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wackyserious

===[COMMITTED]=== Roman Infantry (New texture)

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Italian linothorax for the Roman allied skirmisher cavalry and the Oscan hoplites (named samnite_infantry_spearman in Altas) Oscan hoplites are the same with the popular Campanian hoplites in miniatue models and Total war mods right?

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29 minutes ago, wackyserious said:

I also do not know, that was the default

The game didn't have that unit a couple of years ago.

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@Stan` 

I need a consensus to research a more properly model (the shield is the only inconvenient).

Replace with Oscan-Italic Socii shield like Parma equestris and Clipeus.

Spoiler

Early republic era.

Quote

I've read authors concluding that the Italians and Italian-Greeks made greater use of shielded cavalry a century or so before the mainland Greeks did. The theory goes the mainlanders in Hellas got the idea either by the Celtic invasion in the 280s (hence round spindle shields) or they got the inspiration from Phyrrus of Epirus or Alexander of Epirus' invasions of Italy. Both theories have merits. It's just a mistake to assume that Italian cavalry had shields for far longer - it may have just been a few decades, a half century. When you actually look at the information the depiction seems to be that basically no cavalry at the start of the 4th century in Italy except Celts and Taras are depicted with shields. Taras has coinage depicting shielded cavalry from about 420BC onwards - more coin depictions (and also more larger shield depictions) as the century goes on. Depictions by Oscan artists in Paestum and neighboring areas also has no shielded cavalry until about mid century when they appear chiefly in Apulia and Campania.
There are, however, depictions of cavalry with shields:
Etruscan 540-520 BC Terracotta: https://www.agefotostock.com/age/en/...d/DAE-A2000763 - They seem to be using their weapons in combat, spears or javelins or possibly even an axe on the front guy. Yet they also are riding ride next to an unhelmeted, unshielded cavalrymen - likely to be a groom. Various authors suggest this is a depiction of mounted hoplites riding to battle to dismount and fight at the destination.
Etruscan 550-540 BC Terracotta: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dandiffendale/15908859072 Depicting the same gallopping scene, with unhelmeted riders. Again, pairs of them, one with shield and spear the other seems not to have one?
While an early 4th century Stele depicts an Etruscan with linothorax, sword and no helmet and no shield fighting a naked celt on foot.

I like the look of those aspised cavalry, but I can't shake the arguments they are just mounted infantry. Coupled with other evidence my proposal will be that early cavalry for most everyone is unshielded. Taras gets shields because of the coin evidence, Celts get shields because of the Etruscan relief although the Hallstatt scabbard would suggest no shields for them. Illyrians have battlefield depiction(s?) with a cavalry bearing shield. Iberian mercenaries for Carthage will because I don't think you can tech lock mercenaries, same with Numidians. All those unshielded cavalry will get a mid-late tech that unlocks a shielded version. We're not looking for now to do big scripts for ROTR so I don't think a 'natural' reform will be possible.

This does have the bad news that because of the way tech locking works auxilia/local cavalry and mercenaries will always be unshielded. Or always shielded. We'd have to make a variant for every single culture otherwise and that'd rapidly multiply to absurd leves (If there's 7 AOR cavalry and 7 or so factions that's 41 copies of each cavalry unit). I think it'll be a case by case decision there as to which is which. There's always a chance DEI will elect to favor a simplier "4th century at large" theme instead of depicting the transition, in which case everyone who'd have a shield as cavalry starts with it.. Or perhaps non Tarantine light cavalry always lack it, but all kinds of melee cavalry have it. Remains to be seen.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?787967-Divide-et-Impera-Rise-of-the-Republic-Release!/page2

NyWuDQP.jpg

Resultado de imagen para paestum art cavalry

Edited by Lion.Kanzen
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Unshielded cavalrymen are often Italics "returning homes" or carrying their textile standard in the other hand, so maybe an artistic canon.

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Keep in mind horses do not automatically imply cavalry. Mounted infantry (i.e. people who rode to battle but fought on foot) and true cavalry coexisted for centuries. Many, perhaps most, depictions of horsemen depicted on (Archaic) Greek and Italic pottery and frescoes are actually hoplites, not cavalry, e.g.

Spoiler

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Amphora_Louvre_F12.jpg

Here are some excerpts on cavalry from Philip Sabin, Hans van Wees, Michael Whitby (eds.) The Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare (Cambridge 2008):

  • On pre-Hellenistic cavalry:
    Spoiler

    117.thumb.png.de89e9e2289b0f41c782926787a4c6a2.png

    118.thumb.png.fcc3fa69da82f482ddd45a5bf3e06c9e.png

    119.thumb.png.084ac1d2d81b9ddf94a7f5647a7d68f5.png
     

  • And some more images:
    Spoiler

    136.thumb.png.509cc612a23605e8836d5033fb16bc79.png

    200.thumb.png.5e22373e3ed73eeff7cc978d5516bd4e.png

    201.thumb.png.64d7ba2e5d50ba7a385a4cf6df8f9ee3.png

    328.thumb.png.55389596fe4d63eb188c969164403fdf.png

    418.png.ab02648968894af7c7ea0856ecfb9ebd.png

  • On Alexander's cavalry:
    Spoiler

    331.thumb.png.f38552871efbcf2eeb59cec622fead23.png

    332.thumb.png.a1bb419a4d36fd36504ccf6f8f653fa9.png

    333.thumb.png.b40db74fd2bd038fd127e1f6063d4610.png

  • On Hellenistic cavalry:
    Spoiler

    344.png

    345.png

    346.png

    347.png

  • On “Polybian” cavalry:
    Spoiler

    352.thumb.png.b580872ef33d709c905e0805440f6c7d.png

    353.thumb.png.747592147cef1cf187404162d81907f0.png

    354.thumb.png.60d6c1125ff023d7ea6200d4d75cada3.png

 

Edited by Nescio
mounted hoplite amphora
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Yes, I figured that because the helmets and aspid shield.

Is complicated

Polybian cavalry . Is interesting.

I  converted  that image into text.

 

Quote

According to Polybius (3.107.10-11), the legion normally numbered
4,000 foot and 200 horse, rising to 5,000 foot and 300 horse in times
of exceptional danger. This conflicts with his account of legionary cavalry
(6.25.1-2) which has the legionary cavalry divided into ten squadrons, each
squadron commanded by three decuriones, giving a total normal strength
of 300 horsemen.

2. Roman cavalry

Roman cavalry adopted heavier equipment some time during che third
century. In an enigmatic passage, Polybius (6.25.3-11) states that “in the old
days' Roman cavalry had fought without cuirasses, which enabled them
to mount and dismount with case, but which exposed them to danger
in combat. Dismounting to fight as infantry remained a tactic specific to
Roman cavalry even after heavier equipment had been adopted.'"" Also,
Polybius continues, they had used light, easily broken spears fitted only
with a head and no butt, and light Icather shields the shape of a popamion,
a round, bossed cake used in temple sacrifices, but later on they adopted
Greek cavalry equipment (fig. 11.10).

Opinion as to when this change in equipment took place varies. The
most recent study by McCall puts che change during the middle years
of the Second Punic War, around 211, following the defeat ar Cannae
and the defection of Capua.Second-century representations of Roman
cavalry, such as the Aemilius Paullus monument, show Roman cavalry
with mail cuirasses and shields with umbo and spina (fig. 11.11). How-
ever, the popanum shield was never completely displaced.'"* Rather than
being divided into a multitude of different cavalry types using differ-
ent equipment and tactics, the cavalry fielded by the Romans and their

 

Resultado de imagen para popanum

Based in this relieve, with popanum.

Imagen relacionada

Quote

Two reconnaissance riders during the Second Macedonian War, receiving information from a sailor. B1, based on Curtius' relief, carries a shield of the "popanum" variety. B2, based on Servilius' coin, carries a "Greek" shield with a central thorn. Both figures wear the cavalry cloak (sagum), which is known to have been a heavy cloak of a very dark colour, practically black; probably made of natural wool of a very dark brown colour, and often worn as a mourning robe. Plutarch tells us that Crassus wore a black cloak instead of his red general's cloak on the eve of the battle of Carras in 53 BC; this act was interpreted as a bad omen by the troops. Crassus probably put on the mantle he had previously worn as a cavalry officer.
The tunics have been restored as faded white, with a narrow purple strip running down from the shoulders to the hem - a distinction that seems to have been limited to equestrians during the Republican period.

 

Edited by Lion.Kanzen

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image.png.e835d8380c24ee89965539f83dc4b748.png

Quote

181, 152 and 1583. OSCAN CAVALRY

151 and 152 are typical of the 4th century cavalry in the Campanian and Lucanian tomb paintings, and also in the
lost Samnite paintings. Roughly half the cavalry in art seem to have metal armour. One instead wears a white Greek
linen or leather cuirass. Cloaks are worn more often than infantry, who would obviously be more hampered by
them. 151 has his gathered up over his left arm, perhaps as protection as cavalry in most of the paintings lack shields.
He also has a riding-whip dangling from his left wrist. Cavalry rarely wear greaves, often replacing them with
bronze anklets. The paintings show them riding bareback, but see note to figure 175. Weapons are javelins; Livy
confirms this, mentioning Samnite cavalry throwing javelins. Swords are likely.

153, from Paestum, unusually has the counterweighted thrusting spear instead of javelins, and wears greaves as
well as a bronze disc on cross-straps. He carries a shield, so may be a little later than the last two and date to a period
when some or all Oscan cavalry had adopted shields.
A Campanian vase of the end of the 4th century shows a
horseman with a ribbed scutum, and this man’s shield too seems to be an oval scutum, white inside with a bronze rim.
This suggests shields were adopted somewhen in the late 4th century, though of course their general adoption may
have been a very slow process. The 3rd or 2nd century evidence discussed under 140 also indicates shields.

image.png.6706d42194ff5016b1611a27dab55894.pngimage.png.48511370c68c78d1c76e15b13404691c.png

 

Appulian Tarantine  cavalry.

image.png.aa18893bf885b024e1ea0c6501d01613.png

image.png

Edited by Lion.Kanzen

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Quote

178. OSCAN CAVALRY HORSE

Italian cavalry equipment was generally like Greek. For instance the Roman Mettius Curtius relief shows a
cavalryman with a simple rectangular saddlecloth and broad breast strap, plus a narrower strap round the rump.
Oscan equipment in the Capua and Paestum paintings however has some distinctive features. The horses are shown
bareback, but his may, as with the Greeks, be an artistic convention. Livy mentions Samnites with gold-
embroidered saddle cloths, but unfortunately in a generally unreliable passage, so the reference may be useless.
Some horses wore armour, a chamfron and poitrail of bronze plate lined with linen or leather and embossed with
considerable artistry. Such armour was used by the Italiote Greeks in the Sth century and adopted from them by the
Oscans. From the quality of the work it must have been very expensive, and hence rare. The two pieces of armour
are not always worn together. When the chamfron is absent, the nose and forehead straps of the bridle can have
bronze ornaments. The upright feathers, probably in holders attached to the chamfron, are not common. Collars
with bronze phalerae are fairly common, sometimes only one being worn, sometimes two as here. It seems likely that
the lower collar helped support the poitrail, though it is also found on unarmoured horses where it can only be
decorative.

G8eHg6K.png

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