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Genava55

===[TASK]=== Current issues with Celtic units and guideline for the next

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2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Which team members care about game design and which don't (no need to build a consensus with folks who have no interest).

That's actually a pretty good question. I care enough not to make big decisions the decaying patch will be the biggest in years, but I don't know about the others. I think @elexis cares as well, since borg's mod exists :)

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6 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

the decaying patch will be the biggest in years.

You mean a patch that will fall in (changes) or that there's some patch rotting somewhere? Didnt understand

BTW, was thinking specially about the art changes, if they will replace the current celt units

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6 hours ago, av93 said:

You mean a patch that will fall in (changes) or that there's some patch rotting somewhere? Didnt understand

Animals fattening, carcasses rotting, berry bushes regenerating or whatever. And yeah, he is right. It’s the first patch in a while adding a gameplay feature.

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8 hours ago, av93 said:

BTW, was thinking specially about the art changes, if they will replace the current celt units

The art issue about the Celts seems to be recurrent. The first designs from 2003 and 2005 are already not the same than the actual units and buildings. 

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2 hours ago, cloud9 said:

Animals fattening, carcasses rotting, berry bushes regenerating or whatever. And yeah, he is right. It’s the first patch in a while adding a gameplay feature.

How I forget it. Surely my bias waiting for a big gameplay change.

I just hope to see more differences between gauls and britons, and better art for them. 

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I did some research for more diversities for the heroes. Italic bronze cuirass, small possibility of a borrowing in Italy but uncertain. Horned helmets seems to be possible but there are clear confusion from the Romans about Gauls, Galatians and Germans and about the helmet type (Greek helmets everywhere in their relief, even too old models). I am still skeptical on the horned helmet uses and I prefer a use for the Epouanos unit but it depends of your opinion. For Vercingetorix, I think a crested-helmet is the better option, not the horns or the wheel.

Brennos design:

Spoiler

Several possibilities:

Agris Helmet:
image.png.6095a361198b452abe82cf7025decdd0.png

Canosa di Puglia helmet:

image.png.35261e7ebcffd54b4015ea4106a72a84.pngimage.png.bb4cbd828044f64ffe0815a5560a1466.png

Amfreville helmet:

image.png.aec2455ea5d6ae61646e5837c96ab85f.pngimage.png.3235ac03ccf5c9d9afcd11d255e2254f.png

Filottrano sword and scabbard (number 3):

image.png.26564b4e96992ed6b132b13e387dfa01.png

image.thumb.png.b7e6c881635f2a4dca662a0b34067d81.png

Chain mail armor (statue of Entremont):

image.png.ea916bb3c03b2bc8e262ab24e1761228.png

Italic bronze cuirass from Canosa di Puglia (possible borrowing but could be a mixing during the excavation since there was a lot of other weapons):

image.thumb.png.4a41e43e15dd2fa5507625035d8cd10d.png

Shield boss and decorations from a burial in Marne:

image.png.982e66212680113d542286b96840f78d.png

image.png.47817451d2dd8e6c6229ce25e80d8417.pngimage.png.cf386fc8185efd23db6d319e829b4868.pngimage.png.18ccf18573c0a0d9b5ddf9567eee1bc5.png

 

Britomaros/Viridomaros design:

Spoiler

Shield boss from a Marne burial:

image.png.d8fe339bd8978d2683832327dc738212.png

Ciumesti helmet:

image.png.314b544176521a547ac77807b5b865a6.pngimage.png.ff6288461318fce6526ab94a02cd1adf.png

image.thumb.png.c7c39996024acaffc4b4cff07b8f1585.png

Colorful cuirass (maybe with a pectoral protection in addition):

image.png.4ed6fed015b066f845925ab397de9e2d.pngimage.png.fbaa6ac549939ee1b3bc2135de86d459.png

image.png.feb1af9201364cad295be63a9a8cf272.png

image.png.e656dd6e743d07e9007b8f6168a94fdf.png

Decorated spearhead:

image.png.7a90060cdd2e93f1e5eb7694ddd85fb6.png

 

 

Uercingetorix (do not forget that Vercingetorix was close to Caesar before the revolt, he was his "contubernalis")

Spoiler

Chain mail and cape:

image.png.deb093792d38b64b486ad5ec710fa960.png

Alesia helmet with a crest:

image.png.f287c6fd9da3bc27d26646d80c8d6adc.png

Helmet with a boar-crest:

image.png.b8b55f2ee5449321650e33e7000aa6b1.png

image.png.2c0f4909cd56871f1b8ea13caf2056ce.png

image.png.6eee6a70f4189246e01502e71b30d57f.png

image.png.7926e9ab121f87bbb4055193374be827.png

Crested helmet in general :

image.png.a1b312f076f8f7b43ed1145bbbad8329.png

image.png.e6066ea38602062a6aeea355186fc6f8.pngimage.png.8011c52d19486f3e750b208e87da117e.png

image.png.9c087395f571df1bf35fd05e38e96c25.png

image.thumb.png.9a94458c9291831743e659f7fd55a7fe.png

image.thumb.png.50e8af93e0772f549c369d88a6f52bf1.png

image.thumb.png.7cf3ffd5857c63ba483380ec03c186a8.png

Wheel symbols on gallic coin:

image.png.57a369b9baf64e8b3ab4ab037353fcd5.png

image.thumb.png.eacd7c3caa6af9c3acc565c35ea21c07.png

image.thumb.png.27c230dc027166774f7c42e416484efd.png

Crested helmet on Rome's enemies :

image.png.2a04442e60444110550f4bfd11b1f4d3.png

 

Helmet with horns from Roman representations:

image.png.acc3bbc928cb7f1996693a6e5ffd24ad.png

image.png.360ee46cd61ed60e5c1f825e348b07c9.png

Solar wheel crest from Roman representations:

image.png.9b7913a7f32ac07795b78f5c79e4220f.png

A relief of Entremont from Southern Gauls (damaged):

image.png.91f9ef3e0b35649f1e487e5bd44cf1ad.png

Possible artistic interpretation for the basis of the helmet:

image.png.c721abbdb9b8fd09baaaab7e2cf676ba.png

Another artistic interpretation:

image.png.223c7c6bea3a6ecee33e18747291a688.png

These helmets really look like Hellenistic helmets, are these a mistake of the Roman artists? Maybe. Maybe not.

image.png.0c31267102be7b0d29a6323df2aef5f8.png

Actually, the only helmet clearly made for horns is very hard to date correctly and comes from a territory between Celts and Germans (Dusseldorf):

image.png.ccc53b222041334a6ec34fd385771ec1.pngimage.png.cbbcbaa3ef5f72b9804eb16237f660dc.png

image.png.2505decd790e9925badf1f2ce30b21c6.png

Kessel version of a Port helmet, good basis for a horned helmet as well:

image.png.56af63ad16e87391c72a38e311a8dd46.pngimage.png.4fcf2ecb898d5edcec6f4e0ebd0c1843.png

Roman coin of Marcus Aemilius Lepidus and Caius Fonteius Capito :

image.thumb.png.d52c53dfdd16bed9254e781ed0620474.png

BUT there is one big mistake with the Roman representations. The Gauls actually have a very typical feature in their representation of bull horns! The round tip at the end of the horns:

image.png.b0bfe1d23fc45e01ccf423ae40c8398f.png

image.png.d3f5fe772c83e0dae07ed247f0b72658.png

image.png.dbc585f242fe834685fd078b477a5eee.png

image.png.84a247989ea3a1806c6a266e9034ad22.pngimage.png.35b21b72cc92b89b0be2add7adad1d31.pngimage.png.95723de954c2ffbeb4161168ff82bc61.pngimage.png.dd1f3dc6cfd6887765b1c2825d69a0b6.png

image.png.e8cff69619fb18a55d6b4d1c33b60c26.pngimage.png.a33cf309f7b7ebda61251cebcf4166f5.png

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gallic third phase champions design - A help to picture these

Gallic elite cavalry from the Late La Tène period (1st century BC) - Suggested name: Comaterecos (Patrician, Senator or Magistrate); Uerouicos (victorious warrior, great fighter); Adscoros (attendant, retainer); Donnoconios (noble warrior, noble fighter).

Description => Alesia, Mihovo, Boé, Port or Foret helmet / Trousers / Cape / Chain mail / Heads / Long shield with shield boss and orle protection

Spoiler

image.thumb.jpeg.234f18149365086ae584271e81be600e.jpegimage.jpeg.782b49bfcfbb4483c23852c63d401037.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.73fac3e15f49510605e678246ebaa18b.jpeg

image.jpeg.e3b94c2c1e19cbf7f92c3be034145106.jpeg

image.jpeg.43fb97e50bf92c8e31a413b9c20ad830.jpeg

image.jpeg.b4a785164affe7d3a10b3bcb908edea5.jpegimage.png.b1b5c8a9ebd65ff602cd415c5f5b491a.png

image.thumb.png.22ebd608addd91e3e2bdc876734077ce.png

image.png.daf146be13ed0a62dd8dd6d1b030e140.png

image.png.91f9ef3e0b35649f1e487e5bd44cf1ad.png

image.png.ed920cef9aac5c15dbf9b4d3a74e1956.png

image.png.3841d4f50be074ad0c4fb7ff78c4707c.png

 

Lepontic axeman - Suggested name: Namantobogios (smasher of enemies).

Description => Port, Alesia, Negau or Ticino helmet / Trousers / Cape / Chain mail or Leather cuirass / one-handed axe / Long shield with shield boss and orle protection

Spoiler

image.thumb.jpeg.fd5b0f3fa1c889bcb09edf0db25bc20d.jpegimage.thumb.jpeg.8c8e83c85fd6fdc642d45ed0f5966328.jpegimage.jpeg.b6942e89096f079a6454c5f55f603cf2.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.cf5fff25c5f0989e30a47236c7e342f9.jpegimage.thumb.jpeg.538e0bdda2f2e3397ac67c8a29bbabd1.jpegimage.thumb.jpeg.2620108eeaa08eb8a73f7ef07b953a91.jpeg

image.jpeg.34272be58cf33f77f2c6db514de1fb88.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.a897d580b846dd1600549f1e1ecdb310.jpeg

 

Giubiasco_warrior.jpg

image.thumb.png.497bdb905c51bad9bc4b2e9902d4ba67.png

 

Celtic and Germanic swift cavalry - Suggested name: Epouanos (horse-killer); Uerouicos (victorious warrior, great fighter).

Description => Foret, Port (Kessel), Coolus, Germanic or horned helmet. / Trousers / Tunic or thick tunic / Celtic cape or Bear cape / No shield or Medium shield or Shield on the back / Long lance

Spoiler

Plutarch, The Life of Crassus, XXV: For they laid hold of the long spears of the Parthians, and grappling with the men, pushed them from their horses, hard as it was to move them owing to the weight of their armour; and many of the Gauls forsook their own horses, and crawling under those of the enemy, stabbed them in the belly. These would rear up in their anguish, and die trampling on riders and foemen indiscriminately mingled.

Caesar, De bello gallico, 4: "But the enemy, as soon as they saw our horses, the number of which was 5000, whereas they themselves had not more than 800 horses, because those which had gone over the Meuse for the purpose of foraging had not returned, while our men had no apprehensions, because their ambassadors had gone away from Caesar a little before, and that day had been requested by them as a period of truce, made an onset on our men, and soon threw them into disorder. When our men, in their turn, made a stand, they, according to their practice, leaped from their horses to their feet, and stabbing our horses in the belly and overthrowing a great many of our men, put the rest to flight, and drove them forward so much alarmed that they did not desist from their retreat till they had come in sight of our army. In that encounter seventy-four of our horses were slain; among them, Piso, an Aquitanian, a most valiant man, and descended from a very illustrious family; whose grandfather had held the sovereignty of his state, and had been styled friend by our senate." 

Diodorus Siculus, 5, 30: For armour they use long shields, as high as a man, which are wrought in a manner peculiar to them, some of them even having the figures of animals embossed on them in bronze, and these are skilfully worked with an eye not only to beauty but also to protection. On their heads they put bronze helmets which have large embossed figures standing out from them and give an appearance of great size to those who wear them; for in some cases horns are attached to the helmet so as to form a single piece, in other cases images of the fore-parts of birds or four-footed animals.

Diodorus Siculus, 5, 30: The spears (λόγχας) they brandish, which they call lanciae, have iron heads a cubit in length and even more, and a little under two palms in breadth.

Port helmet from Kessel:

image.png.56af63ad16e87391c72a38e311a8dd46.pngimage.png.4fcf2ecb898d5edcec6f4e0ebd0c1843.png

Horned helmet from Dusseldorf:

image.png.2505decd790e9925badf1f2ce30b21c6.png

image.png.d3f5fe772c83e0dae07ed247f0b72658.png

image.png.de140964407a7b89de375b150785b425.png

image.png.360ee46cd61ed60e5c1f825e348b07c9.png

image.png.dbc585f242fe834685fd078b477a5eee.png

Bear skin cape with two bear paws/claws to wrap around the neck - from a Bastarnae cremation burial

image.png

image.png.391b9df58b22e6a461e3151863082aec.png

Germanic inclusion:

image.png

image.png.5df64061851098e600f05f5dc4ca4660.png

image.png.3950045867cf677f7ab40d965291b4a7.png

image.png.e9d337de88d84ff72e8ee2055f2313a6.png

image.png.19fc0a7e6b7d349555aac25c1caa8a0a.png

image.png.ef4286feb691aef10def228ba1ca7b08.png

image.png.961286eeb92a2c5fed01e51e2522d2f5.png

59744dd5a8d49af0cae8e02981aa5e8f.jpg&key

image.thumb.jpeg.e7a8525c84bc6ea3027deae866877ba9.jpeg

Long spearheads:

image.png 

image.png

 

Aquitanian champion swordsman - Suggested name: Soliduros (Bodyguard, watcher)

Description => Alesia, Boé or Mihovo helmet / Trousers / Cape / Chain mail or Cardiophylax (less frequent) / Long shield with shield boss and orle protection

Spoiler

Caesar, De bello gallico, 3: And while the attention of our men is engaged in that matter, in another part Adcantuannus, who held the chief command, with 600 devoted followers whom they call soldurii (the conditions of whose association are these,—that they enjoy all the conveniences of life with those to whose friendship they have devoted themselves: if any thing calamitous happen to them, either they endure the same destiny together with them, or commit suicide: nor hitherto, in the, memory of men, has there been found any one who, upon his being slain to whose friendship he had devoted himself, refused to die); Adcantuannus, [I say] endeavoring to make a sally with these, when our soldiers had rushed together to arms, upon a shout being raised at that part of the, fortification, and a fierce battle had been fought there, was driven back into the town, yet he obtained from Crassus [the indulgence] that he should enjoy the same terms of surrender [as the other inhabitants].

 

image.thumb.jpeg.2e33c2b90f1c3c6083d7da44184294e1.jpeg

image.thumb.png.9be05a0752a3be3fc93c5d31ed099c5b.pngimage.png.cb90e5c87dbcc29103e275e8e6cea612.png

image.thumb.jpeg.f4a939e5f5457ea689e75792a7956ba9.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.c83cf9cfb6edcfeddca357fa4f061c3a.jpegimage.jpeg.f271232edc99f49c7aebc701d3f97210.jpeg

image.png.0dfd802c9bcaf5de59c42d74b1850c48.png

image.jpeg.a4c4eced01072b76b5452ce0b9fca40b.jpeg

Warrior of Lattes, Montpellier, Etruscan and Iberian influence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3257146.stm

https://www.academia.edu/272135/The_Warrior_of_Lattes_An_Iron_Age_Statue_Discovered_In_Mediterranean_France_with_Michel_Py_

image.png.8d0a0d7e2ce9570c3b89ded7271c5a93.png

Soliferrum

image.png.e70c45e9c8b3c9a34a9030d31e9a6256.png

 

 

 

Edited by Genava55
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Britons heroes:

Caratacos - Son of King Cunobelinos.

Spoiler


With the help of his brother Togodumnos, he attacks Verica, the king of the Atrebates, and seizes his kingdom. Verica takes refuge on the continent, asks, and gets the help of Rome. The conquest of island Brittany begins ...

In 43 AD, he took the lead against Rome, which was beginning to invade the island. He was beaten on the Medway and then on the Thames, then at Camulodunum (Colchester), his brother Togodumnos was killed in the first engagement. He took refuge among the Silures.

In 49 AD, he again attacked the Romans with the help of the Silures and Ordovices. Again vanquished, in a battle in which his wife, daughter, and brother were captured, he took refuge with Cartimandua, the queen of the Brigantes. Unfortunately for him, she did not wish to have problems with the Romans, and that is why she gave him to the Romans.

Brought to Rome, he was pardoned in 51 AD by the Emperor Claudius, following the speech he addressed to him during his triumph. But he could never return to the island of Brittany.

A remarkable quote from Caratacos, for the attention of Emperor Claudius: "If you [the Romans], you want to command the whole world, is this a reason for the whole world to submit to your law?"

image.png.10e3b8fd8cf1a983b809028be09c4adb.png

image.png.ae3fdd93dc1680b2d16a9bc3a73c85a9.png

An interpretation from Angus McBride:

image.png.b089a065d209a0a3c77724339ada86d6.png

Anthropomorphic sword, 1st century BC, Yorkshire:

image.png.9db4da60935e06a1ab02a1e8343da775.png

https://myarmoury.com/nateb_swor_dt201A.html

Chain mail Kirkburn 3rd/2nd century BC:

image.png.b9a1d5b89280bafc8eaafff2ef6a3894.png

The South Cave British sword:

image.jpeg.1e2e9633bc082f74bca2f006fbbfbef5.jpeg

The Chertsey Shield 400 BC - 250 BC

image.png.02f6486e394aa604c293b6603bb47aa1.png

Witham shield - 4th century BC

image.png.483fd93b66dd61558c47330763305d1b.png

Battersea shield - 2nd-1st century BC

image.png.70cd1d224612d8b3a558961eebb1bb81.png

Cunobelinos

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunobeline

The Waterloo helmet (150-50 BC):

image.png.2789236e6d7917f9caf57b5ee7b8f6d1.png

 

Kirkburn Sword

image.png.5565e20cad051c1bde9b868e1ae993a1.pngimage.thumb.jpeg.ef4269eeae32cb47b1a0c465e44e3201.jpeg

Chain mail Kirkburn 3rd/2nd century BC:

image.png.b9a1d5b89280bafc8eaafff2ef6a3894.png

The Chertsey Shield 400 BC - 250 BC

image.png.02f6486e394aa604c293b6603bb47aa1.png

Witham shield - 4th century BC

image.png.483fd93b66dd61558c47330763305d1b.png

Battersea shield - 2nd-1st century BC

image.png.70cd1d224612d8b3a558961eebb1bb81.png

Bouddica

Spoiler

River Thames 200-50 BC

image.png.c616b1e7c3fa5e7483e4a7d6f4c900b2.png

image.png.98e0cbfdd09b21fb31d63ff5a6457525.png

The Chertsey Shield 400 BC - 250 BC

image.png.02f6486e394aa604c293b6603bb47aa1.png

Witham shield - 4th century BC

image.png.483fd93b66dd61558c47330763305d1b.png

Battersea shield - 2nd-1st century BC

image.png.70cd1d224612d8b3a558961eebb1bb81.png

 

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An example of a very problematic subject about horned helmets in Roman relief, the Glanum monument. It is a cenotaph (memorial) of three peoples having won the citizenship under the Roman army (but maybe a generation before the three peoples deceased, through their father). Monument dated between 30 and 20 BC.

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.55c78a4e502c89072974a09aa08f69a4.png

image.thumb.png.bbe4ed7427d4b2d3dad54a38413ad1fe.png

 

It is why Europa Barbarorum choose to represent veteran legionaries with horned helmet too:

https://www.deviantart.com/tuxalin/art/Horned-helmet-with-mask-601415722

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioqSlJbgnK0

 

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.60537aef8fd36a1563302d2e7d0d43d3.png

image.thumb.png.8990bf81e0e313eb7a3bb31e679466ca.png

 

Edited by Genava55

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Arrian comments on the exercise of the Roman cavalry (hippika gymnasia)

"Besides, I am not unaware that it will be difficult to explain every word, for most are not even Latin names, but some are Iberian or Gallic, when they are Gallic practices that the Romans have appropriated, Gallic cavalry having in their eyes a strong reputation in battles. Indeed, among other things, it is for this reason also that the Romans are worthy of praise: they did not content themselves with their own ancestral customs but retained everywhere what was good and appropriate it. Thus we realize that some have borrowed weapons (and today they are called Roman because the Romans have particularly well used), others military exercises, the chairs of their judges and the dress lined with purple. Borrowing from other peoples even gods, they honor them as if they were their own. At least their rituals, it is said, are still performed today, for some, according to the usage of the Achaeans, and for others following the common usages of all Greeks. Some rituals are even Phrygian."

"It is at this point that good horsemanship is especially needed to be able simultaneously to throw at those who are charging in and to give one's right hand side the protection of the shield. When riding parallel to his target, the rider must swivel himself to the right in order to throw; when making a complete about-turn, he must throw in the matter called, in the Gallic tongue petrinos, which is the most difficult of all. For he must turn right round as far as the tenderness of the sides will allow, to face the horse's tail, so as to throw backwards as straight as possible, and having done so, he must quickly turn forward again and bring his shield to cover his back, since if he turns without getting protection, he exposes a vulnerable target to the enemy."

"They advance first with pikes leveled in defensive style, then as though they were overtaking a fleeing enemy. Others, as if against another enemy, as their horses turn, swing their shields over their heads to a position behind them and turn their pikes as though meeting an enemy's assault. This maneuver is called in Gallic toloutegon. Also they draw their swords and make a variety of strokes, best calculated to overtake an enemy in flight, to kill a man already down, or to achieve any success by a quick movement [along] from the flanks. Nor is this all: they demonstrate in as great a variety as possible, the number of shapes and forms which can be given to the act of leaping on a horse. Finally they demonstrate how a man wearing his armour can leap onto a horse when it is running. Some call this the 'wayfarer's jump'."

"And every man called must answer: "present! Hearing his name shouted aloud, and immediately pushing his horse, armed with three spears. He must shoot first towards the target by placing himself at the end of the land whose land has been turned over, the second from the stand itself, while the horse continues to march straight ahead, and the third, he does things according to the rules and as the emperor prescribes them, while the horse rotates to the right, on another target, set up expressly on the order of the emperor to receive the third lance. This is the hardest pitch of all, as it is done before the horse has completely terminated its maneuver, while the movement itself is being made. It is indeed the launch that is called xunèma, in Gallic language, that he must execute, and which is not easy to achieve with a javelin without iron."

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