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Civ: Germans (Suebians and Goths)

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7 hours ago, Genava55 said:

There is also evidence in Tacitus account for pastoralist nomadism in their societies.

Goths could have the no- territory nomadic gameplay.

Suebians could have weak buildings and ox carts like nomads but  still have territory (Early germanics did not migrate as far, Tacitus says tribes where proud of how much empty land surrounded their settlements.) .

Edited by Ultimate Aurelian

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23 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Goths could have the no- territory nomadic gameplay.

Suebians could have weak buildings and ox carts like nomads but  still have territory (Early germanics did not migrate as far, Tacitus says tribes where proud of how much empty land surrounded their settlements.) .

Maybe I am confusing with Caesar account in book 6:
 

Quote

They do not pay much attention to agriculture, and a large portion of their food consists in milk, cheese, and flesh; nor has any one a fixed quantity of land or his own individual limits; but the magistrates and the leading men each year apportion to the tribes and families, who have united together, as much land as, and in the place in which, they think proper, and the year after compel them to remove elsewhere. For this enactment they advance many reasons - lest seduced by long-continued custom, they may exchange their ardor in the waging of war for agriculture; lest they may be anxious to acquire extensive estates, and the more powerful drive the weaker from their possessions; lest they construct their houses with too great a desire to avoid cold and heat; lest the desire of wealth spring up, from which cause divisions and discords arise; and that they may keep the common people in a contented state of mind, when each sees his own means placed on an equality with [those of] the most powerful.

It is the greatest glory to the several states to have as wide deserts as possible around them, their frontiers having been laid waste. They consider this the real evidence of their prowess, that their neighbors shall be driven out of their lands and abandon them, and that no one dare settle near them; at the same time they think that they shall be on that account the more secure, because they have removed the apprehension of a sudden incursion. When a state either repels war waged against it, or wages it against another, magistrates are chosen to preside over that war with such authority, that they have power of life and death. In peace there is no common magistrate, but the chiefs of provinces and cantons administer justice and determine controversies among their own people. Robberies which are committed beyond the boundaries of each state bear no infamy, and they avow that these are committed for the purpose of disciplining their youth and of preventing sloth. And when any of their chiefs has said in an assembly "that he will be their leader, let those who are willing to follow, give in their names;" they who approve of both the enterprise and the man arise and promise their assistance and are applauded by the people; such of them as have not followed him are accounted in the number of deserters and traitors, and confidence in all matters is afterward refused them. To injure guests they regard as impious; they defend from wrong those who have come to them for any purpose whatever, and esteem them inviolable; to them the houses of all are open and maintenance is freely supplied.

Probably a reference to transhumance.

 

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@Genava55 Is it possible for them to use torcs ?

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They are particularly delighted by gifts from neighbouring tribes, which are sent not only by individuals but also by the state, such as choice steeds, heavy armour, trappings, and neckchains.

The original Latin version uses the term '' phalerae torquesque''.

Tacitus also say Germanic women did not cover arms or breasts and wore purple.

Quote

The women have the same dress as the men, except that they generally wrap themselves in linen garments, which they embroider with purple, and do not lengthen out the upper part of their clothing into sleeves. The upper and lower arm is thus bare, and the nearest part of the bosom is also exposed

Not sure if that is true; perhaps he was basing his description on ceremonial costume  ?

 

Edited by Ultimate Aurelian

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3 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Is it possible for them to use torcs ?

Torcs weren't in use by Germans and weren't found in Germanic context. It is possible they would have been accepted as a gift however the torcs have no meaning for them.

Maybe it is instead the Kronenhalsringen? Or even the Roman phalerae with smaller torcs?

4 hours ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Not sure if that is true; perhaps he was basing his description on ceremonial costume  ?

Good question. Generally the few representation of Germanic women didn't represent their costume like this. In the case of the Portonaccio sarcophagus, a woman shows her breast only because her sleeve/strap is down.

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Sorry to intrude here, but I just wanted to say that purple was a really expensive color before the Modern Era. They had to get the purple pigments from sea snails. I don't recall the exact numbers, but they had to crush hundreds of those snails to get just a tiny amount of pigments. Only royalty could afford purple clothes.

Edited by m7600
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1 hour ago, m7600 said:

Sorry to intrude here, but I just wanted to say that purple was a really expensive color before the Modern Era. They had to get the purple pigments from sea snails. I don't recall the exact numbers, but they had to crush hundreds of those snails to get just a tiny amount of pigments. Only royalty could afford purple clothes.

Perhaps the author meant a dark red shade ?

Latin colors names can be a bit confusing (Like the discussion on Augustus' hair color), it seems that the snails could also produce a variety red or blue hues not just purple.

This is a depiction of a festival with men wearing the toga praetexta; described by ancient authors as having a purple stripe (Looks like red for modern eyes):

Compitalia_fresco.jpg

Edited by Ultimate Aurelian
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1 hour ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Perhaps the author meant a dark red shade ?

Could be. It was known as Tyrian purple or Phoenician Red. The Greek name was πορφύρα transliterated as porphúra, the latin name is purpura. 
On the other hand, it's possible that our knowledge of pigment production in Antiquity is incomplete. Perhaps the "barbarians" knew a way of producing purple using other materials, like flowers.

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No you are right @m7600 a stable purple was not done until the 1860's by German industrial chemists no combination of dye and mordant worked for long apart from the aforementioned Tyrian sea snails,though there is some evidence of a Mayan purple also a sea snail dye.

Enjoy the Choice :)

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1 hour ago, m7600 said:

Could be. It was known as Tyrian purple or Phoenician Red. The Greek name was πορφύρα transliterated as porphúra, the latin name is purpura. 
On the other hand, it's possible that our knowledge of pigment production in Antiquity is incomplete. Perhaps the "barbarians" knew a way of producing purple using other materials, like flowers.

Perhaps there were other pigments in a shade closer to red or blue, considered less valuable due to being less bright and fading quicker.

BTW not saying it is a accurate game, but i guess that's why RTW gave the Germans that weird pink color (When i first saw that i was like ''What, did they run out of colors ?).

Edited by Ultimate Aurelian

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9 minutes ago, Loki1950 said:

there is some evidence of a Mayan purple also a sea snail dye

: O

I didn't know that about the Mayans. Interesting.

7 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Also not saying it is a accurate game

I agree, all games have to sacrifice a little bit of realism in order to work, even a very accurate one like 0 AD. (Here one could insert the old joke about Age of Empires 1, that the villagers harvested meat from bushes. I actually like that 0 AD kept this tradition, it brings back good memories of AoE 1)

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9 hours ago, m7600 said:

Sorry to intrude here, but I just wanted to say that purple was a really expensive color before the Modern Era. They had to get the purple pigments from sea snails. I don't recall the exact numbers, but they had to crush hundreds of those snails to get just a tiny amount of pigments. Only royalty could afford purple clothes.

True but ancient authors tell us that people faked Tyrian purple with indigo, and probably also by mixing different pigment.

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Documentary mostly giving evidences from the Alemanni

Small documentary about the Frankish warrior during the 5th century AD:

On 4/29/2020 at 1:59 AM, Genava55 said:

Some footage from the place:

 

Edited by Genava55
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5 hours ago, Obskiuras said:

"First page" of what? the post?

First page of the thread. Of the current topic.

On 5/30/2019 at 10:20 PM, Genava55 said:

The Lombards: The Ancient Longobards - Neil Christie

The Lombards, also known as the Longobards, were a Germanic tribe whose fabled origins lay in the barbarian realm of Scandinavia. After centuries of obscurity during the long period of Roman domination in Europe, the Lombards began a concerted migration south-eastwards, coming to prominence immediately after the fall of Rome.

Pushing across the Danube to occupy Hungary, the tribe emerged as a powerful protagonist in the former heartland of the Empire in the early sixth century AD. The Lombards subsequently invaded Italy in AD 568-569, where they successfully countered the Byzantines and established a kingdom based on the fertile north Italian plains. This endured for more than two centuries before its conquest by Charlemagne, and even after this defeat, a Lombard state continued to exist in southern Italy until the eleventh century.

In this book, the author combines many sources, archaeological and historical, to offer a fresh and vividly detailed picture of Lombard society - its people, settlements, material and spiritual culture - and its evolution from martial 'barbarian' tribe to complex urbanized state.  

 

The Alamanni and Rome 213-496 - John F. Drinkwater

The Alamanni and Rome focuses upon the end of the Roman Empire. From the third century AD, barbarians attacked and then overran the west. Some--Goths, Franks, Saxons--are well known, others less so. The latter include the Alamanni, despite the fact that their name is found in the French (''Allemagne'') and Spanish (''Alemania'') for ''Germany.'' This pioneering study, the first in English, uses new historical and archaeological findings to reconstruct the origins of the Alamanni, their settlements, their politics, and their society, and to establish the nature of their relationship with Rome. John Drinkwater discovers the cause of their modern elusiveness in their high level of dependence on the Empire. Far from being dangerous invaders, they were often the prey of emperors intent on acquiring military reputations. When much of the western Empire fell to the Franks, so did the Alamanni, without ever having produced their own ''successor kingdom.''  

 

Edit:

Варвары. Древние германцы: быт, религия, культура

Малькольм ТоддВарвары. Древние германцы. Быт, религия, культура Everyday Life of the Barbarians: Goths, Franks, & Vandals От издателяАвтор этой книги попытался реконструировать социальную структуру и каждодневную жизнь варваров на основе обобщающих выводов археологов, наблюдений искусствоведов и лингвистов. Рассматривается промежуток времени от II в. до н.э., когда цивилизованные народы впервые обратили внимание на варваров, до периода Великого Переселения народов IV-VI веков н.э.

Everyday Life of the Barbarians: Goths, Franks and Vandals

With drawings by Eva Wilson.

The "Barbarians" of the classical world - especially the Goths, Franks and Vandals - have been traditionally dismissed as savage hordes who sacked Rome and destroyed her Empire. It is only the discoveries of modern archaeology that have established a true picture of these versatile Germanic tribes who originally inhabited north-west Europe beyond the frontiers of the Roman Empire and who later penetrated every corner of Europe.

Like the Celts, these tribes excelled in the arts of war - but warfare was far from being the whole of their life. They delighted in feasting, music, dancing and gaming. The tribes were organised in a rigorous social hierarchy and they practised a remarkably advanced system of agriculture. Their houses and furniture were simple but they took a particular pride in personal decoration: the surviving artifacts - especially ornamental metalwork - show a magnificent tradition of craftsmanship.

Trade contacts, too, reveal a lively commerce with the Roman provinces and with their nomadic neighbours.
This vivid and rounded portrait of the daily life of Rome's northern neighbours is a fascinating addition to the Publishers' Everyday Life series and a valuable complementary study to the volume on "Ancient Rome".

Malcolm Todd, who is Lecturer in Archaeology at the University of Nottingham, has made use of his own research, and the illustrations - almost 100 in all - include a great deal of unfamiliar material.

The Early Germans by Malcolm Todd

The growing number of volumes in the "Peoples of Europe" series are generally quite useful to students of early medieval history; at less than 300 pages, they do well as surveys. This one, unfortunately, is one of the less readable efforts. Todd is interested in the Germanic tribes and their migrations from the early Roman Empire up to about 700 A.D., but he wanders from a chronological coverage of all the multitude of Germanic peoples (who never thought of themselves as "Germans" in the first place), to a topical one (chapters on economy and agriculture, social institutions, burial practices, trade and diplomacy, art and technology, etc), to a geographical survey divided into sections on Goths, Vandals, Franks, Burgundians, Gepids, Lombards, and (oddly) Scandinavians. It's a confusing book to read, with various groups appearing (naturally) in each other's chapters. Todd also mentions in passing specialized information or rival interpretations of the sources that he apparently assumes everyone knows -- which is a bad assumption in a survey of this kind. While there's useful stuff here, I would not suggest this as a first resource for someone new to the field. Instead, I would recommend the separate books in this series by James on the Franks, Heather on the Goths, and Christie on the Lombards -- and Heather's latest, _The Fall of the Roman Empire_ (2006), over all of them.

Goths in the Fourth Century

This volume brings together many important historical texts, the majority of them (speeches of Themistius, the Passion of St Saba, and evidence relating to the life and work of Ulfila) not previously available in English translation. "...a compact and exciting do-it-yourself kit for the student of Gothic history... outstanding."—Bryn Mawr Classical Review

 

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