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Thorfinn the Shallow Minded

The Role of Women in 0 A.D.

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Women in 0 A.D. basically fill the function of villagers in the game, but I don't think that enough consideration has been put into how they function especially for a game that attempts to pay close attention to history.  

First, it is odd to have them as the primary economic unit when slaves by and large filled that role.  This been mentioned before so I'll leave it there.

Next, while there are exceptions such as amongst various Celtic tribes and Sparta, most societies had women restricted to household related duties such as bearing and raising children, and doing other indoor activities at least to my understanding.  This comes to my main point; women shouldn't be available to a faction unless there is good precedent for them having a larger role.  Of course they didn't necessarily go out to chop wood or mine, but that is an RTS abstraction that I think can still exist.  Granted, I am mainly speaking from a general knowledge of women's place in the ancient world from my familiarity with Roman and Athenian societies and at that, my study on the subject has hardly been thorough.  I would appreciate any thoughts on the matter: especially concerning cultures I haven't mentioned.

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That is not the case with nomadic peoples several where matriarchal and even the ones who were not had very flexible sexual roles with woman acting as the primary military force when the men where away on the hunt or war most Mongol woman where very good archers and riders while the Scythian women where both chiefs and shamans of great political power so the classical role for woman really only holds for citified folk.

Enjoy the Choice :)

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Not sure I can agree with the statement that "women shouldn't be available to a faction unless there is good precedent for them having a larger role".  What would be the point of removing the ability to train women from some factions?  Didn't all of these societies indeed have women in them?

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I am in favor of females for religious units, military units among specific cultures (nomads, Mauryan etc.) and as heroes (Boudicca). But as the main "productive" unit, no. Really the game is skipping the most important feature of the ancient times: slavery. Free women were not working as miners or as lumberjacks. Enslaved women were mostly working in shops, in houses and in fields (and in brothels...).

This is sad that women didn't have a more prominent role in history, but it is like that and we cannot change the past (only change the present and the future).

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2 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

I am in favor of females for religious units, military units among specific cultures (nomads, Mauryan etc.) and as heroes (Boudicca). But as the main "productive" unit, no. Really the game is skipping the most important feature of the ancient times: slavery. Free women were not working as miners or as lumberjacks. Enslaved women were mostly working in shops, in houses and in fields (and in brothels...).

This is sad that women didn't have a more prominent role in history, but it is like that and we cannot change the past (only change the present and the future).

yes, we have some in DE. Borg is planning add to his mod.

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5 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

yes, we have some in DE

Yes I know. I tried it. If I remember, they are losing life through time.

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1 minute ago, Genava55 said:

Yes I know. I tried it. If I remember, they are losing life through time.

the last svn-git hub version doesn't this anymore. they losing life if they are upgraded.

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9 hours ago, StopKillingMe said:

Not sure I can agree with the statement that "women shouldn't be available to a faction unless there is good precedent for them having a larger role".  What would be the point of removing the ability to train women from some factions?  Didn't all of these societies indeed have women in them?

I suppose I should clarify.  Currently they seem to represent free women, and in that specific case, I can't really say it makes much sense except for factions in which women had an expanded role.  If female slaves are available, I think that the argument for them doing hard labour is viable.  It doesn't seem very accurate, but there is a point in which 0 A.D. has to separate itself from historical simulators.  

I think that we can work to be more intention, however about accurate depictions.  Perhaps Vestal Virgins could be a trainable healing unit for Rome.  Also it seems that women were the priestesses for Athen's cult of Athena, and a handful Athenian women who were citizens apparently were merchants.

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Just brainstorming a little

How about expanding the economy just a tad, by using the CC to recruit several economic units:

  • Farmers (60% female, 40% male): used for farming, gathering fruits/berries. Can only build farm, fields and coral. 
  • labourers (100% male): used for mining and logging. Can only build mines, logging camps and CC.  
  • builders (100% male): used for building anything and everything, except for fields. Can't gather.
  • slaves (50% male, 50% female): can be used to boost the output of farmers, labourers and builders, but can't initiate anything themselves and have a very low health. Unlocked in second or third phase (or become available after capturing "gaia settlements") 

For the rest the, CC would have one armed trash unit as a militia for emergencies and a scout (cav with very low health which can double as a hunter). 

Most of the military units can only build military structures and the CC. Citizen soldiers can still be used for mining and logging, and can build mines and logging camps, but work at a lower rate than labourers. 

There is nothing like the healing touch of beautiful young lady. I'd like the healers in-game to be female. They can be recruited from the temple (priestesses) like priests and basically take over the priests' current job. Priests are instead used to boost morale, which was part of their actual function, to make the soldiers believe that their fight was ordained by the gods. This is either achieved by adding morale to the game, or, simply by increasing defense and/or attack stats for units nearby the priests. 

In other cases, women should be civ-specific, like the Mauryan maidens or Scythian Amazons, warrior Xiongnu women and specific heroes already in-game.

In the future, if we can have animations for the buildings, it would be nice to see a bunch of animated women in the market place, buying and selling their produce.

 

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On 6/12/2019 at 1:48 AM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Women in 0 A.D. basically fill the function of villagers in the game, but I don't think that enough consideration has been put into how they function especially for a game that attempts to pay close attention to history.  

First, it is odd to have them as the primary economic unit when slaves by and large filled that role.  This been mentioned before so I'll leave it there.

Next, while there are exceptions such as amongst various Celtic tribes and Sparta, most societies had women restricted to household related duties such as bearing and raising children, and doing other indoor activities at least to my understanding.  This comes to my main point; women shouldn't be available to a faction unless there is good precedent for them having a larger role.  Of course they didn't necessarily go out to chop wood or mine, but that is an RTS abstraction that I think can still exist.  Granted, I am mainly speaking from a general knowledge of women's place in the ancient world from my familiarity with Roman and Athenian societies and at that, my study on the subject has hardly been thorough.  I would appreciate any thoughts on the matter: especially concerning cultures I haven't mentioned.

> says that women dont have enough action in game

> suggests replacing women with slaves, making them even more rare

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I said that they should be implemented in a historically informed way; if that makes them rarer, then so be it.  Likewise, I never said that women should be replaced with slaves.  I instead stated that slaves should, for civilisations in which labour was primarily conducted by slaves, be the primary economic unit.  I have otherwise simply pointed out some alternative ways to represent women that seem more informed. 

In these discourses, respect is critical to healthy communication, and while I assure you that I am fallible, I do actually try to make coherent arguments; please look more carefully and criticise valid points.  My apologies if this seems offensive, but I don't appreciate being taken out of context.

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7 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

I said that they should be implemented in a historically informed way; if that makes them rarer, then so be it.  Likewise, I never said that women should be replaced with slaves.  I instead stated that slaves should, for civilisations in which labour was primarily conducted by slaves, be the primary economic unit.  I have otherwise simply pointed out some alternative ways to represent women that seem more informed. 

In these discourses, respect is critical to healthy communication, and while I assure you that I am fallible, I do actually try to make coherent arguments; please look more carefully and criticise valid points.  My apologies if this seems offensive, but I don't appreciate being taken out of context.

he is more younger if you understand what I mean.

he must be careful in his apreciations the next time.

 

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@Thorfinn the Shallow Minded is actually not so shallow-minded here - suggestions I would back:

Training a male surgeon (healer/doctor) in the temple/academy;

Training a number of cheaper female nurses for each surgeon (three per surgeon, then another surgeon has to be created). These nurses act as doubles for the surgeon, and can heal soldiers on the battlefield. If the surgeon dies, the nurses can continue their work until killed, but they still count in the stats and new nurses can only be trained when there is enough capacity = enough surgeons).

Simplifying @Sundiatas slave proposal (I suggest creating slave 'couples' where only the male slave can controlled and assigned tasks - they can do all labour but can't initiate anything themselves and have a very low health and fighting ability. Unlocked in second or third phase. For each male slave, a female slave is created who walks between the houses and the markets, automatically, and cannot be controlled but only killed by enemy forces. In this way they are present and visible in the cities and settlements, around houses where they historically belong.

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15 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

 your  pov are required for celtic tribes.

Women were better considered in Celtic societies but it is mostly about property right, divorce and inheritance. I do not know how it could be included in the game. And even like this, it is still an inequalitarian society.

However, there is a debate about the Druids, Irish mythology saying the women cannot be Druids but the Roman accounts talk about some women as Druids. Some scholars argue that the Romans could have misinterpreted the diversity of the religious class and labeled every priest and priestess as a Druid, other scholars argue that the Irish connection with the La Tène is problematic and that we should not accept anything from the mythology as truths in application everywhere a Celtic language was spoken. For me there is no trouble to take a side in this debate and to portray female Druid.

Finally, there are some burials of rich women and some accounts of ruling women in La Tène and British Iron Age culture. So it could be possible to have some females as nobles or officers, however I do not know which purpose they could serve in the game for the moment. There is no proof of female warrior in the Celtic culture, therefore these nobles were in place for different reasons.

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Just now, Genava55 said:

Women were better considered in Celtic societies but it is mostly about property right, divorce and inheritance. I do not know how it could be included in the game. And even like this, it is still an inequalitarian society.

some abstraction can be considered unique tech.(its planned have a more developed tech tree, more large less generic.)

 

4 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

However, there is a debate about the Druids, Irish mythology saying the women cannot be Druids but the Roman accounts talk about some women as Druids. Some scholars argue that the Romans could have misinterpreted the diversity of the religious class and labeled every priest and priestess as a Druid, other scholars argue that the Irish connection with the La Tène is problematic and that we should not accept anything from the mythology as truths in application everywhere a Celtic language was spoken. For me there is no trouble to take a side in this debate and to portray female Druid.

developing unique religions / belief and trait based in cultural "meaning" like folkloric conceptions. for each prominent god. 

for examplebonus from farming to cult from Ceres or may be Sucellos.

Temples should be built reactively: if public order decreases, you build the temple - Building types | Strategic map - Strategic map - Total War: Rome II Game Guide

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On 6/12/2019 at 3:31 AM, Loki1950 said:

That is not the case with nomadic peoples several where matriarchal

Goddarn Johann Jakob Bachofen!

More egalitarian societies have existed (although with sexual division of work) including female warriors inside of them, but there's been never a matriarchy as an opposed patriarchy where the women rule the men by symbolic and direct violence. We've matrifocal, matrilineal and matriocal societies: some of them are more egalitarian, some don't.

Edited by av93
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46 minutes ago, av93 said:

Goddarn Johann Jakob Bachofen!

:lmao:

I feel like we've been here before :P Interesting nuance though. 

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There is an old proverb I can across a while ago "The hen knows when the sun rises but she lets the rooster announce it" it was offered as being African in origin in one of the "Ring of Fire" series.

Enjoy the Choice :)   

Edited by Loki1950
changed a word that got censored

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The only real reason women are the primary economic unit is the Gameplay... pure Gameplay: It's easier to differentiate them from the Citizen Soldiers, and that they "inspire men to work harder".

It's one area that history wasn't taken into account (even if I will try to argue that we have Females Healing Units within the Roman Faction).

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