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m7600

civ: Ethiopians

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4 hours ago, m7600 said:

On another note, I'm thinking of changing the name Ethiopians to Zagweans

The Solomonic Dynasty and the Zagweans are both Christian dynasties. In my opinion the cultural change from one dynasty to another was very minimal. I assume the biggest change from one Dynasty to another was the bloodline of he Emperor.

In addition, "The church of Genneta Maryam, which is traditionally believed to have been built by Yekuno Amlak"

Genneta_Maryam.jpg

Furthermore, the Sacred Landscapes of Tigray has 121 rock-hewn churches dating anywhere between the 5th and 14th century AD. Rock-hewn churches are very common in Ethiopia. In addition, I think they survived over several hundred years, simply because they are build from the rock.

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40 minutes ago, balduin said:

Furthermore, the Sacred Landscapes of Tigray has 121 rock-hewn churches dating anywhere between the 5th and 14th century AD. Rock-hewn churches are very common in Ethiopia. In addition, I think they survived over several hundred years, simply because they are build from the rock.

They're actually still being built today...

https://www.addisherald.com/ethiopian-modern-rock-hewan-churches/

 

 

50 minutes ago, balduin said:

I actually think they used some quilted cotton armors. However, I was unable to find anything definitive.

 

Indeed, they did. I only realized this past year. Give me some time and I might be able to scrounge up some more references. 

 

51 minutes ago, balduin said:

Almost all the wall paintings from the Ethiopian churches show Ethiopian warriors without chainmails.

Yes, but the Futuh Al Habasi is a period account written by an eye-witness. If Sihab ad-Din Ahmad bin 'Abd al-Qader saw chainmail, there was probably chainmail. Probably not a lot. But apparently enough to equip some elite units. 

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1 hour ago, balduin said:

In my opinion the cultural change from one dynasty to another was very minimal. I assume the biggest change from one Dynasty to another was the bloodline of he Emperor.

In addition, "The church of Genneta Maryam, which is traditionally believed to have been built by Yekuno Amlak"

It is interesting that there is no clear record of the Solomonic capital before Gondar; it's possible that Lalibela remained the capital, after the end of Zagwe period.

7 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Yes, but the Futuh Al Habasi is a period account written by an eye-witness. If Sihab ad-Din Ahmad bin 'Abd al-Qader saw chainmail, there was probably chainmail. Probably not a lot. But apparently enough to equip some elite units. 

Do you think the Malians could have mail as well, or should they just have padded armor ?

Edited by Ultimate Aurelian
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So, should the civ be called Solomonics? Or Ethiopians. Because here's what I'm thinking: this civ could be split into several. One of them would have Gondarine buildings, but that will be for the future. Another one would have Lalibela style buildings. These would be the Zagweans, or Solomonics. I still think Philipson's theory about some of the rock churches actually being fortresses is worth looking into. If this is so, then the CC, barracks, walls, fortress and temple could be based on different rock churches. I'm already using Bet Danaghel for the defense tower, so why not? Or maybe I'm just wrong lol

Edited by m7600
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17 hours ago, m7600 said:

So, should the civ be called Solomonics? 

They could be called just Ethiopians or Abyssinians; the Roman civ in the game is called Romans (Instead of res publica).

I am not sure about using rock churches for all buildings; might give off the wrong impression and make it look like whole cities were built from rock.

My suggestion would be keep rock churches for temple and tower; barracks could be vernacular or in the CC's style.

For fortress a similar style as the CC but applied to fortress footprint (Or maybe base it on Gabriel-rufael church, although i have doubts if it was a fortress).

Walls could be based on Balduin's suggestion (For gameplay, add simple towers to them like roman siege wall or  Zimbabwean wall),  i quoted his post bellow for convenience:

Spoiler
Quote

For the walls I would use the the fortified city of Harar Jugol and Fasil Ghebbi as inspiration. The fortified city of Harar is today in Ethopia. However, it was part of the Muslim empires during the middle ages. The wall around the city was build in the 16th century.

Harar,_porta_di_buda_03.jpg

source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Harar,_porta_di_buda_03.jpg

harar-jugol-stock-photography_csp2134230

source: https://www.canstockphoto.com/harar-jugol-21342309.html

Town_of_Harar_with_Citywall.jpg

source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Town_of_Harar_with_Citywall.jpg

Fasil Ghebbi

FasilGibi.jpg

source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:FasilGibi.jpg

building walls from stones does not seem to be uncommon.

story-progress-ethiopia-large.png

source: https://www.irishaid.ie/stories-of-progress/casestudies/archive/2017/february/support-farmers-ethiopia/

Mekele+Feb+2012+066.JPG

source: https://ouryuppielife.blogspot.com/2012/02/mekelle-tigrai-region.html

konso-ethiopia-africa-village-people-505

source: https://www.dreamstime.com/stock-photo-konso-ethiopia-africa-village-people-image50554380

tigrai_stone_houses.jpg

source: http://www.tigraionline.com/articles/article121223.html

stone-houses-in-debre-damo-monastery-eth

source: https://www.gettyimages.de/detail/foto/stone-houses-in-debre-damo-monastery-ethiopia-lizenzfreies-bild/1021568538

pre-p652m1166935.jpg

source: https://www.plainpicture.com/en/images/1387861?ref=1387861

00421861.jpg

source: https://www.awl-images.com/stock-photo/ethiopia-tigray-region-gheralta-typical-tigrayan-homesteads-whose-dwelling/search/detail-0_00421861.html

Surprising is the fact that neither the city wall of Harar nor Fasil Ghebbi uses turrets. It is just one long wall, interupted by entrances. The seems to be a common pattern even the fortified villages of the Konso people  and houses in Tigray. 

 

 

Edited by Ultimate Aurelian
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On 7/1/2020 at 12:59 AM, m7600 said:

some of the rock churches actually being fortresses

Why are fortresses so important to you? I do not see a problem having a faction which does not have fortresses.

On 7/1/2020 at 1:38 AM, Ultimate Aurelian said:

I am not sure about using rock churches for all buildings; might give off the wrong impression and make it look like whole cities were built from rock.

My suggestion would be keep rock churches for temple and tower; barracks could be vernacular or in the CC's style.

I agree with @Ultimate Aurelian.

In my opinion the world is changing constantly. Civilizations rise and fall. Nations are created and disappear [1]. However, not all the buildings, traditions and cultural aspects disappear. They coexist with newer buildings, traditions and cultural aspects. During the Solomonic period in Ethiopia, there were buildings from the Kingdom of Axum, the Zagwe dynasty and the Solomonic dynasty.

Because the world is changing constantly, I see picking a time frame and simply sticking to it for the purpose of a 0 A.D. mod as essential. Try to understand how the civilizations might have looked like during the time frame you picked. Simply get inspired by the historical and archeological references in the design of units, buildings and ships.

In my view it is very interesting that the Ethiopians have such a wide variety of buildings, because they used different building materials. I would embrace the difference and make it part of the mod.

[1] For example Sudan and South Sudan are pretty new nations, formerly belonging together.

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On 6/30/2020 at 1:04 PM, Sundiata said:

So, yeah, to my utter surprise, they did indeed use chainmail to some degree...

I read your sources again, less tired than the last time. Yes, they most likely used chain mail to some degree. However, it is still surprising to not see them in the wall paintings or later photographs. Maybe, wearing chain mail a fashion trend during the end of the 15th and beginning of the 16th century.

Do you know if there are any descriptions of archer in Futuh Al-Habasa or by Francisco Álvares?

 

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1 hour ago, balduin said:

Why are fortresses so important to you? I do not see a problem having a faction which does not have fortresses.

I think it would be accurate to have them for this civ. I've been reading some of Philipson's papers, and I have to say that they seem legit. His colleagues think the same.

1 hour ago, balduin said:

However, not all the buildings, traditions and cultural aspects disappear. They coexist with newer buildings, traditions and cultural aspects. During the Solomonic period in Ethiopia, there were buildings from the Kingdom of Axum, the Zagwe dynasty and the Solomonic dynasty.

Because the world is changing constantly, I see picking a time frame and simply sticking to it for the purpose of a 0 A.D. mod as essential. Try to understand how the civilizations might have looked like during the time frame you picked.

This sounds contradictory to me. Should this civ have Aksumite buildings or not? I can't understand if you are saying if they should be in or out of the mod. On the one hand you're saying that this diversity should be embraced, but on the other hand you're saying that we should stick to the timeline. So I don't understand if you want to have Aksumite buildings or not. 

I'm not trying to be aggresive here, I just don't understand what you're saying. Can you please clarify? 

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1 hour ago, balduin said:

Why are fortresses so important to you? I do not see a problem having a faction which does not have fortresses.

It would be possible to not have a fortress but i don't see why this faction specifically should not have one;  you previously suggested a speculative wall and tower so why not a speculative fortress ?

For example Zimbabwe has fortress, towers and garrisonable walls; in real life they did not use fortresses and their walls had no battlements.

The Britons in vanilla use a scottish broch as fortress to fill in the gaps.

 

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Just now, m7600 said:

This sounds contradictory to me. Should this civ have Aksumite buildings or not? I can't understand if you are saying if they should be in or out of the mod. On the one hand you're saying that this diversity should be embraced, but on the other hand you're saying that we should stick to the timeline. So I don't understand if you want to have Aksumite buildings or not. 

I'm not trying to be aggresive here, I just don't understand what you're saying. Can you please clarify? 

I think he meant that multiple types of buildings were in use that timeline.

Personally i think the only Aksumite style building should be the monastery UB (Based on Debre Domo).

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1 minute ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

I think he meant that multiple types of buildings were in use that timeline.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant.

Furthermore, the Yemrehana Krestos Church which was build 11th or 12th century. According to Wikipedia:

Quote

Built of stone and wood, it was erected in the architectural tradition of the ancient Kingdom of Aksum. (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemrehana_Krestos_Church)

Yemerehne_kristos,_esterno,_01.jpg

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yemerehne_kristos,_esterno,_01.jpg

The Yemrehana Krestos Church is a couple of miles/kilometer away from Lalibela. The architectural style not an departure from the Aksumit style, but rather the next iteration towards the rock-hewn churches of Lalibela.

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16 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

For example Zimbabwe has fortress, towers and garrisonable walls; in real life they did not use fortresses and their walls had no battlements.

The Britons in vanilla use a scottish broch as fortress to fill in the gaps.

The Zimb fortress was made by looking at the broch as inspiration for the shape.

To add to what you're saying, I think that the line between speculation and accuracy is not always clear in this game (should it be? That's up for debate).

I don't want to use the same example all the time, but I must: elephants attacking buildings other than wooden palisades is something that has never happened in reality.

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The Ethiopians had Fortresses on mountaintops. Amba Geshen was one. Amba Geshen was used as prison and to keep the imperial treasury. The fortress was captured by Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi, from the Adal Sultanate. The capture attempts and final capture are mentioned in the Futuh al-Habasha.

In addition, Francisco Álvares described Amba Geshen. Today, nothing is left of Amba Geshen, other than two rebuild churches.

However, during the British expedition to Abyssinia (Ethiopia) in 1868, British soldiers took a photograph of the gate of Amba Mariam or fortress of Magdala [1], before burning it down.

1867-68_Abyssinia_Expedition,_(47),_Magd

source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1867-68_Abyssinia_Expedition,_(47),_Magdala,_sentry_post_over_gate,_(Custom).jpg

The walls around Amba Mariam, don't look very different from the city walls of Harar Jugol or walled villages. For more information have a look at the topic I posted earlier:

[1] Mariam and Magdala are both a name for Mary, the mother of Jesus.

 

 

Edited by balduin
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Keep in mind Amba Geshen and Amba Mariam used both mountains as part of their physical security design. They were not build to defend a city or palace.

Maybe, you can incorporate Ambas in the mod, by making a fortress sitting on top of a larger earth platform. The fortress itself should have a gate, just like in the photograph and some buildings (churches, monasteries) in it.

Edited by balduin
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@balduin is making some good posts here! Taking the words right out of my mouth. Ethiopian history is dynamic and ever changing, but at the same time, there are clear cultural and material continuities. Aksumite architecture continued to be used, and continued to inspire future generations of architecture. Even Gondar is very noticeably influenced by Aksumite architecture, but because of newer influences, it also has its own unique look. 

Some more close ups of the post-Aksumite, medieval Yemrehana Kristos Church, built in the enduring Aksumite architectural legacy:

North-facade-of-Yemrehanna-Kristos.jpg

fig-2-300x274.jpg   yemrehannna-kristos-cave.jpg

ETH Yemre-2.jpg

 

Compare to an actual Aksumite church, Arba'etu:

Reconstruction of Arba’etu Church  Axum Aksumite copy copy.jpg

 

Here's another pos-Aksumite church, but built in the Aksumite style:

Kidane Mehret post aksumite church The-Church-After-Restoration-Photo-J-F-Breton-2009.png.jpeg

 

See the Church of Our Lady Mary of Zion, in Axum. Originally built during the Aksumite period, it was continually occupied and rebuilt at least twice after destruction events. 

zzzChurchMaryamBiraket.png

Screenshot 2019-03-19 02.34.52.png        Screenshot 2019-03-19 02.33.51.png

Screenshot 2019-03-19 02.35.20.png

 

17th century iteration:

20150619.jpg

 

Another shot of the oldest structure at Debre Damo (Aksumite), probably the oldest continuously occupied structure in Subsaharan Africa:

2560px-ET_Tigray_asv2018-01_img12_Debre_Damo_Monastery.jpg

 

Reconstructure of the church in its original form:

aksum church.jpg

 

Few more shots of Debre Damo:

Debre_Damo.jpg

111.jpg

120ec646a46942afe6a529adbb8dd616.jpg

depositphotos_188629406-stock-photo-debre-damo-monastery-tigray-region.jpg

1920px-ET_Tigray_asv2018-01_img25_Debre_Damo_Monastery.jpg

2560px-ET_Tigray_asv2018-01_img14_Debre_Damo_Monastery.jpg

etiop075.jpg

Screenshot 2019-03-19 02.37.43.png

 

Interior of Aksumite palace:

Screenshot 2019-03-19 02.36.03.png

 

Another interesting church, definitely post-Aksumite, maybe even post-medieval, not sure:

27576893_xxl.jpg

 

Ethiopian round churches are also cool:

Église d'Abyssinie Abyssinian church ethiopia christian history architecture round traditional vernacular african.jpgETHIOPIA abyssinia round church istockphoto-534501529-1024x1024.jpg

 

Some more Tukuls:

Ethiopia-tukul-home-with-distinct-charateristic-of-external-staircases-leading-to-the-upper-level-Lalibela-Amhara-Region-submitted-by-Kerry-Mason5610059605b6e.jpg

6418502591_b9a13dbb2c_b.jpg

ethiopia-amhara-region-holy-city-of-lalibela-traditional-house-or-CR1K3M.jpg

 

More interesting architectural features:

Screen Shot 2019-09-28 at 14.04.15.png

 

 

Screen Shot 2019-09-28 at 14.03.59.png

 

Screen Shot 2019-09-28 at 13.36.01.png

 

I agree with Balduin on the fortress. Using the churches of Lalibela as a references seems very wrong to me. Better take inspiration from actual Ethiopian fortresses like the example from Magdala. 

Here's another "Italian" fortress established at the church of Enda Eyesus, built in the traditional style:

Enda_Yesus_(Church_of_Jesus)_Fort,_Mek'ele,_Ethiopia,_ca._1890.JPG

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Just to be clear, I'm not saying you should use Aksumite references. But that there are post-Aksumite examples of the architectural style in question than can be used, which also means that with some care and reservation, Aksumite elements can fill in some blanks. 

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Great references!

I guess I got confused because I initially wanted to have Gondarine buildings, but I was told that was a "no no", since it didn't fit the timeline. I just assumed that if anything after year 1500 was going to be excluded, then anything before year 1000 would also be excluded. But now I see the point that you guys are making. I did want to have some Aksumite-style buildings for this civ. I'll see how I can incorporate all of the feedback.

Edited by m7600
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4 hours ago, Sundiata said:

Another interesting church, definitely post-Aksumite, maybe even post-medieval, not sure:

27576893_xxl.jpg

I think it is Debre Birhan church, it is from Gondar so post medieval but the style also bears some similarities to the medieval monastery of Debre Abay.

Quote

I agree with Balduin on the fortress. Using the churches of Lalibela as a references seems very wrong to me. Better take inspiration from actual Ethiopian fortresses like the example from Magdala. 

Maybe replace the defence tower as well (Currently based on a chapel); my suggestion would be to either use the Debre Damo bell tower or a more generic stone tower with straw roof.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Maybe replace the defence tower as well (Currently based on a chapel); my suggestion would be to either use the Debre Damo bell tower or a more generic stone tower with straw roof.

The current model of the defense tower is a blend of the Debre Damo bell tower (color/size), the chapel of Bet Danaghel (architecture) and the Gondarian defense tower (size). I think, @m7600 did a really good job on the defense tower.

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