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Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

Transliteration of Ancient Greek into English

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Nescio has provided clear and detailed scientific arguments why he prefers his standard - how about you have a look at those and find clear and detailed scientific arguments of your own why the standard you are proposing is superior, as you are clearly capable of doing? Being offended because he doesn't agree with you is not a scientific argument ;)

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I am not offended that he does not agree, I am offended because I offered to help fix a major deficit in 0 A.D. hellenic factions a very, very long time ago.

And no matter how long I wait I am accused of impatience. It seems there is no getting through this wall. Keep debating your petty arguments and do your own recordings. Oh I forgot, you cannot do so, because in spite of the smoke screen of supposedly detailed scientific arguments, you forgot to learn how to speak this language at all.

This is how you lose a contributor.

ΑΛΛΟΥΖΕΥΣΑΝΔΡΕΣΣΙΝΟΗΜΑΤΑΠΑΝΤΑΤΕΛΕΥΤΑΙ

 

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23 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

I am not offended that he does not agree, I am offended because I offered to help fix a major deficit in 0 A.D. hellenic factions a very, very long time ago.

And no matter how long I wait I am accused of impatience. It seems there is no getting through this wall. Keep debating your petty arguments and do your own recordings. Oh I forgot, you cannot do so, because in spite of the smoke screen of supposedly detailed scientific arguments, you forgot to learn how to speak this language at all.

This is how you lose a contributor.

ΑΛΛΟΥΖΕΥΣΑΝΔΡΕΣΣΙΝΟΗΜΑΤΑΠΑΝΤΑΤΕΛΕΥΤΑΙ

 

Hey, 

Come on, we just want to take the best decision here. If we chose the Library of Congress 2010 Transliteration Standard I want to make sure that's gonna be a sustainable choice for the next 20 years. 20 years from now I want to be able to point out the lenghty discussion that happened here expose the good arguments, and be able to justify my stance.

All the people are asking is that you take Nescio's point one by one (highlight the text click "quote this") and answer them. Nescio isn't against using the standard per se, but just wants answer on the potential flaws he sees in that.

The word impatience has not been written once in the previous page.

23 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

you forgot to learn how to speak this language at all.

I don't care about the speaking yet, I just want the specific names consistent. Voices can be another thread. In your academic studies does everyone agree with you all the time ? Don't you have to prove your points ?

 

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

I am not offended that he does not agree, I am offended because I offered to help fix a major deficit in 0 A.D. hellenic factions a very, very long time ago.

 

Well, this sounded like you were personally deeply offended

Quote


@Nescio claims it is an inferior standard and that it would be "a step back" - thereby he means of course also to signify that my knowledge and understanding of Greek is inferior since the proposer must surely be as inferior as his proposal.

 

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4 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

This is how you lose a contributor.

ΑΛΛΟΥΖΕΥΣΑΝΔΡΕΣΣΙΝΟΗΜΑΤΑΠΑΝΤΑΤΕΛΕΥΤΑΙ

 

You can lose a contributor if you never was a one. that is why you need starting make  the things by your own. 

 

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1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

You can lose a contributor if you never was a one. that is why you need starting make  the things by your own. 

 

Now that is a bit harsh. He has contributed research and image references.

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I am not going to give a long response to that, I provided direct contributions to correct and improve a plethora of historical inaccuracies in the game, and an accurate reconstruction of the Pharos and the only Attic recording this forum has ever seen. I sourced my contributed suggestions amply (except in the case of the absurd Aladdin carpets where I was served a reversed burden of proof challenge to provide sources of something's obvious non-existence) and received messages of thanks from forum and team members for these contributions. Their kindness still did not change the fact that nothing has been achieved on the Greek front in all this time. We still have no standards. And that is worse than the fact that all my other reasonable proposals have been fought every step of the way, as it became a custom to just reflexively oppose it if I wrote it, to seem clever without offering any substance or understanding.

@Lion.Kanzen you just spam the threads with whatever google images returned on the first search, simple-wikipedia articles seem to be the source of your understanding of antiquity, and you have now maltreated the English language in every single sentence you have written in this forum since I came here, and first offered to help the project. Even your 11-word signature has four errors in it alone, I do not care about your childish insults but am tired of having to decipher your illiterate scrawl and I think your 3521 likes to 15211 posts ratio says all that needs to be said.

Edited by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

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12 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

I am not going to give a long response to that, I provided direct contributions to correct and improve a plethora of historical inaccuracies in the game, and an accurate reconstruction of the Pharos and the only Attic recording this forum has ever seen. I sourced my contributed suggestions amply (except in the case of the absurd Aladdin carpets where I was served a reversed burden of proof challenge to provide sources of something's obvious non-existence) and received messages of thanks from forum and team members for these contributions. Their kindness still did not change the fact that nothing has been achieved on the Greek front in all this time. We still have no standards. And that is worse than the fact that all my other reasonable proposals have been fought every step of the way, as it became a custom to just reflexively oppose it if I wrote it, to seem clever without offering any substance or understanding.

@Lion.Kanzen you just spam the threads with whatever google images returned on the first search, simple-wikipedia articles seem to be the source of your understanding of antiquity, and you have now maltreated the English language in every single sentence you have written in this forum since I came here, and first offered to help the project. Even your 11-word signature has four errors in it alone, I do not care about your childish insults but am tired of having to decipher your illiterate scrawl and I think your 3521 likes to 15211 posts ratio says all that needs to be said.

my intention was not offended you. and I'm not here as random google researcher. my name is there in the credit list. :)

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ΟΝΑΘΗΝΑΙΟΙΠΟΛΛΑΚΙΣΕΑΥΤΩΝΣΤΡΑΤΗΓΟΝΗΙΡΗΝΤΑΙΞΕΝΟΝΟΝΤΑΚΑΙΦΑΝΟΣΘΕΝΗΤΟΝΑΝΔΡΙΟΝΚΑΙΗΡΑΚΛΕΙΔΗΝΤΟΝΚΛΖΟΜΕΝΙΟΝΟΥΣΗΔΕΗΠΟΛΙΣΞΕΝΟΥΣΟΝΤΑΣΕΝΔΕΙΞΑΜΕΝΟΥΣΟΤΙΑΞΙΟΙΛΟΓΟΥΕΙΣΙΚΑΙΕΙΣΣΤΡΑΤΗΓΙΑΣΚΑΙΕΙΣΤΑΣΑΛΛΑΣΑΡΧΑΣΑΓΕΙΙΩΝΑΔΑΡΑΤΟΝΕΦΕΣΙΟΝΟΥΧΑΙΡΗΣΕΤΑΙΣΤΡΑΤΗΓΟΝΚΑΙΤΙΜΗΣΕΙΕΑΝΔΟΚΗΙΑΞΙΟΣΛΟΓΟΥΕΙΝΑΙΤΙΔΕΟΥΚΑΘΗΝΑΙΟΙΜΕΝΕΣΤΕΟΙΕΦΕΣΙΟΙΤΟΑΡΧΑΙΟΝΚΑΙΗΕΦΕΣΟΣΟΥΔΕΜΙΑΣΕΛΑΤΤΩΝΠΟΛΕΩΣΑΛΛΑΓΑΡΣΥΩΙΩΝΕΙΜΕΝΑΛΗΘΗΛΕΓΕΙΣΩΣΤΕΧΝΗΙΚΑΙΕΠΙΣΤΗΜΗΙΟΙΟΣΤΕΕΙΟΜΗΡΟΝΕΠΑΙΝΕΙΝΑΔΙΚΕΙΣΟΣΤΙΣΕΜΟΙΥΠΟΣΧΟΜΕΝΟΣΩΣΠΟΛΛΑΚΑΙΚΑΛΑΠΕΡΙΟΜΗΡΟΥΕΠΙΣΣΤΑΣΑΙΚΑΙΦΑΣΚΩΝΕΠΙΔΕΙΞΕΙΝΕΞΑΠΑΤΑΙΣΜΕΚΑΙΠΟΛΛΟΥΔΕΙΣΕΠΙΔΕΙΞΑΙΟΣΓΕΟΥΔΕΑΤΤΑΕΣΤΙΤΑΥΤΑΠΕΡΙΩΝΔΕΙΝΟΣΕΙΕΘΕΛΕΙΣΕΙΠΕΙΝΠΑΛΑΙΕΜΟΥΛΙΠΑΡΟΥΝΤΟΣΑΛΛΑΑΤΕΧΝΩΣΩΣΠΕΡΟΠΡΩΤΕΥΣΠΑΝΤΟΔΑΠΟΣΓΙΓΝΗΙΣΤΡΕΦΟΜΕΝΟΣΕΝΩΚΑΙΚΑΤΩΕΩΣΤΕΛΕΥΤΩΝΔΙΑΦΥΓΩΝΜΕΣΤΡΑΤΗΓΟΣΑΝΕΦΑΝΗΣΙΝΑΜΗΕΠΙΔΕΙΞΗΙΣΩΣΔΕΙΝΟΣΕΙΤΗΝΠΕΡΙΟΜΗΡΟΥΣΟΦΙΑΝ

ClassicalGreekfor0AD.mp3

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43 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Currently I am at the Hellfest festival. I will answer later. 

I considered going this year. Too bad :)

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Hello everyone,

After a private discussion today we have decided to use the the Library of Congress Standard proposed by @Anaxandridas ho Skandiates with a little modification, where iotas will be added.

The page and the game should be updated accordingly. 

 

On a side note we both hope someday being able to also add the real alphabets in the game, but that's way more tricky.

 

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A missed opportunity. The adopted standard is not a one-to-one map and meaningful information (vowel length, accents) is lost. But if that's what you want, so be it, let's move on, there are inconsistencies waiting to be fixed.

I've updated the trac wiki page accordingly.

7 hours ago, Stan` said:

On a side note we both hope someday being able to also add the real alphabets in the game, but that's way more tricky.

The game has no difficulty with displaying (polytonic) Greek, so that could be done in a mod already. As for the other languages, finding a font that supports Brahmi and Old Persian Cuneiform is not trivial.

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Just now, Nescio said:

A missed opportunity. The adopted standard is not a one-to-one map and meaningful information (vowel length, accents) is lost. But if that's what you want, so be it, let's move on, there are inconsistencies waiting to be fixed.

I've updated the trac wiki page accordingly.

The game has no difficulty with displaying (polytonic) Greek, so that could be done in a mod already. As for the other languages, finding a font that supports Brahmi and Old Persian Cuneiform is not trivial.


The solution could be to create our own fonts, we might as well use a new period-style Greek font if we are going to create new ones for Brahmi and Old Persian? What about Kushites?

I would be willing to submit a new special (improved) version of my font for free use in the game, based upon hellenistic inscriptions:

 

451915517_JAAAAAFONTQUARTERSIZEpng.thumb.png.800eedcf2f7eb3c0ce44088d8fc365a6.png

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I still think that whichever solution we end up using for Greek characters/polytonic - whether it be included in the box as an extra line, or as a togglable tool-tip controlled from the settings, we should include all the information that @Nescio prudently requests in a polytonic minuscule script.

Would also volunteer to work to create perhaps a patch, or whatever is necessary if it could for instance become a togglabe feature from the settings, to make the whole game in Greek with only Greek characters in UI for use by students learning Greek. I am sure eventually students of Persian and Brahmi could be made to do the same.

But essentially the first question must be: If I pay to have the above font (after the necessary discussion about individual letter proposals) "rendered" into a regular font and submit the font file for free use to the 0 A.D. project - can we incorporate it into the game, at some future point when a working mechanism has been found? If yes, then I would start a thread forthwith to invite criticism of above letter designs, reach concensus and proceed to have the font cleaned, and give it for free to this project for all inscriptions and purposes.

And the second question: Who can make fonts for the Persians and Kushites and Mauryans?



(P.S. Without wanting to contribute to that field since my understanding is rudimentary: for the Mauryans was Kharoshthi or Brahmi script decided upon? If so what were the primary reasons for this? Do we need a font based upon the pillars?
P.P.S. Which script is designated for the Kushites?)

Edited by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

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First of all, Mauryas, please, not Mauryans (it took a long time to get this fixed).

9 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

to make the whole game in Greek with only Greek characters in UI for use by students learning Greek.

That could be done with a translation (via transifex); currently the available options (see Settings/Language in game) are modern languages, including Greek and Ukrainian, but in principle Classical Greek and Latin translations could be added—it would be great to have—but as with everything else, it requires motivated people to actually do the work.

9 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

If I pay to have the above font (after the necessary discussion about individual letter proposals) "rendered" into a regular font and submit the font file for free use to the 0 A.D. project - can we incorporate it into the game, at some future point when a working mechanism has been found?

It doesn't matter something is paid for, what matters is under which licence the font is released by its creator (e.g. CC-BY-SA 4.0). That said, I wouldn't recommend you to spent time and money on it right now.

9 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

for the Mauryans was Kharoshthi or Brahmi script decided upon?

Because the typical 0 A.D. player does not know any foreign scripts, the policy is and always has been to render native languages in the Latin alphabet. The idea to display other scripts is little more than a dream of something that might be nice to have in the distant future.

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3 minutes ago, Nescio said:

The idea to display other scripts is little more than a dream of something that might be nice to have in the distant future.

That's correct :)

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56 minutes ago, Nescio said:

That could be done with a translation (via transifex); currently the available options (see Settings/Language in game) are modern languages, including Greek and Ukrainian, but in principle Classical Greek and Latin translations could be added—it would be great to have—but as with everything else, it requires motivated people to actually do the work.

Transifex doesn't have a locale for Ancient Greek defined, but I have found them very approachable, so I could request one for you. We will need to supply the plural form rules and the ISO language code.

This is what the plural form rules look like for Modern Greek: https://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/supplemental/language_plural_rules.html#el

This is what I have found for the ISO language code:

grc   Greek, Ancient (to 1453)

https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php

https://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry/language-subtag-registry

Edited by GunChleoc

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32 minutes ago, GunChleoc said:

Transifex doesn't have a locale for Ancient Greek defined, but I have found them very approachable, so I could request one for you.

Thanks, I don't know how transifex works, but it would be great if you could do that!

As for language tags, la for Latin, el for Modern Greek, grc for Classical Greek, and gmy for Mycenean Greek (although I highly doubt anyone is ever going to write that). I'll have a look at the plural form rules later.

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