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Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

Standardize universal spelling and pronounciation for Ancient Greek!

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@wowgetoffyourcellphone remind me that we need to standardize universal spelling for Ancient Greek.

It came up again in a MOD discussion, and of course is omnipresent. (Piraeus = Peiraieus)

As I move now to begin recordings - I just moved into a new apartment - we need to standardize.

 

This is with danger of opening a beehive ( @LordGood received my recording of Plato upon the 1st of March, it is today 8 weeks hence and no one has submitted a single recording as predicted )

 

I value everyone's contribution, and for me what counts is the honest desire to help, and all contributors deserve thanks!

But there is some fixing which needs to be done here, and a decision needs to be made. I move to propose standardization along the following lines:

 

 

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Proposal:
Transcription will be standardized to 350 B.C. Attic. 
The classical Greek of the 4th century. Koine is based on high-style Attic and it made tradition, to become the central source of influence for all learned men in the hellenistic age.

Transcription (unit/building name tags etc.) and pronounciation standardization:

Ββ - beta, as in "Bike!" translit.: B
Γγ - gamma, as in "Greek"  --- two ΓΓ creates "ng" sound, hence ΑΓΓΕΛΟΙ ("angeloi", messengers/angels). See table below. translit.: G/NG
Εε - epsilon, as in German "sehr" translit.: E
Ζζ - dzeta/zdeta, either pronounced "ds" or "sd"! translit.: Z
Ηη - heta, as in "hell" translit.: Ê
Θθ - theta, as in "tax" translit.: TH
Ξξ - ksi, as in "axis" translit.: X
Οο - omikron, as in German "Sohn" translit.: O
Ππ - pi, as b in english "blister" translit.: P
Ρρ - rho, rolled as in Italian "Roma" translit.: RH
Ττ - tau, as in "astonished" translit.: T
Υυ - ypsilon, as in German "für" translit.: Y
Φφ - phi, as in "please" translit.: PH
Χχ -  chi, as c in "casting" translit.: CH
Ψψ - psi, as in "epilepsytranslit.: PS
Ωω - omega, either o in "come" or as o in protracted "sloooooow" translit.: Ô
The letter "U" did not exist. The Greeks wrote ΟΥ, sounding as in "moon" (ΜΟΥΝ!). translit.: OU

ONLY CAPITAL LETTERS. (Antiquity knew no minuscules, they are from the 9th/10th century A.D. )
Later variant letter symbols such as ω for Ω-omega, and C for Σ-sigma are to be avoided.
The sound "F" did not exist at all, nor did the "th" of "the". If you hear that sound in the game, sound the alarm bell here in the thread and we will fix it!
 

If a ῾ is identified in the top-left-corner of a letter, that letter is prefixed with letter 'h' in transcription. Hence:

 ἥρως = hêrôs
Ἅιδης = Haidês

All other diacritics are not represented, for simplification. There is no IOTA SUBSCRIPT (IOTA IS ALWAYS WRITTEN OUT).


IPA is not used, it does not convey polytone classical Greek correctly.

ΓΓ = ng
ΓΚ = ngk
ΓΧ = ngkh
ΓΞ = nx
ΓΜ = gm
ΓΝ =gn

Proposal for the purposes of all naming discussions on this forum from now on:

Greek Transliteration and Original according to the above scheme are always to be given separated by a / :
(No regional French/German/English/etc. forms - hence:)

Themistoklês/ΘΕΜΙΣΤΟΚΛΗΣ
Thémistocle
Temistocle
Themistocles
Themistokles

Alexandros ho megas/ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ Ο ΜΕΓΑΣ
Alexandre
Alessandro
Alexander

 

Latin and Greek Problem:

Greek Kaisar/ΚΑΙΣΑΡ (Kaisar) is pronounced just like Latin Caesar.
But our sources in all ages are mixing up Latin and Greek all the time, we need a standard.

The rule is that if a city or settlement was founded by Romans in its important manifestation, then the Latin form is preferred.
If a city or settlement was founded by Greeks, then the Greek from is preferred.

Piraeus = Peiraieus/ΠΕΙΡΑΙΕΥΣ, GREEK (capital founded by Themistokles/ΘΕΜΙΣΤΟΚΛΗΣ)
Kaisareia/ΚΑΙΣΑΡΕΙΑ= CAESAREA MARITIMA, LATIN (formerly phoenician tradepost but refounded as the Roman provincial capital)

Edited by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates
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55 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

It came up again in a MOD discussion, and of course is omnipresent. (Piraeus = Peiraieus)

 

I didn't transliterate anything, I simply used the spelling used in hundreds of publications and articles. Whether that's not scholarly enough or that the traditional layman's spelling is wrong in some way, that's up to you to decide. I am not anal about whether a K or a C is used, I just want to make a fun game. I do know it matters to other people though, like yourself, so I don't begrudge that. Just know I can be of no help in this regard and I'm not even 0 A.D.'s designer or even on the official team in any way, so I can make no decisions here. If it was up to me, I'd have a toggle option to turn off <SpecificName> in the tooltips and UI, rendering the discussion irrelevant to me. :)

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
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@wowgetoffyourcellphone It is an omnipresent problem, you are not doing it wrong, we are all doing it wrong, because we have no standard.
I am proposing one.

Everyone will thank us for doing this. Especially if we want to have the game accurate and consistent, for before I put in dozens of hours of work I want to know that there is at least some order to the transliteration madness? It can be a first step for many young minds into the real ancient world: Let us make it a consistent entry, to the best of our ability.

I even commit right here and now to make a "language overview campaign" - AoE2 campaign style.

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byzantines.thumb.jpg.021b55660e3239ffd8210ccaf9f4317a.jpg 

Edited by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates
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Just now, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone It is an omnipresent problem, you are not doing it wrong, we are all doing it wrong, because we have no standard.
I am proposing one.

Groovy. You need to convince WFG to use your standard. Once that's done, then you can make some patches orienting the Greek/Latin in the game to this standard. (y) 

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