Are there balancing changes planned for A24?

[borg-]

Just now, StopKillingMe said:

So yet again, you've decided your God.  To WFG, please do not incorporate this mod into the next Alpha, thank you.

I think you're blind, this is a MOD, I'm not asking that this be implemented in the original game, it's the people who asked for it on the topic.

I do not care if it's going to be implemented or not.

[Feldfeld]

3 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

So yet again, you've decided your God.  To WFG, please do not incorporate this mod into the next Alpha, thank you.

But what you're playing right now is the system of another God which has been tweaked a bit as well.

[borg-]

1 minute ago, Feldfeld said:

But what you're playing right now is the system of another God which has been tweaked a bit as well.

Let's not feed the troll haha

He can not do better, so he's angry.

[StopKillingMe]

1 minute ago, Feldfeld said:

But what you're playing right now is the system of another God which has been tweaked a bit as well.

Umm no, it was developed by a team.

[StopKillingMe]

6 minutes ago, borg- said:

Let's not feed the troll haha

He can not do better, so he's angry.

I rest my case, you are driven by ego.  Which probably explains why you don't want to help improve vanilla...I'm not trolling, I am offering up my opinion that incorporating your mod into the next Alpha is not a good idea.  It got suggested here and I'm making sure that my opinion on that is being noted.  If you want to now act like a child and try to villify me here by labelling me a troll, it only proves the point that for you this is about your ego, not the future of this game.

Edited May 30, 2019 by StopKillingMe

[Feldfeld]

8 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

Umm no, it was developed by a team.

And does everyone in the team care about the balance ? No, as far as i know, scythetwirler took care of the balance for some years/alpha, the fact that he was in the developping team simply enabled enabled the other devs to trust him and that fact made sure that the game wasn't broken afterwards. So he can commit his thing with trust, it doesn't mean that it was heavily debated by the dev team.
And the balance before scythetwirler took care of it were probably made by another single person, doesn't mean so much anyway.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Feldfeld

[Stan`]

Actually the idea of trying to incorporate parts of the mod into the main game was suggested by WFG team members.

@StopKillingMe Would you mind elaborating on what you dislike about @borg- mod in a constructive fashion ?

[borg-]

2 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

I rest my case, you are driven by ego.  Which probably explains why you don't want to help improve vanilla...I'm not trolling, I am offering up my opinion that incorporating your mod into the next Alpha is not a good idea.  It got suggested here and I'm making sure that my opinion on that is being noted.  If you want to now act like a child and try to villify me here by labelling me a troll, it only proves the point that for you this is about your ego, not the future of this game.

Again, he said nothing useful.

 

[StopKillingMe]

Just now, Feldfeld said:

And does everyone in the team cares about the balance ? No, as far as i know, scythetwirler took care of the balance for some years/alpha, the fact that he was in the developping team simply enabled enabled the other devs to trust him and that fact made sure that the game wasn't broken afterwards. So he can commit his thing with trust, it doesn't mean that it was heavily debated by the dev team.
And the balance before scythetwirler took care of it were probably made by another single person, doesn't mean so much anyway.

You know what, you guys can badmouth the actual guys that did the heavy lifting all you want, I'm just making sure the WFG team knows that at least one person is loyal to the process, and will remain loyal.  Just say no to mods!

2 minutes ago, Stan` said:

Actually the idea of trying to incorporate parts of the mod into the main game was suggested by WFG team members.

@StopKillingMe Would you mind elaborating on what you dislike about @borg- mod in a constructive fashion ?

I already have.

[Hannibal_Barca]

borg please rejoin the game

we are waiting... paused

[Feldfeld]

1 minute ago, StopKillingMe said:

You know what, you guys can badmouth the actual guys that did the heavy lifting all you want, I'm just making sure the WFG team knows that at least one person is loyal to the process, and will remain loyal.  Just say no to mods!

I did not see any badmouthing here.

[Stan`]

Can't hardly say no to mods, they are the reason I'm still here and didn't quit years ago  

[StopKillingMe]

25 minutes ago, Feldfeld said:

I did not see any badmouthing here.

But I'm now a troll, remember?  My point remains, game play balance and game features are two different things and should be implemented separately.

 

30 minutes ago, borg- said:

Again, he said nothing useful.

 

Translation:. Your opinion doesn't matter.

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 hours ago, StopKillingMe said:

the only thing that needs to be done is to nerve the Gauls/Britons - 

there are many others things to do. to make this works well. 

• capturing balance or changes in the way you capturing certain buildings.
• cavalry melee is almost useless.
• the ram are little op.
• improving difference between units , classes. ranks, heroes...
• naval warfare still as started many years ago.
• development more technologies. even related to capture, because was one of big feature many years ago.
• team make an early good balance (A 6- A 11) , but at some point becomes  hardcounters around alpha XV and replaced for some very soft counters.

 

2 hours ago, StopKillingMe said:

Umm no, it was developed by a team.

no same members no same opinions between them, the actual system is broken thats why i prefer Delenda Est, is more related to original team.

 

2 hours ago, StopKillingMe said:

But I'm now a troll, remember?  My point remains, game play balance and game features are two different things and should be implemented separately.

please try to don't look angry.

2 hours ago, StopKillingMe said:

I rest my case, you are driven by ego.  Which probably explains why you don't want to help improve vanilla...I'm not trolling, I am offering up my opinion that incorporating your mod into the next Alpha is not a good idea.  It got suggested here and I'm making sure that my opinion on that is being noted.  If you want to now act like a child and try to villify me here by labelling me a troll, it only proves the point that for you this is about your ego, not the future of this game.

you are giving he the reason. many of your points are very empty. no real argument. (for example the future of the game).

your opinion is noted but having a reverse effect. now I want test the mod.

 

[Sundiata]

We just need some serious and organized playtesting by devs, pro-players and community members alike, over a period of a few months at least... Then small or big adjustments can be made as we go. 

I don't think anyone is arguing for blindly incorporating the entire mod just like that. Of course it needs to be scrutinized (as a historical enthusiast for example, I was a little unsure how I felt about flaming arrows, which I read somewhere). But as has been pointed out several times already, it's difficult to assess the quality of the changes if you don't test the whole shebang, as it are all interdependent changes, which is a really good sign actually... It means we'll have a more integrated game. 

@borg- don't let the few individuals get to you. If the mod was really that well received, which is was, there's value in adapting it, at least in part, to vanilla. I for one would appreciate a detailed rundown of all the changes and why. It would make it easier to discuss. You've clearly done a lot of work, but aiding the devs by creating individual patches for everything seems to be what they need, so please help them with this, as you know your mod better than anyone. That doesn't mean that the patches need to be tested individually for their effect on the balance of the game. Just keeping it "overviewable" and easily adjustable. 

For the critics: how hard is it to point out exactly, or just outline what your problems with the mod are? The current balance and meta are bad for competitive play. Someone is doing something about it. Help the person instead breaking him down.  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, StopKillingMe said:

Just say no to mods!

Tell that to the WFG devs. They spent countless hours making this game moddable. Actually, you would need to go all the way back and tell that to the founder.

(borg has done enough already. Why assume it is his sole responsibility to implement this into vanilla? He have made it clear. The main motive was providing his best take on what the game could be. And clearly, the goal had been achieved. People enjoy it.)

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Sundiata I was convinced was personal (attack) those previous posts.  this guy only focus in attack a single person ( @borg- )  with some scarce knowledge. "Let us speak without knowing".

[StopKillingMe]

6 minutes ago, (-_-) said:

Tell that to the WFG devs. They spent countless hours making this game moddable. Actually, you would need to go all the way back and tell that to the founder.

(borg has done enough already. Why assume it is his sole responsibility to implement this into vanilla? He have made it clear. The main motive was providing his best take on what the game could be. And clearly, the goal had been achieved. People enjoy it.)

I'm going to continue to play vanilla in the game lobby.  Mods are fine, but incorporating any of them without due diligence into vanilla I am totally against.  Is he going to rewrite all the documentation if his new counter system gets in?  The problem remains, the pace of his changes are too fast with no one elses input.  There needs to be a measured approach.

[Guest]

Borg has no authority on the final say. He has as much power to change things as you do. Although, seeing how this thread is playing out, his words might be regarded as much more valuable.

[Lion.Kanzen]

13 minutes ago, StopKillingMe said:

I'm going to continue to play vanilla in the game lobby.  Mods are fine, but incorporating any of them without due diligence into vanilla I am totally against.  Is he going to rewrite all the documentation if his new counter system gets in?  The problem remains, the pace of his changes are too fast with no one elses input. 

what is your (personal) problem with him?

Quote

There needs to be a measured approach.

yes but be can't take to someone who's biased.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[thankforpie]

3 hours ago, Feldfeld said:

But what you're playing right now is the system of another God which has been tweaked a bit as well.

true. borg mod adds a lot of variety, and maybe even it will take longer to learn than current 0ad

IMO borg mods makes 0ad as interesting as 0ad can get.

without borg mod, it will be just slinger-fest/gaul-fest/briton-fest for next months/years

[StopKillingMe]

37 minutes ago, (-_-) said:

Borg has no authority on the final say. He has as much power to change things as you do. Although, seeing how this thread is playing out, his words might be regarded as much more valuable.

Keep trying to make this personal, I won't bite.

[borg-]

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

We just need some serious and organized playtesting by devs, pro-players and community members alike, over a period of a few months at least... Then small or big adjustments can be made as we go. 

I don't think anyone is arguing for blindly incorporating the entire mod just like that. Of course it needs to be scrutinized (as a historical enthusiast for example, I was a little unsure how I felt about flaming arrows, which I read somewhere). But as has been pointed out several times already, it's difficult to assess the quality of the changes if you don't test the whole shebang, as it are all interdependent changes, which is a really good sign actually... It means we'll have a more integrated game. 

@borg- don't let the few individuals get to you. If the mod was really that well received, which is was, there's value in adapting it, at least in part, to vanilla. I for one would appreciate a detailed rundown of all the changes and why. It would make it easier to discuss. You've clearly done a lot of work, but aiding the devs by creating individual patches for everything seems to be what they need, so please help them with this, as you know your mod better than anyone. That doesn't mean that the patches need to be tested individually for their effect on the balance of the game. Just keeping it "overviewable" and easily adjustable. 

For the critics: how hard is it to point out exactly, or just outline what your problems with the mod are? The current balance and meta are bad for competitive play. Someone is doing something about it. Help the person instead breaking him down.  

I would love to have someone with advanced historical knowledge to help me in this, and also someone with a good English to review some things.

Even though I have done everything or almost everything based on historical data, it would still be very important.

[StopKillingMe]

4 hours ago, borg- said:

Honestly I will not do that. If the developers and leaders some day want to implement the mod, fine, I'll be happy, otherwise I'll be happy to know that I've done a good job.
I'm not going to make a document explaining why people should like my mod and implement this to the original game.
I'm particularly happy with the mod and I'm even happier to know that the people who play the mod are loving it.
The mod has a lot of donwloads and followers (mod.io), videos on youtube etc ... so thats all I need.

This right here says it all...I urge people in a leadership position at WFG to reject this attitude and implement balance changes carefully and slowly.

Edited May 30, 2019 by StopKillingMe

[borg-]

1 hour ago, StopKillingMe said:

I'm going to continue to play vanilla in the game lobby.  Mods are fine, but incorporating any of them without due diligence into vanilla I am totally against.  Is he going to rewrite all the documentation if his new counter system gets in?  The problem remains, the pace of his changes are too fast with no one elses input.  There needs to be a measured approach.

The changes in the mod are quick because it is not finished yet, the new version will be the final one (maybe some later with minor corrections). Version 1.0.5 will be the version that can be implemented to vanilla. If this is accepted then I'll start working to implement this to svn.