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Alexandermb

===[COMMITTED]=== Celtic Unit Helmets

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3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Yeah I was thinking about this. A lot of people confuse Coolus C-E helmets with Celtic helmets.

It is why I see often the same models both in iron and in bronze. It is not a problem for monterfortino helmets but for others it should be avoided (for example Berru helmets exist only in bronze).

These ones?

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Civ%3A_Britons

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Civ%3A_Gauls

 

no, romans can use celtic helmets in Caesar timeframe.

image.png.e766126c8f4ef76a27ed172a7aa349cc.png

Quote


The Agen type of helmet has Gallic Celtic origins, but it was adopted by the Romans of the late Republican era who saw the inherent protection and utility of this practical warrior’s helm. The conical dome helps deflect the force of blows to the head, and the brim gives good protection to the head by catching impacts farther away from the head; it also acts as a visor to shade the eyes of the wearer from direct sunlight. The cheekplates give the side of the head a good measure of protection as well

 

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1 minute ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

The Agen type of helmet has Gallic Celtic origins, but it was adopted by the Romans of the late Republican era who saw the inherent protection and utility of this practical warrior’s helm. The conical dome helps deflect the force of blows to the head, and the brim gives good protection to the head by catching impacts farther away from the head; it also acts as a visor to shade the eyes of the wearer from direct sunlight. The cheekplates give the side of the head a good measure of protection as well

Actually we have no proofs of these borrowing. These helmets are pretty rare. Moreover, Kultofathena are making up their opinion from nothing since they even mess up with the helmet typology. It is not an Agen helmet (which look like a Alesia type) but a "Forêt de Rouvray" type.

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Just now, Genava55 said:

Actually we have no proofs of these borrowing. These helmets are pretty rare. Moreover, Kultofathena are making up their opinion from nothing since they even mess up with the helmet typology. It is not an Agen helmet (which look like a Alesia type) but a "Forêt de Rouvray" type.

but can be used by Romans. because loot equipament in battle. in gallic wars?

Caesarian is heavy influenced by celtic helmets.

image.png.fa6d9fe5806931bf31a7167e9a7a697b.png

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14 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

but can be used by Romans. because loot equipament in battle. in gallic wars?

In theory yes. But in practice we don't have any proof... There are some burials with Celtic and Roman weapons mixed but they are from the post-Gallic Wars period and probably represent auxiliaries.

15 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Caesarian is heavy influenced by celtic helmets. 

The Coolus-Mannheim origin is unknown and specialist like Michel Feugère thinks it is a helmet from Roman tradition. We don't know if this helmet is used by both Celtic and Roman warriors as an usual helmet. The Coolus-Mannheim could really be an evolution of the previous Montefortino.

My point of view is that I disagree with Feugère's position. Firstly because he is a "Roman Supremacist" and can be excessive on his positions. For example he said that the helmets type Port aren't from a Gallic tradition but from a Gallo-Roman tradition, criticizing the idea that Gallic helmets were the sources of inspiration for the imperial helmets. Gladly, new findings in Gergovia prove him wrong by showing the existence of the type Port during the Gallic Wars in native burials. In my opinion, the Coolus-Mannheim comes from Gallia Narbonensis and is a helmet used by the early Gallo-Roman auxiliaries. The basic design is clearly similar with the Late montefortino helmet and with its successor the Buggenum, both without paragnathids, but the absence of the top tip is probably from a local tradition (there is a celtic relief depicting a similar helmet but with paragnathids). Julius Caesar is the proconsul of Gallia Narbonensis and he got a lot of issues with Rome during his campaign. It should have been much easier for him to produce these helmets to supply his legionaries and his auxiliaries.

 

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Helmet type Alésia - 1st century BC

image.png.d35ef39e362a86b529cdc7281db240df.png

image.png.ad75c98fd7dfb501759d993db7289ff2.png

image.png.f770fb33e5a22e6dd324226b2ef9fc5e.png

image.png.40ada7928e8806ab30a7657d97bb4a1a.png

 

Helmet type Agen - 1st century BC

image.png.7989d8d04fff45fa73e55fcde7e4a8fd.png

image.thumb.png.cd3ef4e5388e84b599a58c9b03ba8531.png

Helmet type Forêt de Rouvray - 1st century BC

image.thumb.png.e2ed196b33dd039cbe7103c388a8c87c.png

image.jpeg.f5a02ec4aea11db677745d1de86a8e6b.jpeg

Helmet variante of Forêt de Louviers - 1st century BC

image.png.3c816aee105fe1d7cc724cfc5eacfdc0.png

Helmet type Port - 1st century BC

image.png.3b5c8b6d6baf0760c46cc4c5e5940ffa.pngimage.png.23d6de4be7b0fc46d839805fe15546ca.png

image.png.8906a010c754c0ae87f0cd0204a0f777.png

image.jpeg.e75453138b2cde8c8dca5c9f2eb70049.jpegimage.jpeg.4c98367176c4663bb6e1ba440cf86079.jpegimage.jpeg.22421fa8db27f7f0461ae6772e5ae8de.jpeg

image.thumb.png.fcd549c36cee926cedf39b08cd1f861d.png

Helmet type Port variant of Mihovo:

 image.png.7c8a063a464cbf105ea1b993b1df1cd6.png

image.png.0a18fe00812fb750fd781a250835fdbc.png

image.thumb.png.e2f9229ab2b1bb9beca5fc35f7bc523d.png

Helmet type Siemiechowa (Poland) - 1st century BC

image.png.841ccf1755151f862f53f02e533c5d1b.pngimage.png.3c4b2d5056ff86429e1dfda6e8a7bc85.png

image.png.30efe45ccb10b0918553e90ce6abb47e.png

Helmet type Mihovo - 1st century BC

image.png.e48cf2d97af92265206958934e2a5714.png

image.png.cfb1cd4aedfb31ff62987e57f1f87327.png

image.png.0bcd845652c45efa462ec44cd83cc7bb.png

image.thumb.png.99377efe0f64e3514d5af6b409bfc346.png

 

Helmet type Boé - 1st century BC

image.thumb.jpeg.4dc1e66ec092288d5e8f17edce594451.jpeg

image.thumb.jpeg.a1427abe7fde28f39f8f218f6999b89b.jpeg

image.png.5369bdb2d77048d2299dc753b8960123.png

 

 

 

Edited by Genava55
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Origin of the Coolus-Mannheim? Here a native Southern Gallic helmet, type Toulouse-Estarac in iron - 100/70  BC :

image.png.07a6ae72d2e5bff626219d7e4addbc07.png

image.png.56c191e950cb6a3db6ce979aa1903769.png

image.png.7f25c4c4d7091e9783eb4f68f6346d6f.png

Edited by Genava55

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On 8/28/2018 at 9:07 PM, Alexandermb said:

@Genava55 i remember use some of the references you are sharing in the making of the helmets, feel free to try the mod and have a closer look.

Millennium A.D.?

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Ah. Basically it is this:

On 6/11/2018 at 12:10 AM, Alexandermb said:

image.thumb.png.fd9c86c845e4428391b89bd82d8f0441.png

Your work is very nice. The Alésia (C), the Coolus (B) and the Montefortino (D-H) seem correct to me (besides the use of bronze for Alésia helmet and the use of iron for Coolus helmet). Which helmet is the A with the little thing on the top?

Just a word about the color, it exists hundreds of copper alloys and modern helmet replicas are based on copper/zinc alloys, not bronze (copper/tin). Copper/zinc helmet existed but mostly during the Roman Empire and not for all helmets. Today, it exist two major bronze types used: Tin Bronze and Phosphor Bronze. Tin Bronze is the only one known during ancient times and generally with tin percentage between 6 to 10%.

https://copperalliance.org.uk/about-copper/copper-alloys/

Tin Bronze with 10-12% of tin:

http://www.metalreference.com/CU_907.html

Corinthian Helmet in good condition:

image.thumb.png.c80e04133260791457c139828db71bb3.png

 

 

Edited by Genava55
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@wackyserious

30 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Just a word about the color, it exists hundreds of copper alloys and modern helmet replicas are based on copper/zinc alloys, not bronze (copper/tin). Copper/zinc helmet existed but mostly during the Roman Empire and not for all helmets. Today, it exist two major bronze types used: Tin Bronze and Phosphor Bronze. Tin Bronze is the only one known during ancient times and generally with tin percentage between 6 to 10%.

He could make changes with colour easily.

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45 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Not sure where to put this. But battersea shield's baked shadows look upside down. Looks like inverted nipple. ;) 

screenshot0003.thumb.png.adfd7004f6247f492166090acbd3647d.png

 

Perhaps just remove the baked shadow and rely on self shadowing.

Shadows alwasy bake or they will look plain:

inverted the mesh:

Spoiler

image.png

 

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14 minutes ago, Alexandermb said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone some iberians use the celtic berru type helmets too ?

The berru type should be exclusive to the Gauls but the montefortino helmets are widespread in the Celtic cultures of the iberian peninsula and also in the region of modern Catalunya (Illergetes and Indiketes).

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11 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

69d057d20774fa5b6cb8544d4dd8074a--invicta-roma.jpg.36b97ebf171e4809c589961f44ee49ad.jpg

This looking badass, this Alesia helmet.

It looks like a variante of a Forêt de Louviers helmet. But yes, the helmet is badass. image.png.2481aaef0cd8ebd417be2cf611a184ae.png

20 minutes ago, Alexandermb said:

@Genava55 and this ones:
 

  Hide contents

 

Not all of them but yes, you got the idea. To be helpful here a picture of some helmets found in Spain:
image.thumb.png.1ce0dd1090eadc4a21ddd7edcc82e476.png

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On 12/29/2018 at 4:19 PM, Genava55 said:

It looks like a variante of a Forêt de Louviers helmet. But yes, the helmet is badass. image.png.2481aaef0cd8ebd417be2cf611a184ae.png

i've did this helmet in another topic, is there any unit available ingame that could use it?

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So, to assign these to the unit actors, I think each helmet should be listed and their provenance detailed, then they can be assigned accordingly. KnowwhatImean (unless there is already a thread like this that I missed)? Kind of like this:

celt_helmet_agris: Western France, 350 BC. I suggest for the Gallic hero Brennus. His current Waterloo helmet should probably go to a Britons hero. 

celt_helmet_berru: Central Europe (Austria) Late Hallstatt (500 BC). Uncertain that this can be used. Bueller? Bueller? 

celt_helmet_ciumesti: Eastern Europe (Romania), Mid-La Tene. Elite unit?

celt_helmet_ciumesti_raven: Eastern Europe (Romania), Mid-La Tene. Gallic hero Viridomarus

celt_helmet_classic_coolus: Southern France? Mid-Late La Tene? Gallic Champion Infantry? Can have some plumed variants?

celt_helmet_coolus: France, Northern Italy. Late La Tene. Gallic Spear Infantry?

celt_helmet_marne: Northeast France. Time period? Unit?

celt_helmet_montefortino: Southern France, Northern Italy. Late La Tene. Unit?

celt_helmet_peaked: Britain, early Empire. Perhaps rename to celt_helmet_meyrick to be more precise? Britons infantry?

celt_helmet_port: France. Late La Tene. Gallic Champion Cavalry.

celt_helmet_waterloo: River Thames, Southern Britain. Mid-Late La Tene. Briton Hero? 

 

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
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