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Thorfinn the Shallow Minded

The Role of Women in 0 A.D.

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5 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

@Genava55 German women.., what sbout our Suebi germans?

http://library.flawlesslogic.com/tacitus.htm

Probably female priest and maybe some female units giving bonus (aura) to motivate neighboring warriors. 

Edit: sorry for the poor choice in the url, the website is not really recommended, it comes from Google search. 

Edited by Genava55
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For the Romans, ethnographic observations were often a by-product of campaigning. All the more is it noteworthy that Roman historians repeatedly delve into descriptions of the warlike nature of Germanic women.

The most common involvement of women in combat seems to have been in the defence of the wagon fort. Germanic tribes used laagers to protect their baggage and sometimes also as a defensive tactic in itself. For example, at the battle of Adrianople (378 AD), the Goths formed up behind a circular ring of wagons.

A Celtic Laager by Nick Speller and Simon Miller, made to be used for Simon's To The Strongest rules - visit his blog to find out more!

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When an army was beaten and the enemy moved against the wagon fort, the women and sometimes even the children entrenched there often put up a fierce fight. Plutarch writes about one of Caesar’s battles against the Helvetians:

“After a long and hard struggle he routed the enemy’s fighting men, but had the most trouble at their rampart of waggons, where not only did the men themselves make a stand and fight, but also their wives and children defended themselves to the death and were cut to pieces with the men.” (Plutarch, Life of Caesar 18)

Scenes like this seem to have happened often, as they can be found in several sources. This of course if not surprising if one considers that surrender would have meant slavery at the best.

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Apart from their role as a last-ditch defence, at least among some tribes women also seemed to have had an active role on the battlefield. Cassius Dio, in his Roman History, describes “women’s bodies in armour” found among the corpses of the “barbarians” after a battle Marcus Aurelius won against the Marcomanni, a Germanic tribe. Marcus Aurelius also had ten women in male armament, who had been captured among the Goths, in his triumphal procession.

Intriguingly, apart from written sources, we also have archaeological evidence for Germanic warrior women. In an overview of bog corpse finds, the archaeologist Alfred Dieck drew attention to several female bodies found with weapons. For example, among eight bodies found in a site in Germany and dated to around 350 BC, three were young women equipped with shield, sword, spear and bow. All of them had died of wounds that indicate combat injuries. Corpses of women dating to the Roman imperial period have been found which were dressed and armed like men and which had been killed by sword thrusts. Dieck relates another find of spear- and sword-carrying women killed in combat from the 3rd century AD to the Goths in Marcus Aurelius’ triumphal procession, providing archaeological corroboration to the historian’s description. All in all, Dieck’s list contains twelve such finds up to the 6th century BC – who knows how many more might turn up?

https://wargamingraft.wordpress.com/2015/10/02/germanic-warrior-women/

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16 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Edit: sorry for the poor choice in the url, the website is not really recommended, it comes from Google search. 

I don't see the problem. There planty of sites with worst info.

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3 hours ago, Obskiuras said:

So we have to create special female units like chanpions or female citizen soldier with a special aura that inspire  men to fight harder

I don't think a very widespread female unit is correct historically. But I see three possibilities that are more or less credible:

  1. A call to arms function to give weapons to female workers.
  2. A female priest with aura both for healing and fighting bonus.
  3. A female East Germanic champion inspired by Aestii and Przeworsk burials, giving fighting bonus.
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by the way the history is cyclic.

Can be give to them give a defensive bonus, in any of defensive structures.

 

 

 new articles used with political missinformation is saying this.

https://www.tor.com/2014/09/02/female-viking-warriors-proof-swords/

 

Sounds more propagando to watch "vikings" in 2014.

Butthe true the study means settlers not warriors.

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Although you can already see by the study’s abstract that it’s dealing with settlers and not specifically warriors (we originally talked about settlers when we first covered the story), Wilson dug deeper and uncovered a very small sample size, as well. What the study did do was look at the remains of viking settlers and find that determining the sex of the remains based on what they were buried with is a faulty method, which is where all the talk of “being buried with their swords” comes from.

How many sets of remains did the study examine? Thirteen. In a comparison with other sites of Norse remains that had sex determined by the objects buried with them (which could have been buried with them for many reasons), a site sexed by the bones instead of burial goods showed a much higher ratio of female settlers at six female sets of bones and seven male. Wilson quotes the study:

Another important implication of the osteological sexing results is that Norse women appear to have been present from the earliest stages of the migratory process, rather than, as the commonly held theory has it, arriving as part of a second wave after the great army had started to settle the homelands it had conquered.

Just to make it clear that we are not going to get carried away by these waves of sensationalism from the press over scientific articles.

 

My point again was promote the cart as defensive unit. I trying to remember some article...

 

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On 6/12/2019 at 2:37 PM, Sundiata said:

Just brainstorming a little

How about expanding the economy just a tad, by using the CC to recruit several economic units:

  • Farmers (60% female, 40% male): used for farming, gathering fruits/berries. Can only build farm, fields and coral. 
  • labourers (100% male): used for mining and logging. Can only build mines, logging camps and CC.  
  • builders (100% male): used for building anything and everything, except for fields. Can't gather.
  • slaves (50% male, 50% female): can be used to boost the output of farmers, labourers and builders, but can't initiate anything themselves and have a very low health. Unlocked in second or third phase (or become available after capturing "gaia settlements") 

For the rest the, CC would have one armed trash unit as a militia for emergencies and a scout (cav with very low health which can double as a hunter). 

Most of the military units can only build military structures and the CC. Citizen soldiers can still be used for mining and logging, and can build mines and logging camps, but work at a lower rate than labourers. 

There is nothing like the healing touch of beautiful young lady. I'd like the healers in-game to be female. They can be recruited from the temple (priestesses) like priests and basically take over the priests' current job. Priests are instead used to boost morale, which was part of their actual function, to make the soldiers believe that their fight was ordained by the gods. This is either achieved by adding morale to the game, or, simply by increasing defense and/or attack stats for units nearby the priests. 

In other cases, women should be civ-specific, like the Mauryan maidens or Scythian Amazons, warrior Xiongnu women and specific heroes already in-game.

In the future, if we can have animations for the buildings, it would be nice to see a bunch of animated women in the market place, buying and selling their produce.

 

my favourite post in the thread so far, i don't know much about history so my opinion might be invalid but this seems right to me, also alter the numbers based on the factions

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On 6/12/2019 at 2:37 PM, Sundiata said:

Just brainstorming a little

How about expanding the economy just a tad, by using the CC to recruit several economic units:

  • Farmers (60% female, 40% male): used for farming, gathering fruits/berries. Can only build farm, fields and coral. 
  • labourers (100% male): used for mining and logging. Can only build mines, logging camps and CC.  
  • builders (100% male): used for building anything and everything, except for fields. Can't gather.
  • slaves (50% male, 50% female): can be used to boost the output of farmers, labourers and builders, but can't initiate anything themselves and have a very low health. Unlocked in second or third phase (or become available after capturing "gaia settlements") 

For the rest the, CC would have one armed trash unit as a militia for emergencies and a scout (cav with very low health which can double as a hunter). 

Most of the military units can only build military structures and the CC. Citizen soldiers can still be used for mining and logging, and can build mines and logging camps, but work at a lower rate than labourers. 

There is nothing like the healing touch of beautiful young lady. I'd like the healers in-game to be female. They can be recruited from the temple (priestesses) like priests and basically take over the priests' current job. Priests are instead used to boost morale, which was part of their actual function, to make the soldiers believe that their fight was ordained by the gods. This is either achieved by adding morale to the game, or, simply by increasing defense and/or attack stats for units nearby the priests. 

In other cases, women should be civ-specific, like the Mauryan maidens or Scythian Amazons, warrior Xiongnu women and specific heroes already in-game.

In the future, if we can have animations for the buildings, it would be nice to see a bunch of animated women in the market place, buying and selling their produce.

 

yea and while we're at it we can also add more economics like Graders, miners, iron smelters, blacksmiths, millers and bakers and rename the game to "The Settlers: 0AD".

The point is that economy takes attention from the player, and the more different economy units and gatherable resources are available the more complicated the economy becomes and the more it distracts from the game itself.

The question is... why.... WHY?! must the most boring aspect of the game be bloated up with even more unfun unit management and click orgies?
Just automate the economy by placing buildings near resource spots. The the according farmers, slaves, builders, millers or watever can do their duty without the player having to worry about having too much of either type of unit.

Edited by DarcReaver
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1 hour ago, DarcReaver said:

yea and while we're at it we can also add more economics like Graders, miners, iron smelters, blacksmiths, millers and bakers and rename the game to "The Settlers: 0AD".

Oooh, great idea! Let's do it ;) 

But, yeah, in hindsight, that suggestion is indeed a little too bloated. I'm still 100% in favor of a dedicated economic unit, simply called "labourer", or whatever. The lack of something that approaches a real economy and and real civilians is sorely missed by a lot of casual players and leaves competitive games with only one real strategy to win: spam the most efficient unit(s) as quickly as possible.

 

1 hour ago, DarcReaver said:

The point is that economy takes attention from the player, and the more different economy units and gatherable resources are available the more complicated the economy becomes and the more it distracts from the game itself.

The question is... why.... WHY?! must the most boring aspect of the game be bloated up with even more unfun unit management and click orgies?

There is a logical flaw in that reasoning, in the sense that a lot of casual players (who constitute the majority) want a more in depth economy. A lot of people think town building and economy management are super fun, and consider the military aspect only as the cherry on the cake. In single player, I often play to build the most beautiful, and realistic looking town, and only start wrecking the AI once I'm satisfied with my little kingdom. But without an economy and the associated hustle and bustle of a town, the game looks a little sterile for casual players, who want to see activity in their towns. We'd even like beautifications like statues, shrines, more unique monuments, even the ability to plant gardens etc... Doesn't even need to be functional. But having the option would greatly enhance the visual pleasure in SP, and enhance immersion. Granted, Delende Est goes a long way towards this, and does offer more replayability for SP, we'd just like to see some of that in vanilla as well (cult statues, villagers and slaves, mercenary camps, farmlands etc.). I understand that's not for everyone, but I'd like to see a little more compromise to facilitate SP. At least DE puts to use those amazing new stables, siege workshops, elephant stables and archery ranges, which would be super appreciated by single players in vanilla (diversifying the look of their towns), but would also please a lot of multiplayers (more interesting strategic choices to make). I'm not saying that the vanilla version of the game should become some sort of economy management game like Banished, but we could have a semblance of an economy, even if it's only visual stuff, like animated buildings, merchants selling wares in the market stalls, blacksmiths hammering at the anvil anytime you research a new tech, some scrawny hunched over NPC slave units scurrying back and forth with supplies and materials, children playing in front of their houses, stuff that doesn't actually affect gameplay but makes the towns look alive, even when your whole army is on the march somewhere.

 

1 hour ago, DarcReaver said:

Just automate the economy by placing buildings near resource spots. The the according farmers, slaves, builders, millers or watever can do their duty without the player having to worry about having too much of either type of unit.

So, I'm not actually opposed to this if it means the towns will look more alive. It just shouldn't be dumbed down to the point of pointlessness. In this scenario building diversity and placement should become even more important, especially with regard to building farms only on suitable soils, logging camps being built in a forest, with their income determined by the number of trees in it's radius, mines and quarries, maybe even fishing huts, and maybe even storage yards to emulate a virtual resource cap (just like you have to build houses to increase your pop cap), with animated NPC suppliers going back and forth between the storage yards and resource and construction sites, just for the visual kick. Just brainstorming here, but it would make the game a lot more visually interesting/engaging, while at the same time eliminating the micro of economic units. It think it would make 0AD a more mature game, less constrained by the AoE legacy. 

Edited by Sundiata
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7 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

 

I've read all of it, but have nothing complex to say but: Yes! Bring Economy ot the game. Even Riots, atacking an enemy whos city is under fire because of constant rioters is even funnier.

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Onto the point that Darcreaver makes, I think there is more validity than most of us give credit to.  If there is going to be micromanagement, it should feel meaningful rather than just necessary.  A lot of the Age of Empires economic decisions unfortunately like that, and I'd say that providing better automation to economy would allow for a much more complex system to exist.  

I'd personally like trade and farming to be better expanded upon.  Farms could gradually eat up the nutrients in soil, decreasing the gathering efficiency and forcing players to have farms planted elsewhere if they want the ground to regain that ability.  Trading shouldn't just be a way to instantly generate resources.  Importing or exporting precious resources or manufactured wares that could provide buffs in addition to setting tariffs could make for a much more immersive experience.  

That all said, slaves are an important addition.  Having non-citizen residents would be cool as well.

 

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On 11/1/2019 at 8:49 AM, Alexandermb said:

I've read all of it, but have nothing complex to say but: Yes! Bring Economy ot the game. Even Riots, atacking an enemy whos city is under fire because of constant rioters is even funnier.

CAESAR II - warning! Don't use headphones.

 

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On 11/1/2019 at 7:36 AM, DarcReaver said:

The question is... why.... WHY?! must the most boring aspect of the game be bloated up with even more unfun unit management and click orgies?
Just automate the economy by placing buildings near resource spots. The the according farmers, slaves, builders, millers or watever can do their duty without the player having to worry about having too much of either type of unit.

said that to Praetorians game (now in GOG in HD), any economic feature.... I waste.

think more SC2 or... more complex game like Stronghold.

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