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Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

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Problem with your suggestion (art and legal point)

Spoiler

image.png.8a4ed6e3eeb23a509de98635d6c43280.png

This is complete damage so is unusable. We need a restored one.

Those are damaged

Spoiler

image.png.8869084dc974e348cba9d14be55b22e6.png

image.thumb.png.8c061772040fabe2d008df57141bf073.png

The frescoes are going to need an art curator, an expert we probably don't know.

The others are damaged and don't look as if they were finished (obvious). I think you've already thought about that detail.

and in the legal part we must use images compatible with our art licenses.

Please be patient, this project is voluntary.

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21 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

I studied European art history at a European "elite" university; anyway, these are only given to present a sense of colour-schemes used in Hellenistic times, for inspiration to our designers in choosing building colours.

Color scheme is most simple form of all components of trying made a replica or trying to , you know that isn't enough.

That is not enough to repair or imitate a classic work - hellenistic, with one mentality (ideosyncracy and world view), the other is technical and form of the epoch, especially the interpretation, the theme, the materials, since we are going to use digital art, to imitate 50% of the original.  
 
All this related to the space and perspective they had, this must be known or explained in detail.

Then would come the texture, luminosity, this is not exactly a still life of a more modern period.

 later on the line and the objects creating a harmony, the set a whole, unity of all these elements to be appreciated.

is something that requires skills and knowledge.

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image.png.99d75ca991da40920d469a6f65f7dabb.png

sorry if I'm unable to found a restored one from our timeframe (Hellenistic period)

image.png.d34984183aee9115da6a4b0d03e72a26.png

But there are others bass relieves

image.png.c787d00ae5a183ac777d6e647234bb70.pngimage.png.5c8900d1d6f066ed9cb0b2687e7cbbfd.png

By the way you can found an example of a Fresco Hellenistic restored?

OK can be nice idea make one, using all 2D art team.-----

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1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

image.png.99d75ca991da40920d469a6f65f7dabb.png

sorry if I'm unable to found a restored one from our timeframe (Hellenistic period)

image.png.d34984183aee9115da6a4b0d03e72a26.png

But there are others bass relieves

image.png.c787d00ae5a183ac777d6e647234bb70.pngimage.png.5c8900d1d6f066ed9cb0b2687e7cbbfd.png

By the way you can found an example of a Fresco Hellenistic restored?

OK can be nice idea make one, using all 2D art team.-----

 

FULL STOP AND WARNING, those "sculpture colour reconstructions" and the entire series they are from are useless.

The Pompeii artwork however are GREAT examples. Pompeii's art IS Hellenistic. You must understand that the Romans never developed any art of their own, instead they first adopted Hellenistic art, and then just continued developing variants of it until late antiquity, when you can say that the Eastern Roman Empire actually developed its own art. Before there is no such thing is "Roman" art - there is Greek art, and later Graeco-Roman art. Southern Italy, Magna Graeca, was populated by Greeks. Essentially you can expect a large part of all artworks executed to be done by Greek sculptors and painters; in Pompeii the scrolls of literature are largely in Greek, and the mosaics etc. are full of Greek subjects, what would be Graeco-Roman subjects, since they shared so much of their religion. Techniques, subjects, methods, materials, including paint - all were taken directly from Hellenistic culture. Therefore you find also in the decorations of Pompeii, our best sources for Hellenistic theatrical stage decorations, masks, busts and statues of Greek masterpieces in copy, mosaics like the Alexander mosaic, etc. etc. etc.

 

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On 1/1/2019 at 6:51 AM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

@Sundiata  Let us postpone that entire exchange of arguments to a separate thread, and focus on the issues at hand. There is enough to do! It will be an exciting task once we get so far. INDO-GREEK CIV. Awesome idea! What a historic campagn we could make!!

Sure, no problem. I'm going to open a research thread on the Greco Bactrian Kingdom sometime soon. I'm sure you'll be able to provide us with all the Greek literary sources (as there are only very few)

Just some closing remarks from my end.

Spoiler

We are indeed probably not that far apart. I'm focussing primarily on the Greco Bactrian Kingdom, not so much the Indo-Greek Kingdom, although there's obviously a clear relation. I was just a little "triggered" by "we must assume that these kingdoms, which were indeed as you say the last independent hellenistic kingdoms, were exactly like all the other hellenistic kingdoms", which just isn't true from an architectural perspective (apart from the theatre at Ai Khanoum, I'm yet to see a single purely Greek structure in Bactria). Neither is the ethnic composition the same, and even the variety of religions professed, not only by their subject populations but also by the Greeks in Bactria themselves. They would look and feel quite different from the other Hellenistic civs in-game, which is a good thing, to have accurate variety. That was my main point.  

I'm familiar with the Periplus of the Erythrean Sea. I don't recall it saying anything about Greeks mass-migrating out of Bactria. That route might have been very profitable, but also extremely arduous, and this time, seems rather speculative on your part to suggest that there was some kind of exodus through that route. I'm sure some Greeks migrated out of the region, but it couldn't have been that many. It took more than 2000 km over difficult terrain, now potentially hostile, just to reach the coast. Not really an urbanite family affair.   

  

1 hour ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

FULL STOP AND WARNING, those "sculpture colour reconstructions" and the entire series they are from are useless.

Would you care to elaborate? I thought the color reconstruction of the Alexander Sarcophagus was legit? Did I miss something? 

https://j4communications.com/files/2014/12/DSM_Alexander_A4_eng_finalLR-copy.pdf

 

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2 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Would you care to elaborate? I thought the color reconstruction of the Alexander Sarcophagus was legit? Did I miss something? 

 

Definitely. These reconstructions are all not legit because they are executed with the poorest quality workmanship imaginable.

We have some real-colour extant examples, I could find dozens but here are two to begin with, and we can see that they of course had expert statue painters which were a profession of their own, just as they had experts in the other arts.

Or did you really think that the same civilization which produced the Derveni krater and the Alexander sarkophagos would not be capable of a better paint job than that series? It serves to please "scholars" who like to sell their books and make themselves famous, but it deceives hundreds of thousands, because their scholarly work is 90% correct, but it is the last 10% that makes the different between "authentic" and "fake". That takes real insight, and a real knowledge of the subject matter :znaika:

 

4474d012d28466c578a1db821e93306f--ancient-greek-art-ancient-greece.jpg

11220838_595822293892106_5789817417704041301_n.jpg

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That smiley should really be my avatar :znaika:

Anyway, I hope that you will gain more confidence as conversations develop in the coming weeks and months. Of course I will provide all the Greek sources for the Indo-Greeks and the Indo-Bactrians, as for any other subject matter.

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@Anaxandridas ho Skandiates Yes, I noticed that they glossed over the lacquer finishing, pun intended...  But to say that they are useless and fake is a bit harsh, don't you think? They put an incredible amount of work into it, which I'm yet to see repeated, let alone improved by other teams of experts. I don't think they're too far off, perhaps not a mythical "100%", but nothing a little "varnish" can't fix...

I mean, it's nothing like the Spanish Jesus fiasco:

Spoiler

pg-34-botched-job-1-ap.jpg.abe9d9a18a554c689ba5833a2c1edde1.jpg

 

It's like making out Outlaw King to be Braveheart. They tried... The final result wasn't too shabby. 

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Just as you say: They put an incredible amount of work into it, all to no avail. You can always tell that it is inauthentic if the white reference looks superior to the coloured reconstruction - these people travel all over the world, even in famous exhibitions I see their "reconstructions" everywhere, and the public swallows it. As long as they make career and money with it, I have little compassion, when they "sell" it to the public as authentic and are quoted in the New York Times and big magazines.


I only really care about giving off this kind of advice here, because YOU can avoid this kind of embarrassing mistake. 0 A.D. is better than the rest. Better make sure your incredible amounts of work here fare better than the Spanish Jesus, or the "reconstructed colourings". Here are two more links that can show you how badly this kind of non-sense can escalate:

http://virtualreconstruction.com/wp/?p=605

http://virtualreconstruction.com/wp/?p=579

Avoid that 0 A.D. ends up looking like that. I am sorry for this fellow, but the Greeks and Romans would have laughed at the abject quality like you laugh at the Jesus reconstruction.
 

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Hmmm,

So you consider this laughable non-sense of an abject quality? 

Artemision.jpg.e4801c06de22b2e6f2fb624ffa09eb83.jpg

celsus_library_2_virtual_reconstruction.jpg.c477d746914a2ecdf86cc8dd5bed8ac3.jpg

 

Again, seems a bit harsh (especially considering that guy reconstructed the actual city of Ephesus for Nat Geo, not just those two buildings)

Ephesus_reconstruction.jpg.cf80f9fd8c45cb7104fe0e9a9e5fc420.jpg

I'm actually quite enjoying his website :) http://virtualreconstruction.com/wp/?paged=1

True, the color schemes might not be historically attested, as indicated by the artist himself, but I think those renders look really great, regardless. Historians and most self respecting history enthusiasts know that many details, especially things like color schemes, finishings and props in artist renditions are something to be cautious about. Where this particular artist didn't get the colors exactly right, he made up for in 3 dimensional awesomeness. But I guess that's just my opinion. Don't get me wrong, we should always strive for the highest level of accuracy, colors included. I just don't think artists and even researchers should be derided for not getting every single color exactly perfect. Constructive criticisms are better. Explaining exactly which colors are wrong, and how they should be improved in future iterations is far more valuable for artists. Historical reconstructions including artists renditions are often works in progress, that are revised (or redone), or can serve as inspiration for improvements by future artists as more information becomes available. 

Edited by Sundiata
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You can find some interesting papers with different views on academia.edu about this subject.
 
True Colours: Polychromy in Ancient Greek Art and its Dissemination in Museum Collections

https://www.academia.edu/37712353/True_Colours_Polychromy_in_Ancient_Greek_Art_and_its_Dissemination_in_Museum_Collections

Pigment vs. the Texture and Colour of Stone. To what Extent was Stone part of the polychrome Appearance of Hellenistic Sculpture?
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Abstract
White is the first colour which comes to mind when
one thinks of ancient Mediterranean art.[…]. Although it is now a well-established
fact that ancient sculpture and architecture
were painted, much more scientific research is still
needed.
New scientific methods, especially in the
natural sciences, can contribute with new knowledge
of e.g. pigment identification, binding media,
and painting techniques, so that we can reach even
higher levels in the understanding of ancient polychromy.
The present paper examines some of the
recent work and methods on the study of the polychromy
of ancient Mediterranean artefacts carried
out at the Ny Carlsberg Glyptotek as well as the dissemination
of these results to the wider public.

as I guessed.

------ maybe I should open a topic with this topic in the reference forum.--------

 

 

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6 hours ago, Genava55 said:
You can find some interesting papers with different views on academia.edu about this subject.
 
True Colours: Polychromy in Ancient Greek Art and its Dissemination in Museum Collections

https://www.academia.edu/37712353/True_Colours_Polychromy_in_Ancient_Greek_Art_and_its_Dissemination_in_Museum_Collections

Pigment vs. the Texture and Colour of Stone. To what Extent was Stone part of the polychrome Appearance of Hellenistic Sculpture?

 

I had rather hoped no-one would post that... I was at the glyptotek in Copenhagen just two weeks ago on a weekend trip to see Hellenistic statuary, there the polychrome "masterpiece" reconstructions were placed clearly on display as well. I will not go into further detail, look at the Mars painted at the Casa della Venere and convince yourselves with the evidence of the two samples I posted above, it should suffice amply. In general, look at the extant architectural colourings, and just see that the Macedonian tomb facades I posted - some of which had been posted by @Lion.Kanzen earlier - constitute representative standard examples of Hellenistic colour schemes, in contrast to other ghastly travesty-reconstructions.

Classical-hellenistic Greece or Disneyland, the choice is yours; I think I presented as good a case as can be expected in a serious evidence-based debate.

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FULL STOP AND WARNING, those "sculpture colour reconstructions" and the entire series they are from are useless.

please solid evidence. if you insist to be that way, probably you will be ignored. 

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Essentially you can't be blamed for taking the bait that these are realistic-to-somewhat-realistic - after all, the pigments used have been found.on actual statues.

The problem is that finding a pigment and then just applying it in large masses unto a marble statue copy is just a huge fiasco, because they should have found the best artists in the world and had them do it, and should have carried out a complete survey of extant examples. Obviously they missed the examples I just posted, and many more, and are woefully inadequately informed about the high level classical painting had achieved. Perhaps 1% of Pompeii's sample represents the best work of antiquity, 99% consisted of mediocre work. These statues however of the classical/Alexandrian golden age are all in the top 1% - that is why they were copied over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.

There was a decline in quality of workmanship, but it is certain that private individuals in Pompeii could not afford to hire Apelles or Praxiteles equivalents. But they could afford the best regional painters, or some regional painters, to do the best they could at copying the famous works exhibited around the Hellenistic world, or successor collections. What I need you to do is move on, and accept the veracity of this observation, which is meant to help you in achieving your laudable goal.

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With all due respect @Lion.Kanzen you posted a whole collection of those bad reconstructions with the text "Very complete variety of colored statues. Gods in color" in the other thread, without any kind of critical remark to accompany them, you also posted the Pompeian Triclinium of Villa of Mysteries and its super-highquality workmanship in this thread, yet you still refuse to contrast the two.

See the obvious.

I hope none of us will be ignored, but if it must be then I hope that people will listen to the rational argument set forth in an academic manner and polite and correct English. I never attacked you the way you attack me, I politely criticize some ideas that are set forth, and abstain from personal attacks and try to remain friendly. Those who will remain obstinate in defiance of evidence presented in a friendly manner will never deepen their understanding of anything

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The problem is that finding a pigment and then just applying it in large masses unto a marble statue copy is just a huge fiasco.

better, i love that. sense. but you have sources, the common sense is good but is needed contrast the evidence.

I mean the detractors.

-------------------

by the way you have an example of Hellenistic fresco, even if is digital.

 

Just now, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

With all due respect @Lion.Kanzen you posted a whole collection of those bad reconstructions with the text "Very complete variety of colored statues. Gods in color" in the other thread, without any kind of critical remark to accompany them, you also posted the Pompeian Triclinium of Villa of Mysteries and its super-highquality workmanship in this thread, yet you still refuse to contrast the two.

See the obvious.

I hope none of us will be ignored, but if it must be then I hope that people will listen to the rational argument set forth in an academic manner and polite and correct English. I never attacked you the way you attack me, I politely criticize some ideas that are set forth, and abstain from personal attacks and try to remain friendly. Those who will remain obstinate in defiance of evidence presented in a friendly manner will never deepen their understanding of anything

we work with sources, is our method no my choice.

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The Alexander mosaic and the nile mosaic are just mosaic copies of Hellenistic paintings, many other examples could be mentioned;

I do have direct fresco paitings, all of the Macedonian tomb paintings from the Alexandrian golden age are direct examples, many of them quite well preserved to show true colourschemes. I even posted several of them already, will post later again all that I have right here without my main harddisk.

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5 minutes ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

The Alexander mosaic and the nile mosaic are just mosaic copies of Hellenistic paintings, many other examples could be mentioned;

I do have direct fresco paitings, all of the Macedonian tomb paintings from the Alexandrian golden age are direct examples, many of them quite well preserved to show true colourschemes. I even posted several of them already, will post later again all that I have right here without my main harddisk.

we can be patience to wait, can be nice split each topic, buildings, style (Hellenistic from…), then periods, etc.

 

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As long as we can find our way back to a good tone among us. I am harsh and relentless in my criticism of these reconstructions, but that does not mean that I am in any way attacking fellow debaters in this forum at all. Yes I very unkindly attack these glyptotek "scholars" and say that their PhD is not worth the paper it is written on, but that is the advantage of this forum that the glyptotek girls will not care what "some dude on a forum with a Greek alias" writes, and we can get this subject behind us. For I do not believe in wasting my life publishing articles attacking these reconstructions, time is too precious, and it is better to create something better yourself and be part of the future, which this game is. I use my university education in European art history for several projects like this one, that actually reach the youth of our time. The scholars should be our servants, and it is irritating when they just want to build their "careers" and publish flawed work so they can get their own exhibition on, because their father is the golf buddy of the director, or the vicechairman of the board.

But reason is our ally, friends. "Alexander" also had historians on set, and look what a travesty that turned into. Apart from a few scenes (check out Kilmer's excellent Philippos, arrival-of-Greek-princess-at-Macedonian-court-scene, they got the building exteriors and cart and colours right for once!, audience shots at macedon-theatre scene, macedonian soldiers in battle and on mountain-top, and a few others) this is 97% complete trash. Reason can defeat trash. The Nile mosaic is 0% trash.

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Don't worry too much about the tone. Lion isn't a native english speaker, and most of the time what can be understood as a harsh tone is just plain mistranslation from spanish :) (And he improved a lot :))

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3 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

Don't worry too much about the tone. Lion isn't a native english speaker, and most of the time what can be understood as a harsh tone is just plain mistranslation from spanish :) (And he improved a lot :))

add even I'm not too much to write even in my language or to write. my intellligence is focus in visual area. 

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On 12/30/2018 at 9:55 PM, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

Transcription should be standardized to 350 B.C. Attic - otherwise it will confuse more than it helps. It is already super complicated as it is.
 

The classical Greek of the 4th century was the Greek of all the great figures, all the way until late antiquity. This is what higher education taught, this is what the pronounciation-manuals were written to standardize. Koine is based on high-style Attic.

Therefore you want to STANDARDIZE your transcription (unit/building name tags etc.) and pronounciation as follows:

Β β - beta, as in "Bike!" translit.: B
Γ γ - gamma, as in "Greek"  --- two ΓΓ creates "ng" sound, hence ΑΓΓΕΛΟΙ ("angeloi", messengers/angels) translit.: G/NG
Ε ε - epsilon, as in German "sehr" translit.: E
Ζ ζ - dzeta/zdeta, either pronounced "ds" or "sd"! translit.: Z
Η η - heta, as in "hell" translit.: E
Θ θ - theta, as in "tax" translit.: TH
Ξ ξ - ksi, as in "axis" translit.: X
Ο ο - omikron, as in German "Sohn" translit.: O
Π π - pi, as b in english "blister" translit.: P
Ρ ρ - rho, rolled as in Italian "Roma" translit.: RH
Τ τ - tau, as in "astonished" translit.: T
Υ υ - ypsilon, as in German "für" translit.: Y
Φ φ - phi, as in "please" translit.: PH
Χ χ -  chi, as c in "casting" translit.: CH
Ψ ψ - psi, as in "epilepsytranslit.: PS
Ω ω - omega, as in "sloooooow" translit.: O
The letter "U" did not exist. The Greeks wrote ΟΥ, sounding as in "moon" (ΜΟΥΝ!). translit.: OU

Antiquity used ONLY CAPITAL LETTERS. (The small letters are included here for your convenience.)
The sound "F" did not exist at all, nor did the "th" of "the". If you hear it, you know it is not Greek from antiquity.
(Finally you want to avoid the later variant signs ω for Ω-omega, and C for Σ-sigma, on inscriptions or in artwork!)

Thank you for your expertise!

Can you add IPA to pronunciation notes like these? This way, it will be clear which sounds are actually meant rather than substituting to sounds of modern languages that are somewhat similar but not the same really. It would enable people who do no know these languages the chance of doing recordings. For example, from your description, omikron looks like [oː] (a long vowel) and omega looks like [ow] (a diphthong), is this correct?

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1 hour ago, GunChleoc said:

Thank you for your expertise!

Can you add IPA to pronunciation notes like these? This way, it will be clear which sounds are actually meant rather than substituting to sounds of modern languages that are somewhat similar but not the same really. It would enable people who do no know these languages the chance of doing recordings. For example, from your description, omikron looks like [oː] (a long vowel) and omega looks like [ow] (a diphthong), is this correct?

Here you go:

Consonants:

β, π, φ, ψ are pronounced b, p, pʰ, ps
γ, κ, χ, ξ are pronounced g, k, kʰ, ks, exception: γ before {γ, κ, χ, ξ, μ, ν} is ŋ
δ, τ, θ, ζ are pronounced d, t, tʰ, dz/zd (ζ is debated, there are decent arguments for and against both options)

σ/ς is s

λ, μ, ν, ρ are l, m, n, rʰ

Vowels, monophthongs, and diphthongs:

α, αι, ᾳ, αυ are a/aː, ai̯, aːi̯, au̯/aːu̯ (yes, αι and ᾳ are different)
ε, ει are e, eː
η, ῃ, ηυ are ɛː, ɛːi̯, ɛːu̯
ι is i or iː
ο, ου, οι are o, oː, oi̯
υ, υι are y/yː, yi̯
ω, ῳ are ɔː, ɔːi̯

Basically, α, ι and υ can be long or short (dictionaries distinguish between ᾱ, ῑ, ῡ and ᾰ, ῐ, ῠ, text editions don't), ε and ο are always short (ει and ου are their long counterparts), η and ω are always long (no short equivalents).

Word-initial vowels:

ἀ (lenis): no aspiration
ἁ (asper): aspiration, i.e. h+vowel

Accentuation:

ά (acute): rising tone
ᾶ (circumflex): rising then falling tone
(grave): falling tone

Edited by Nescio
ce
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