stones have been found at Celtic hill forts, but Caesar does not mention Celtic slingers in field battles, so perhaps they're used only in siege warfare? Due to the stationary nature the impracticle size or weight of stones is not an issue, moreover they could be stockpiled in advance, and in siege warfare slings actually have a clear advantage, because they could release projectiles at any angle.

Just a thought, feel free to shoot. :)

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28 minutes ago, Stan` said:

So, ballista or no ballista?

No one ever argued that Kushites should have ballistae. Just discussing sources :) 

It's possible they had, but we don't have any secure, or period sources that provide any definite answers (yet). Just possible clues and indications, but as I said a little earlier:

Quote

For now, it will remain in the realm of speculation until we find more tangible clues. 

 

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